Mathematicians Needed - Help with Credit Agreement Figures

[surprise]

Suzie

 

If you go onto The Law Socity website - find a solicitor - it comes up with the different fields you put in your location and it will find one for you, that is if there is one in your area.

[Josie8]

try googling consumer credit solicitors or something similar and see what you get - don't bother with any of the claims companies.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks for that, hopeflly I will find one

 

Suzie x

[Guest suziedarkness]

Just an update and a bit more advice really.

 

I have contacted a Solicitor who has said that the fact that Welcome wrote a £30,000 on a CCA regulated form is irrelevant.

 

He said that he would need more information to beable to decide whether or not to take the case on. He said the problem is that I would need a barrister on this and if I did not win, even on a no win no fee basis, then I would still have to pay the barrister which could be mega money.

 

I dont really know where to go from here. I am almost certain there must be something untoward with them. Had a call today from them saying that they were passing it on as it has to be resolved.

 

I am going to send a Subject Access Request to see what that brings forth, but other than that, I dont really know what else to do.

 

Any ideas anyone?

 

Suzie

 

Postggj are you out there?

[Guest suziedarkness]

Sorry to drag up this old chestnut again but I really feel like im hitting my head on a brick wall.

 

This agreement with Black Horse. I have had trouble finding a solicitor locally that deals with this type of law so ended up sending the agreement off to one of these companies. (We told you not to I hear you all saying), but I really dont have the knowledge or confidence to do it by myself.

 

Anyhow this company said that they use experienced lawyers blah blah blah and they said that it would not cost me anything as if they find it to be unenforceable then the costs will be paid by the other side, if its not, then I pay nothing.

 

I sent the agreement of weeks ago and after chasing them up before xmas they confirmed that it was unenforceable and they would be writing to Black Horse.

 

They appear to be taking forever to do anything and I have today received a contract from them telling me how much I have to pay. What are they playing at?????? I am not signing it and will probably be telling them to go swivel but I am soooo frustrated. I thought I was getting somewhere, now I feel I back at square one. what can I do? my car is sitting on my drive, no mOT, no insurance, no tax.

 

Suzie

[surprise]

Unless you are prepared to tackle it yourself I'm not sure what help we can give you. Josie had already advised not to deal with any claim companies, which you ignored. This seems snotty, but its not meant to, but when advice is ignored it is difficult to offer alternative.

 

If you are prepared for the hard slog then there is no reason why you can't tackle this head on yourself. It is never easy with any agreement that is considered unenforceable as the creditor will always say it is.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Yes I know what you are saying surprise, I tried loads of solicitors locally and most did not deal in that field, the couple that did wanted over £200 for an initial consultation which I just dont have.

 

I guess I will have to tackle myself but to be honest, I dont even really know why its unenforceable and I would look a complete idiot if I get it wrong. I just dont know where to start.

 

suzie

[surprise]

I personally think you can do this yourself with help of the experts and I can see from some of the posters that they know what they are talking about. Wait and see what advice others offer later. I know the figures are wrong making it unenforceable but there are also other things which could be flagged up at the sametime.

 

Good luck.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks Surprise, I think I will need it!

[steven4064]

I had a look and I get: £6295 paid off as 59 x £150.27 + 1 x £225.27 gives a total cost of credit of £2796.20 which is what the agreement says but an APR of 16.6% - this is using Dualcalc

[Guest suziedarkness]

Does that mean anything dugnificant?

 

What is your opinion with the Acceptance Fee being included in the total charge for credit but not the purchase fee?

 

Suzie

[steven4064]

Probably not as the interest rate is not a prescribed term for fixed-sum credit agreements unless they fall within the exceptions in para 9 of schedule 1 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements ) regulations 1983, which this one doesn't.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Back to Black Horse agreement. I am very rapidly sending myself insane with this. It has been said in earlier posts that the figures do not add up. I totally agree with this. I have put the figures in Dualcalc in different ways but it is one big puzzle to me. Can someone please help me out here. I know that something is amiss but no matter how hard I look, I cannot see it.

 

Okay, inital amount of credit on agreement is £6295.00, Hire Purchase charge is £2,576.20 then there is an acceptance fee of £145.00 and a purchase fee of £75.00. It says on the agreement that there are 59 payments of £150.27 and 1 final payment of £225.27 to include the £75.00 purchase fee. There is no mention of paying the £145.00 acceptance fee with 1st instalment as is usual (sorry folks I was so sure I paid this with 1st instalment but I checked and had not, I was confused as the norm is to pay with 1st instalment), anyway so it must mean that the £145.00 is spread over the 60 instalments. thats me thinking allowed, now this is where I am confusing myself.

 

Dualcalc

I put £6295.00 in the loan amount, entered regular repayments as £150.27 x 60 (I am forgetting about the £75 for now as I am trying to establish whether the £145.00 has been included in the calculations for interest) and the results are as follows:

 

Total amount advanced £6,295.00

Total amount payable £9,016.20

Total charge for credit £2,721.20

 

APR 16.3%

 

Now I have worked out that as the £145.00 acceptance Fee is spread over 60 months as there has been no other option to discharge this fee, it works out to £2.41 per month so if I minus this from the £150.27 it makes the repayments £147.85 for the loan and HP charge. when I put these figs in Dualcalc this is how it works out

 

Loan amount £6,295.00

60 x £147.85

Total amount payable £8,871.00

Total charge for credit £2,576.00

(this is the hire purchase charge on the agreement, strange!!)

 

APR 15.4%

 

As the first set of figures is nearer (APR on agreement 16.5%), does this mean that they have included the acceptance fee when calculating interest?

 

Suzie

 

Loan amount £6,295.00

[steven4064]

Suzie

 

I repeated your calcs and got te same aas you did. Both are reasonable and I think it indicates that the £145 doesn't come in to these calculations at all - either it was paid with the first payment (which youay it wasn't) or as a seperate paymenbt or not at all.

 

THe APR of 16.3% is correct and the statement of it as 16.5% is within the tolerance allowed.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Ahh yes Steven, but the £145.00 does appear to come into the calculation because to get the APR of 16.3% you have to include the repayment for it.

 

what I am trying to get at (not very well I dont think lol!!) is that the Acceptance fee cannot be treated as credit so it has to be dealt with seperately. Therefore, if you breakdown the monthly payments for the fee and the loan they are as follows : 60 x £147.85 and 60 x £2.41 to the true monthly figure for the Loan is £147.85. If you put this into Dualcal you only get an APR of 15.4% which means that they have included the Acceptance Fee to get an APR of 16.3% and surely this is wrong.

 

Surprise came up with similar calculations on an earlier post, and she also said that they have included the Acceptance Fee in the interest calculations. Not sure if she used Dualcalc or another method.

 

Can anyone else see where I am coming from or am I completely barking up the wrong tree?

 

Suzie

[cosalt]

Suzie I have tried to explain this before to you, they can just say the first payment included the acceptance fee ie: £145 fee + £5.27 payment.

 

Unless you ask them for a written calculation as to how they worked out the interest charges and using what flat rate you will never prove it.

 

I know my agreement is similar, but on mine they actually admit they have charged interest on the fee but do not show it in the prescribed terms as a seperate agreement so it is incorrect.

 

Again as I said before I believe they have charged you interest on it, but there is no way in proving it from the document as it would make so little difference to the APR.

 

If you want to do something about it write to them asking how they calculated the interest using what flat rate, they will probably be stupid enough to just admit it.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks for that Cosalt, that is probably my best bet and will do letter later on.

 

Was your HP with Black Horse or another company and did you get that confirmation from the company about them adding interest to the acceptance fee or is it obvious from the agreement form?

 

Sorry I cant remember your post exactly and I have to admit now that all this is starting to do my head in!!

 

suzie

[cosalt]

My agreement is not with black horse,.

 

They told me over the phone they had spread it and added interest ( although I know this does not mean much )

 

But it is obvious on the agreement, they even explain how they have calculated the interest but do not show in the prescribed terms that interest has been charged, which means the figures are wrong.

 

Just get that info of them and I think you could be on to a winner !

[Guest suziedarkness]

Fingers crossed for both of us.

 

Suzie

[Peterbard]

O dont worry Atwozee, I wont loose my nerve. I have been ripped off big time over the last few years, trouble is I have only just realised as I am learning my rights thanks to all you great people.

 

I have definately only paid the £145.00 once.

 

I paid the car showroom £1200 deposit upfront, (by way of a part exchange), which is shown on the agreement. Then Black Horse took the first payment by direct debit from my bank account of £295.29 1 month later which was $150.27 monthly instalment plus £145.00. Of this I am 200% positive.

 

I will point out though that I did not know I had to pay an arrangement fee at the time of signing the agreement, my fault I guess, I should read what im signing. It wasnt until BH sent a copy of the agreement with a welcome letter that I read it and noticed I had to pay extra.

 

Suzie

 

 

Hi s

 

i have just gone through the agreemtnRepayments

1 At 150.27

57 at 150.27

1 including fee at 225.27

 

Tap including deposit of 10291

APR 16.54%

 

This is ok all the fees are in the right places and i was depressed BUt

now i see you paid the fee of 145 in with the first payment as an addition is that right.

Yousee in order to tget the APR stated above, the fee has already been included wihin the total charge for crdit and spread amongs the paymnets.

So you will have paid it twice.

The effect of this would make the APR rise to 17.75%

 

Thisis slightly complicted argument because the agreement itself is correct if the repayments were taken as they should. So you will have to prove that they were not.

 

So you have two major arguments one is that the APR is incorrect this is a major flaw and may get yur agreement adjusted by the court and certainly makes it enforceabe only by an order of the court under section 65 of the act but it also means that your payments are incorrect and these are a prescribed term which as you know in an agreement dated before the 6 april 2007 woud render the agreement unenforceable under section 127(3) of the act.

Good luck Peter

 

Peter

Edited April 7, 2009 by Dodgeball
spelling sucks big time maths is good though

[summerbreeze]

Could some of the mathmatically minded just check my figures please.

I have a similar agreement to susiedarkness as follows

 

key financial information

 

amount of credit £22214.52

total amount payable £ 28927.40

1 repayment of £613.54 and 58 repayments of £478.54 and 1 final repayment of £558.54

apr 11.5%

 

Other financial information

 

cash price of goods £21915.52

cash price of gap insurance £299.00

total cash price £22214.52

interest £6497.88

credit facility fee part a £135

credit facility fee prt b £80

Total charge for credit £6712.88

 

interest rate 10.6% per annum

Interest charges for the duration of this agreement are calculated on and added to the amount of credit at the outset

 

This is a fixed sum loan

 

The part a charge for credit was definitely paid with the 1st payment

 

Thanks for any help

[steven4064]

First payment is 478.54 + 135, last payment is 478.54+80 (ie the credit facility is paid in 2 bits, one with first and one with last payment). Using these figures, rate of interest is 11.1% and APR is 12%. So APR is wrong, in fact it is outside the tolerance allowed by the regulations. THis makes the agreement improperly executed and only enforceable bya court. However, for enforceability by a court, the APR doesn't matter. Therefore a court could choose to enforce it.

[summerbreeze]

First payment is 478.54 + 135, last payment is 478.54+80 (ie the credit facility is paid in 2 bits, one with first and one with last payment). Using these figures, rate of interest is 11.1% and APR is 12%. So APR is wrong, in fact it is outside the tolerance allowed by the regulations. THis makes the agreement improperly executed and only enforceable bya court. However, for enforceability by a court, the APR doesn't matter. Therefore a court could choose to enforce it.

 

Hi Steven

This is very helpful ..thank you

How can I lay this information out to show to a judge or solicitors.

 

I would like to use this info along with other factors that are wrong with my agreement

 

rep added

 

SB

[steven4064]

Just do it as I have, I think.

 

Additional info: tolerance of APR calculation is in schedule 7 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983. The terms required for an agreement to be properly executd are in schedule 1 and the terms for a court to be able to enforce the agreement are in schedule 6.

[summerbreeze]

Hi Steven

I am still unsure about the calculations and how to set them out.

When I put the total cash amount borrowed and interest rate into this loan calculator

 

Loan repayments calculator | This is Money

 

The repayments seem to be correct and there doesnt seem to be any interest charged on the 2 part credit facility fee.

 

Please can you explain how you worked it out. Sorry for being dim