UK Flyer / Help with Natwest

[UK Flyer]

Hi Guys,

 

Only just found this site - could have been useful before but a brief history. I used a personal loan of £25,000 to fund a business venture in 2002. It didn't work out and the business failed. 2004 I couldn't afford the repayments so went into managment with Nat West. I have been paying a regular amount since then. Three years ago my mother in law's partner died. His children wanted his half of their house so six months later I bought them out by using her half as equity and I paid the mortgage on the balance. It was convenient as me and her daughter had split up and it meant we both had somewhere to live. So .... I have been living as an individual in the same house as my mother in law with my half being the mortgage and her half the equity. We split the bills.

 

Nat West are now taking me to court to put a charge on the property for the £17,000 that I still owe them. I have explained the situation to both Incasso and Nat West that in reality the money that is in the house is not mine, however they will not move their position.

 

I got court papers on Oct 22nd. Completed the acknowledgement of service on Nov 2nd online, and submitted a defence online on the Nov 19th..

 

"I have been making regular payments to clear this debt since 2004. Further to a letter dated 5 Feb 2008 from Nat West payments of £160 have been made on a regular basis. Subsequent to my details being passed to Incasso LLP from National Westminster Bank PLC Credit Management Services I have made two further payments of £160 via online banking: 30 September 08 and 07 November 08.

 

On notification of the threat of Court Action I have written to Nat West to review the threat of Court action with an explanation of circumstances, request for true copy of credit agreement. I have also requested copies of, or transcript of, conversations re: case. I have also written to Incasso LLP with a request to review court action with an offer to continue to repay £160 per month and written to Incasso LLP with a request for information to enable me to clarify and confirm that the amount demanded is the ‘true amount’ owed. So far correspondence requesting a true signed copy of my credit agreement and a detailed financial breakdown in relation to the amount borrowed, amount repaid and any additional charges has not been complied with."

 

I am not sure if it is relevant at that stage but I also added dates I was not available to attend court and that should I have to attend court, the hearing be at a court closer to home rather than Northampton.

 

I would just like to clarify something. I have not received a 'true signed copy' of my original agreement. I was sent a computer print out of an unsigned agreement was and a copy of the terms. They stated they were under no obligation to supply a signed copy.

 

I take it that without a 'true signed copy' there is no case to answer. Therefore if that is correct and Nat West cannot prove the debt, is the debt valid and can it be written off...

 

I am not one to normally shirk my responsibilities but I have tried to remain as reasonable as possible making sure that I pay back what I owe. Dealing with the bank is like dealing with a brick wall and their lack of sensitivity in relation to the circumstance has really annoyed me - My mother in law is a pensioner and her house is her retirement fund.

[westendwendy]

*bump*

 

I'm not qualified to answer this post but have bumped it so that someone can take a look.

[UK Flyer]

Things have now advance. I phoned Northampton today to find out what was happening. The case is being moved to my local Court. I am going to represent myself and could do with some advice on the best way of going about it....

[42man]

Flyer what are the particulars of the claim ? (don't be too specific with the numbers though)

[womble72]

Hi Flyer,

 

I am in the same boat, i have got my court date for March and they cant find my true copy and have not been helpful with any of the paperwork so far.

It seems to me the Natwest are hellbent on taking as many people to court now and they will stop at nothing to try there luck.

 

Part of my defence is that if the Natwest cannot provide a true copy then the debt cant be enforceable and should not be taking you to court unless they have the correct paperwork.ie orginal signed agreement.

 

Incasso are the same solictors who are taking me to court. The cag team are great and will guide you through the legal jargon.

 

Good luck and be strong !

Read my thread if that can give you any help. I am no longer a homeowner so that cant pin a charging order on me now but the chances of them doing a charge with you would be slim by what i read on here.

 

Keep your chin up

 

Womble

[UK Flyer]

Flyer what are the particulars of the claim ? (don't be too specific with the numbers though)

 

As per my first entry... c. £17,000 plus costs. If you ask for any information from the bank, they state it is now with their solicitors, if you ask for any information from the solicitors, they state to write to the bank!

 

I was paying £160 per month, they 'demanded' I increase the amount to £360 or else they'd take me to court - which they are now doing as I stated that a £200 per month increase was not possible.

 

All I really want to know is the best way of handling myself once I'm in court and the correct way to put across my arguments - I'm not phased (thanks for the note of support Womble) as I have attended court on several ocassions - licensing when I owned a pub and as a prosecution witness.

 

I am looking at them not having true signed copy as my first line of defence and the fact that although I owe them £17,000 and they are the biggest creditor, it is less than half (40%) of the total I owe outright - all being paid at reduced amounts by personal arrangement by myself.

[42man]

No does it say under an agreement ? or 'default' ?

[vexlitigant]

Hi UK Flyer

 

Have personal experience of dealing with NastyWest and their dogs Sh**smiths. I have just picked up on you thread. I will read and come back in later

 

Vex

[UK Flyer]

No does it say under an agreement ? or 'default' ?

Sorry.... the details are as follows:

 

The claimants claim is in respect of monies due pursuant to an account maintained with the claimant.

 

Is that what you are after?

[vexlitigant]

Lots of info in your first thread.

 

Want to make sense of the situation, but want to avoid getting into the facts and realities of your situation with shared ownership of the House - just now anyway.

 

So.......

 

You are now in the process of a court claim:

 

• Is this the first with NatWest in respect of this loan?
  
• On the claim form that you received on Oct 22nd, what have the solicitors put as the particulars of claim (POC). This is on the left hand side of the front page. No need to put a copy of the claim form on here, just type in the POC here, verbatim, BUT as 42man says REMOVE any info that could possibly connect you with this post. Replace real figures with xxxx.xx
  
• You say you filed an acknowledgement of service, then submitted a defence. Who drafted your defence, and what does it say? What position are you taking?
  
• Your payments to Natwest will more than likely have been used to pay off interest. If you are still paying, (and i yield to any better advice here) i suggest you stop.
  
• You asked for a copy of the Credit Agreement. What did you get back from the bank. Did you get anything?
  

Thanks, Vex

[vexlitigant]

OK. Have re read

 

Think that your italics point to the Defence......

 

Is this it?

 

"I have been making regular payments to clear this debt since 2004. Further to a letter dated 5 Feb 2008 from Nat West payments of £160 have been made on a regular basis. Subsequent to my details being passed to Incasso LLP from National Westminster Bank PLC Credit Management Services I have made two further payments of £160 via online banking: 30 September 08 and 07 November 08.

 

On notification of the threat of Court Action I have written to Nat West to review the threat of Court action with an explanation of circumstances, request for true copy of credit agreement. I have also requested copies of, or transcript of, conversations re: case. I have also written to Incasso LLP with a request to review court action with an offer to continue to repay £160 per month and written to Incasso LLP with a request for information to enable me to clarify and confirm that the amount demanded is the ‘true amount’ owed. So far correspondence requesting a true signed copy of my credit agreement and a detailed financial breakdown in relation to the amount borrowed, amount repaid and any additional charges has not been complied with."

[vexlitigant]

Two more points......

"I take it that without a 'true signed copy' there is no case to answer. Therefore if that is correct and Nat West cannot prove the debt, is the debt valid and can it be written off..."

 

True - but your defence needs to refer to points of law, precedent (where applicable) and how this relates to your defence / position

"I am not one to normally shirk my responsibilities but I have tried to remain as reasonable as possible making sure that I pay back what I owe. Dealing with the bank is like dealing with a brick wall and their lack of sensitivity in relation to the circumstance has really annoyed me - My mother in law is a pensioner and her house is her retirement fund".

 

Do not even bother explaining yourself on this mate. I've been there (am still there)and so have plenty of others that will chip in to help you. You are amongst tons of others who have been unreasonably treated by complete bankers.

 

Vex

[UK Flyer]

True - but your defence needs to refer to points of law, precedent (where applicable) and how this relates to your defence / position

 

Vex

 

That's the sort of thing I'm after... there is no point in going to court with conjecture. Is there anything published available on the site I can refer to?

 

Also in response to your earlier posts...

 

 

So.......You are now in the process of a court claim:

• Is this the first with NatWest in respect of this loan?
  

Yes it is….

• On the claim form that you received on Oct 22nd, what have the solicitors put as the particulars of claim (POC). This is on the left hand side of the front page. No need to put a copy of the claim form on here, just type in the POC here, verbatim, BUT as 42man says REMOVE any info that could possibly connect you with this post. Replace real figures with xxxx.xx
  

See my post at 16:20 but again….

 

The claimants claim is in respect of monies due pursuant to an account maintained with the claimant.

• You say you filed an acknowledgement of service, then submitted a defence. Who drafted your defence, and what does it say? What position are you taking?
  

I drafted it myself as in my initial post…

• Your payments to NatWest will more than likely have been used to pay off interest. If you are still paying, (and i yield to any better advice here) i suggest you stop.
  

No, the interest was stopped four years ago… I have been paying off capital since then. That’s what is so bizarre… the bank was very reasonable and approachable in their actions towards my situation back then….

 

I have however now stopped paying as the debt is now deemed to be 'In dispute' and things are looking dodgy for them as they haven't produced my signed agreement.... advice from a friend of mine.

• You asked for a copy of the Credit Agreement. What did you get back from the bank. Did you get anything?
  

I got a computer print out of what I would have signed… no signature. The address on the agreement is the PO Box number that I was using for my business and not my home address which I found interesting…

 

 

Also further to my defence entry I have subsequently received an account statement of everything I have paid since taking out the loan.

 

 

My request for recordings or transcripts of the recent – ish telephone conversations was turned down. Even though they state telephone conversations are recorded (or may be) they claim they have no record of mine.... probably a good thing for them because the girl who called me when it all blew up was a complete harridan... I would love to have presented our telephone conversation to the court. I can't tar them all like that as the girl I spoke to the next day was lovely but claimed it was out of her hands as the first had already refered me to their solicitors....

[vexlitigant]

Also further to my defence entry I have subsequently received an account statement of everything I have paid since taking out the loan.

 

My request for recordings or transcripts of the recent – ish telephone conversations was turned down. Even though they state telephone conversations are recorded (or may be) they claim they have no record of mine.... probably a good thing for them because the girl who called me when it all blew up was a complete harridan... I would love to have presented our telephone conversation to the court. I can't tar them all like that as the girl I spoke to the next day was lovely but claimed it was out of her hands as the first had already refered me to their solicitors....

 

You have received a statement of account as they are obliged to do that.

 

I am afraid that the denial of access to recordings / transcripts is pretty standard. This appears V difficult for the to comply with (no sympathy though) You will have to push on more than a few occasions to get them to reveal their hand, but i think that a CPR part 31.14 request will help at the stage you are at.

 

I am not hanging around this computer much longer tonight, so you will not get afull response now until over the w/end.

 

You should however train your eyes on the following link.....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/121049-how-defend-claim-loan-5.html

 

The defence posted by PT there will most likely constitute the majority of your defence, bujt i do not want to rush and botch one in here. I will be back. Nothing will happen over the weekend, so rest easy, and i'll drop back in, m ost likely on Sunday

 

Thanks, Vex

Edited December 20, 2008 by vexlitigant

[UK Flyer]

The case is being transferred to my local court. I have received the paperwork which needs to be returned by the 5th January. Not overly worried and will sort it all out on the 29th, but would like a pointer as to what to put in the appropriate fields... is there a previous post in relation to this elsewhere on the forum?

[vexlitigant]

Hi UKFlyer

 

What paperwork have you got from them?

[UK Flyer]

Hi UKFlyer

 

What paperwork have you got from them?

 

An Allocation Questionaire. sections A to H and an 'Other Information' form.

[vexlitigant]

Hi UKF

 

You know that we will be cut off from talking by Xmas :grin: I'm out on the lawn in a mo, with the little ones sprinkling - get this - Reindeer Food

 

I will stay with you though, so if it goes quiet, we'll get this done with time to spare.

 

So.......

 

Think that in order to beef up your position, you will need to:

1/ File a new defence (as previously mentioned) You will need to submit your ammended defence using an N244 FORM (application notice) and should cost you £75!

 

This is the link to the form - http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n244_e.pdf

 

This is a link to BankFodders brief note on the N244 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/41901-form-n244-application-notice.html

 

2/ AND get that Allocation Questionnaire (AQ) back to the court.

 

Let me know if that's straightforward

 

Have a good one in any case. Will probably be back in on Boxing Day

 

Vex

[UK Flyer]

Looks pretty straigtforward. Will go through it all after xmas... in the meantime have fun.... I'm back to Christmas present wrapping .... Merry Christmas everyone.....

[womble72]

Hi Uk Flyer,

 

Have good day tomorrow and dont let the Natwest spoil it.

I am still worried about the outcome for mine in March but if they cant provide the orginal terms for the loan then surly they cant enforce it but it will down to the judge to decide but i am bricking it and i am trying not to let it get to me because of my children but i am scared because i bodged the 28 day defence date and i have a nightmare that the its too late to defend it. But we are both in the same boat with probably will be the same outcome.

Have a good xmas and we will both fight the crapwest in 2009 !

 

Kind Regards

 

Womble

[paulwlton]

Are you able to scan and post the agreement they've forwarded?

[hellhasnofury]

Did they apply payment protection insurance??????????

[UK Flyer]

Are you able to scan and post the agreement they've forwarded?

Already scanned.... I have put together a file of all documentation relating to correspondance since being informed of pending court action with a schedule in:

hard copy original

hard copy copy

and electronic.

 

I assumed I would have to provide documentary evidence in relation to trying to come to a resolution. So I have an original for evidence, a copy for the claiment and electronic for my reference. I was going to send the original in with the allocation questionnaire and revised denfence referring to some of the documents.... but think I'll do another copy and send that in to the court, with a copy to Incasso and retain the originals.

 

Don't really want to 'post' them but happy to email everything if someone wants to take a look.

 

Another thought - I have the default notice dated 22 April 2004. Is it worthwhile including that as it shows that until recently Nat West were happy with the arrangement and it's taken them four years to take me to court

 

No PPI - never thought it was worth it!

[paulwlton]

PMd you.

[paulwlton]

I would also hit them with a SAR.

 

 

Regards

Paul

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest your entire claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

 

2 the default notice*

 

3 the termination notice*

 

 

4 A full set of statements from the accounts outset to the issuing of this claim*

 

5 A copy of the original agreement you seek to rely upon.

 

6 All information relating to how you have applied default interest (if any) and the contractual provision you seek to rely upon.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s), which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

Send spl delivery retain proof print name