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    • Morning, I purchased a car from Big Motoring World on 10th December 2023 for £14899.00. On the 15th December I had a problem with the auto start stop function of the car in which the car would stop in the middle of the road with a stop start error message. I called the big assist and the car was booked in for February. The BMW was with them for a week and it came back with the auto stop start feature all fine and all error codes cleared on the report from big motoring world. within 5 days I had the same issue. Warning light coming on and the car stopping. I called big assist again and the car was again booked in for an other repair in May. Car was taken back in may, they had the car for a week and returned with the report saying no issue with the auto stop start feature and blamed my driving. Within 5 days of having the car back it broke down again. This time undrivable. I had the rac pick my car up and take to Stephen James BMW for a full diagnostic. The diagnostic came back with the car needing a new fuel system as magnetic swarf was found.  I have sent big motoring world a letter stating all the issues and that under the consumer rights act 2015 I have asked for a replacement vehicle. all reports from Stephen James BMW have been sent over to big motoring world. Big motoring world have come back and said they will respond to my complaint within 14 days for the date of my complaint letter. I am not feeling confident on the response from them, what are my next steps?   Thanks in advance. 
    • That is really good is that a mistake last off "driver doesn't have a licence" I assume that should be keeper? The Court requested me to send the Court and applicant proof of my sons disability from their GP this clearly shows he has Severe Mental Impairement, he is also illiterate.  I naively assumed once the applicant received this that they would drop the claim.  It offends me that Bank has asked the Judge to throw the case out at the preliminary hearing and to make us pay up.
    • Hi, we are looking to get some opinions on weather or not to bother fighting this PCN. This comes from a very big retail park parking where there are restaurants, hotel, amongst other businesses. The parking is free but I suppose there must be a time limit on it that I am not aware of. We were in the area for around 4 hours. Makes us wonder how they deal with people staying in the hotel as the ANPR is on what appears to be a publicly maintained street (where london buses run) which leads to the different parking areas including the hotel.  1 Date of the infringement 26/05/2024 2 Date on the NTK  31/05/2024 3 Date received 07/06/2024 4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]  YES 5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Entry and exit photos however, based on the photographs we are almost sure the photos are taken on public street. This is the location I believe photos are taken from.  https://maps.app.goo.gl/eii8zSmFFhVZDRpbA 6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] No Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A 7 Who is the parking company? UKPA. UK Parking Administration LTD 8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] The Colonnades, Croydon, CR0 4RQ For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. British Parking Association (BPA) Thanks in advance for any assistance.  UKPA PCN The Collonades-redacted.pdf
    • Thank you for posting their WS. If we start with the actual WS made by the director one would have doubts that they had even read PoFA let alone understood it. Point 10  we only have the word of the director that the contract has been extended. I should have had the corroboration of the Client. Point 12 The Judge HHJ Simkiss was not the usual Judge on motoring cases and his decisions on the necessity of contracts did not align with PoFA. In Schedule 4 [1[ it is quite clearly spelt out- “relevant contract” means a contract (including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land) between the driver and a person who is—(a)the owner or occupier of the land; or (b authorised, under or  by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land; And the laughable piece of paper from the land owners cannot be described as a contract. I respectfully ask that the case be dismissed as there is no contract. WE do not even know what the parking regulations are which is really basic. It is respectfully asked that without a valid contract the case cannot continue. One would imagine that were there a valid contract it would have been produced.  So the contract that Bank has with the motorist must come from the landowner. Bank on their own cannot impose their own contract. How could a director of a parking company sign a Statement of Truth which included Point 11. Point 14. There is no offer of a contract at the entrance to the car park. Doubtful if it is even an offer to treat. The entrance sign sign does not comply with the IPC Code of Conduct nor is there any indication that ANPR cameras are in force. A major fault and breach of GDPR. Despite the lack of being offered a contract at the entrance [and how anyone could see what was offered by way of a contract in the car park is impossible owing to none of the signs in the WS being at all legible] payment was made for the car to park. A young person in the car made the payment. But before they did that, they helped an elderly lady to make her payment as she was having difficulty. After arranging payment for the lady the young lad made his payment right behind. Unfortunately he entered the old lady's number again rather than paying .for the car he was in. This can be confirmed by looking at the Allow List print out on page 25. The defendant's car arrived at 12.49 and at 12.51 and 12.52  there are two payments for the same vrm. This was also remarked on by the IPC adjudicator when the PCN was appealed.  So it is quite disgraceful that Bank have continued to pursue the Defendant knowing that it was a question of  entering the wrong vrm.  Point 21 The Defendant is not obliged to name the driver, they are only invited to do so under S9[2][e]. Also it is unreasonable to assume that the keeper is the driver. The Courts do not do that for good reason. The keeper in this case does not have a driving licence. Point 22. The Defendant DID make a further appeal which though it was also turned down their reply was very telling and should have led to the charge being dropped were the company not greedy and willing to pursue the Defendant regardless of the evidence they had in their own hands. Point 23 [111] it's a bit rich asking the Defendant to act justly and at proportionate cost while acting completely unjustly themselves and then adding an unlawful 70% on to the invoice. This  is despite PoFA S4[5] (5)The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper by virtue of the right conferred by this paragraph is the amount specified in the notice to keeper under paragraph 9[2][d].  Point 23 [1v] the Director can deny all he wants but the PCN does not comply with PoFA. S9 [2][a] states  (2)The notice must— (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates; The PCN only quotes the ANPR arrival and departure times which obviously includes a fair amount of driving between the two cameras. Plus the driver and passengers are a mixture of disabled and aged persons who require more time than just a young fit single driver to exit the car and later re enter. So the ANPR times cannot be the same as the required parking period as stipulated in the ACT. Moreover in S9[2][f]  (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid; You will note that in the PCN the words in parentheses are not included but at the start of Section 9 the word "must" is included. As there are two faults in the PCN it follows that Bank cannot pursue the keeper . And as the driver does not have a driving licence their case must fail on that alone. And that is not even taking into consideration that the payment was made. Point 23 [v] your company is wrong a payment was made. very difficult to prove a cash payment two weeks later when the PCN arrives. However the evidence was in your print out for anyone to see had they actually done due diligence prior to writing to the DVLA. Indeed as the Defendant had paid there was no reasonable cause to have applied for the keeper details. Point 24 the Defendant did not breach the contract. The PCN claimed the Defendant failed to make a payment when they had made a payment.   I haven't finished yet but that is something to start with
    • You don't appeal to anyone. You haven't' received a demand from a statutory body like the council, the police or the courts. It's just a dodgy cowboy company trying it on. You simply don't pay.  In the vast majority of these cases the company deforest the Amazon with threats about how they are going to divert a drone from Ukraine and make it land on your home - but in the end they do nothing.
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      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
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Urgent help regarding charging order **WON CHARGE REMOVED**


hammyhound
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This comment may be of use to you though - Hopefully pt will confirm this.

 

 

Thats right but you need to have made the application for redetermination before the Claimant has made the application for the interim charging order..............thats why its important to be quick off the mark & not let them obtain judgment by default in the full amount.

You may receive different advice to your query as people have different experiences and opinions. Please use your own judgement in deciding whose advice to take.

 

If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional. Any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability.

 

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Thats right but you need to have made the application for redetermination before the Claimant has made the application for the interim charging order..............thats why its important to be quick off the mark & not let them obtain judgment by default in the full amount.

 

If you read the case they are referring to, it specifically addresses whether the court can issue an interim charging order - so the application date isn't relevant, its all about when the court considers the request for the order.

 

I'm guessing they've either got their dates mixed up or more likely, they're trying it on in the hope all the legal talk will confuse you and that you drop it.

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If my memory serves me correct Judgment forthwith 25th September, Judgment (by its own motion) for the court to consider instalments dated 25th September listed for 10th October, their application made/typed 2nd October hearing 15th November.

 

I have had a telephone call from National Debtline who want to know my next move as they are very interested in the case given that they are telling people they will be okay in court.

 

HH

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that in the case of Ropaigealach V Allied Irish Bank CA Nov 2001 where an instalment order is made AFTER an interim charging order has been made, a court has the jurisdiction to make a Charging Order final.

 

This is where I am getting totally confused.

 

My instalment order was made on 10th October.

 

Their application although dated 2nd October was not heard until 15th November.

 

Is this good for me.

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Josie's post mentions this:-

 

Thats right but you need to have made the application for redetermination before the Claimant has made the application for the interim charging order..............thats why its important to be quick off the mark & not let them obtain judgment by default in the full amount.

 

What is redetermination, is that the judgment I have listing the hearing for 10th October for instalment payments. In that case it was the same day as the judgment forthwith.

 

I am really getting confused now.

 

Can someone help and clarify.

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Can someone help and clarify.

I'll have a go HH, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

The claimants puts in a claim for the whole amount.

 

You submit your defence including any offer of payment.

 

The claimant refuses your offer and is therefore granted "Judgment Forthwith" by default.

 

You appeal against the "Judgement Forthwith" and that goes to a "Redertimination" hearing.

 

I think I'm correct but hopefully other Cagers will confirm.

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I think you've got them beaten on both angles;

 

- the application for the instalment order was made (albeit by the court) before the application for the interim charging order.

- the court order for the instalment order was made before the interim charging order.

 

If it was me, I'd ask for the charging order to be dismissed based on the court order dates (with the application dates as a fall back, if they bring it up) and ask for costs (along with a refund of what you've had to pay them already).

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Obviously I haven't received the hearing date yet but want to make absolutely certain they don't throw anything else at me. After the last hearing I want to be much stronger in my defence and not the gibbering wreck I was.

 

If what Blueboy is saying and I am not doubting him this hearing could really go in my favour I just want somebody to say yes that is correct what Blueboy is saying, they can't go for a charging order due to the dates and that I can claim costs together with the £100 Im about to pay them

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Thanks VG,

 

I did not apply for the redetermination hearing, the court did it of its own motion. The claimants also seem to think I requested it as well, they should read the judgment properly.

 

By the way good luck VG, I am glad I brought this up which may be of help to you. I wouldnt mention the case unless it is brought up by the other side and possibly use the same argument that blueboy has mentioned, but does that apply to you, sorry I havent read all of your recent thread been totally focused on trying to work this one out.

 

Good luck and report back.

 

HH

Edited by hammyhound
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I'm not a legal expert and my posts are based solely on reading the judgement that they referred to.

 

I just read the previous letter from their solicitors which referred to this and they specifically state their case is based on the fact that their application was made before the instalment order was issued.

 

I still can't see how the application date is relevant, as the issue is whether the court can issue an interim charging order or not - this is what the judgement they refer to states. The court couldn't / shouldn't have issued an interim charging order as at that point in time the instalment order was in place.

 

Do you have any way of checking this point with a solicitor, ie what date is relevant with the interim charging order (the application date, or the date the court considers / issues it)? Maybe the Citizens Advice Bureau, or do you qualify for free legal assistance? You could also make sure you turn up early to discuss this point with the duty solicitor, or whoever it is that is there for people without representation.

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I'm not a legal expert and my posts are based solely on reading the judgement that they referred to.

 

I just read the previous letter from their solicitors which referred to this and they specifically state their case is based on the fact that their application was made before the instalment order was issued.

 

I still can't see how the application date is relevant, as the issue is whether the court can issue an interim charging order or not - this is what the judgement they refer to states. The court couldn't / shouldn't have issued an interim charging order as at that point in time the instalment order was in place.

 

Do you have any way of checking this point with a solicitor, ie what date is relevant with the interim charging order (the application date, or the date the court considers / issues it)? Maybe the Citizens Advice Bureau, or do you qualify for free legal assistance? You could also make sure you turn up early to discuss this point with the duty solicitor, or whoever it is that is there for people without representation.

 

 

If your application for redetermination is made before they make an application for a charging order then as long as you keep to your monthly payments they will not be able to get an interim and final charging order.

 

If however they get their application in first then even though you are allowed to pay by instalments they will be able to have the interim charging order made final.

 

This is why it is important not to let a creditor get a judgment for the full amount payable immediately.

 

Sorry if its not what you wanted to hear

You may receive different advice to your query as people have different experiences and opinions. Please use your own judgement in deciding whose advice to take.

 

If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional. Any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability.

 

If you think I have been helpful PLEASE click the scales

 

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If your application for redetermination is made before they make an application for a charging order then as long as you keep to your monthly payments they will not be able to get an interim and final charging order.

 

If however they get their application in first then even though you are allowed to pay by instalments they will be able to have the interim charging order made final.

 

This is why it is important not to let a creditor get a judgment for the full amount payable immediately.

 

Sorry if its not what you wanted to hear

 

What happens if the court itself (of "its own initiative") orders a hearing to consider payments by instalment? Is the date of the order (for the hearing) taken as the application date for payments by instalment?

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What happens if the court itself (of "its own initiative") orders a hearing to consider payments by instalment? Is the date of the order (for the hearing) taken as the application date for payments by instalment?

 

Yes

You may receive different advice to your query as people have different experiences and opinions. Please use your own judgement in deciding whose advice to take.

 

If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional. Any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability.

 

If you think I have been helpful PLEASE click the scales

 

court bundles for dummies

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Thanks for all your continued support.

 

I checked with the court today and their application was received by the court on 16th October although I dont know of its relevance but the solicitors seem to think that their application dated 2nd October should have been listed with my hearing for instalments. How the hell could it have done when the court did not receive it until 16th October. 6 days after my instalment hearing.

 

I looked at their application again and it is crossed against "judgment was payable forthwith". This again is incorrect as on the same day as that judgment the court listed the instalment hearing for 10th October. It both came in the same envelope. Sorry if I am repeating myself again. Any judge who got that application would see fit to issue an application for a charging order based on a judgment forthwith.

 

HH

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I just read the previous letter from their solicitors which referred to this and they specifically state their case is based on the fact that their application was made before the instalment order was issued..

 

Well we now that is a lie the court did not receive it until 16th October. If and it is a big if, the court goes by the application date, then why did they not put 25th September the date of the judgment forthwith instead of 2nd October. My instalment order was already in place before their application got to court end of as far as I can see.

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Just a quick update folks, sorry to go on.

 

My hearing has been listed for March so I can breath for a few weeks.

 

Their application was definitely received by the court on 16th October. I now have a copy of their letter showing the court's date stamp.

 

I have also found out by the very helpful court staff that the application the Judge listed for the charging order was done so without the court file and this is in my court file so he listed the application on what was put before him ie the application, he did not know there was a judgment in place for the instalment order.

 

This is now the path I am going to take, I suspect they will still rely on the AIB case but after their little speech I will address the judge about the facts I now know and that the Claimant's solicitors have deceived myself and due to the court's fault the application was listed in error. I will show the judge their letter to me stating that the application was made before my redetermination hearing/instalment order hearing and I will also show their letter dated 2nd October enclosing the application showing the date stamp.

 

And then when I win :wink: (here's hoping) I will ask the court for my costs and make a formal complaint about the solicitors involved. It is an obvious attempt at deception.

 

HH

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I know but the Solicitors Regulation Authority have told me that I have to put in everything in detail to the solicitors and I really dont want the solicitors knowing that I am on to them regarding the deception until I reach court as I am sure they will have something else up their sleeve. The complaints officer at the solicitors is the same solicitor dealing with my case so dont know what happens there. I imagine he will tell another load of lies and say my complaint is not justifiable.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well even though I can't afford legal representation a kind and caring lawyer has helped me with this.

 

He says for me to file a witness statement setting out the details I know about their application not being received by the original court until 13th October and then sent to my local court on 16th October. Why they sent it to the original court god only knows.

 

I really don't know whether to file this with the court and the other side before the hearing or just turn up on the day and shove it in the agent's face just before we go into court and pass it to the judge.

 

I would like the judge to be able to read it before the hearing but don't really want the other side seeing it as I am sure they will come up with some other excuse of case law to knock me off my senses.

 

What do people think, any help before I prepare the witness statement would be greatly appreciated. I cannot believe this has turned out to be such a long thread.

 

HH

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He says for me to file a witness statement setting out the details I know about their application not being received by the original court until 13th October and then sent to my local court on 16th October. Why they sent it to the original court god only knows.

 

I really don't know whether to file this with the court and the other side before the hearing or just turn up on the day and shove it in the agent's face just before we go into court and pass it to the judge.

 

I would like the judge to be able to read it before the hearing but don't really want the other side seeing it as I am sure they will come up with some other excuse of case law to knock me off my senses.

 

One of your complaints against them was that they brought in new evidence on the day of the hearing and didn't give you any chance to prepare for it, which resulted in the case being adjourned. If you hold on to your defence until the hearing you're doing exactly the same as they did and I'd have thought there is a good chance the judge will adjourn the hearing again for them to prepare a response.

 

You seem to have a very strong defence, both to the evidence they introduced at the last hearing and against their case in general. I'd have thought that if you get your defence in now there is a good chance they won't bother defending it.

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Just typing up my statement and thought of this again.

 

What happens if the court itself (of "its own initiative") orders a hearing to consider payments by instalment? Is the date of the order (for the hearing) taken as the application date for payments by instalment?

 

Josie replied yes

 

So my redetermination date for instalments was 24th September and my hearing for the instalment payments was 10th October. Why has the judge seen fit allow the "charging order nisi" when:-

 

my instalment order was already in place before the application was even received by the court. Do you think the judge can say I am still allowing the charging order absolute as due to the size of repayments (it would take forever in my case 40 years) to pay off and this way the creditor will obtain the debt quicker when you come to sell your house.

 

HH

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Hi HH,

 

Why has the judge seen fit allow the "charging order nisi"
Because when the claimant's solicitors made the application, the judge will not have been aware of any of the circumstances. You could make the comparison with the initial court claim, the judge won't know what the arguements are from either side are until the trial.

 

Do you think the judge can say I am still allowing the charging order absolute as due to the size of repayments (it would take forever in my case 40 years) to pay off and this way the creditor will obtain the debt quicker when you come to sell your house

 

It's always a possibility. But if the judge agrees that your redetermination hearing preceded their CO application, and you haven't missed any of the payments, then he shouldn't. Whose to say it will take 40 years to pay off. In your present circumstances that might be the case, but nothing stays the same and in a few years you may be in a much better position and able to pay the debt off far quicker.

Edited by DocH

A couple of hundred years ago Meyer Amshel, (1743-1812), founder of the Rothschild dynasty is reported to have told his five sons, “Let me control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws”.

 

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what I have written is my own opinion garnered from reading this forum and consumer legislation, and my own experience of the judicial process.

 

If I have been helpful, please feel free to tickle my scales!!

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Thanks Doc,

 

My redetermination was definitely made before their application so my statement will be based on that and will also mention AIB which the Claimants threw at me before the last hearing and say that it is irrelevant as in that case the application was made before the redetermination hearing.

 

Thanks again.

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