Unmarked Disabled bay

[s_i]

Hi,

 

First off I'd like to say I'm not the kind of person that is too lazy to park in disabled bays!

 

I went to use my car last night and it was gone, living in London I initially thought it had been stolen. However, I later learned that it had been removed, as it was parked in a disabled bay.

 

The reason I parked there was because I honestly thought it was an old ex-disabled bay, I thought this for a couple of reasons:

1) There are other old bays on the same street - one right outside my house, that you can only just make out the wording disabled, but people (including me) have kept their cars there since I've moved into the area six months ago. This is also a very heavily 'wardened' area - just off Tooting high street. They are clearly no longer disabled bays, and my car was parked in what looked to be an old bay (I have photos)

 

2) There is a new bay right next to where I parked my car, further leading me to think that my car was in an ex-disabled bay. I assumed the bay had just been moved up the road a bit. Why would there be a perfectly marked bay right next to one where the marking has almost completely worn off?

 

Anyway let me know if you think I have a case for appeal. Either way I have to go and pay about £260 to get my car back tonight..

 

Thanks in advance for all your help

 

Si

[Guest Ting]

Spooky. i've just watched a car lifted from a disabled bay 2 minutes ago!

 

Not sure if you have any case on the markings. Need to see those pics.

 

When you collect the car - little tip. Just take whatever documents they give you and don't query if they should be giving you anything else.

Some London Boroughs are making a crucial mistake when vehicles are collected. Then scan and post all docs here.

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forum will block you (which i keep saying is ridiculous since docs are the first thing we need to see and actually save time and avoid pointless questions). just post tosh for a few posts and then it will allow you.

 

use tinypic to host.

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[buzby]

These road markings are only a guide to look at adjacent signage. The 'ex' ones are usually provided for those disabled drivers outside their own homes, so when they move away, the bay itself lapses, but this requires the council to extinguish the order that allowed its creation. If there are no posts with a sign confirming that the bay is for disabled use, take pictures of the location.

 

Check with the council that there is actually an active disabled bay at that address, and if they do confirm this, ask why there is no street plate to confirm the almost invisible road markings.

[Bookworm]

forum will block you (which i keep saying is ridiculous since docs are the first thing we need to see and actually save time and avoid pointless questions). -

That's to stop spammers, Ting, and it has worked quite well. If you had to deal with the amount of spam the site team did, you wouldn't think it so ridiculous.

[s_i]

hmm, maybe I don't have a case. There is a small road sign, but i thought it related to the new adjacent bay..

 

I'll get the photos up anyway. Cheers for your comments so far!

 

Si

[patdavies]

These road markings are only a guide to look at adjacent signage.

 

Lines and signs have equal validity - IOW, both are needed. The lines are signage in their own right and must conform the the legal requirements (usually TSRGD 2002)

 

Check with the council that there is actually an active disabled bay at that address, and if they do confirm this, ask why there is no street plate to confirm the almost invisible road markings.

 

Even if there is a 'street plate', the road markings must also be valid for enforcement to be lawful.

 

Regardless of the TRO, if the road markings did not show it as a disabled bay, then it wasn't a disabled bay, period.

[Guest Ting]

hmm, maybe I don't have a case. There is a small road sign, but i thought it related to the new adjacent bay..

Si

 

Eh? Just a couple of hours, £300- down and you roll over?

 

Docs!

It may not happen but let's see. Currently I know of two London Boroughs that get it wrong big time, a london authority (ahem) that makes a smaller error and 3 London Boroughs that get it right. - work out the chances so far!

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[sameagle]

I wonder if the laws for on-road parking are uniform throughout the UK?

 

A friend of mine, who lives in Stoke-on-Trent, about 10 miles from where I live, recently applied for a Disabled bay marking outside her home.

 

The application from S-O-T Council, stated various conditions of use, and one of those is, that she doesn't have exclusive use of it, and that anybody, disabled or not, could park on/in it, and she would have no legal redress.

 

The "ownership" of such a bay in Stoke seems to be based on a "Gentlemans Agreement", with apologies to those ladies reading this of course! [sam the Eagle grins]

 

Perhaps it varies from Council to Council? Worth finding out, I would have thought?

 

Sameagle

[Bookworm]

Sameagle, are you sure she didn't misunderstand and that she doesn't have exclusive use of it, as in not reserved specifically for her car and other disabled drivers can use it?

 

Some spaces, especially outside one's home, are allocated to one owner only, and registered so, whereas some are usable by all disabled drivers.

 

I have never ever heard of disabled spaces being available to non disabled drivers, it would make a mockery of the whole system, as we know, a lot of non-disabled drivers are quite happy to misuse the disabled spaces as it is.

[crem]

My understanding of "disabled" bays painted outside a residents house (i.e. the white broken line ones) is the same as Bookworm. Yes, it is a resident who may have applied for it to be installed, but the bay is only marked as "Disabled" therefore any blue badge holder may park there and it is not exclusive to that particular resident.

 

Non blue badge parkers may be ticketed when they use it.

[s_i]

Ok, Got the car back only £250. Just what I needed before a two week holiday in India! I'll get the documents online tonight.

 

I also managed to forget to get an appeal form when I picked my car up, is that going to prove problematic.

 

Infact, can I even do anything if I'm going to be out of the country for two weeks come Saturday?

 

Cheers

Si

[crem]

When you collect the car - little tip. Just take whatever documents they give you and don't query if they should be giving you anything else.

Some London Boroughs are making a crucial mistake when vehicles are collected. Then scan and post all docs here.

 

 

 

I also managed to forget to get an appeal form when I picked my car up, is that going to prove problematic.

 

It may transpire that they should have given you such an appeal form without you asking as part of the package which may be what Ting was suggesting earlier.

 

I think Ting was suggesting failure to give you all the relevant forms upon collection may invaliate their actions. I am sure he will be along today to clarify what he was meaning so keep an eye out for an update here.

[patdavies]

My understanding of "disabled" bays painted outside a residents house (i.e. the white broken line ones) is the same as Bookworm. Yes, it is a resident who may have applied for it to be installed, but the bay is only marked as "Disabled" therefore any blue badge holder may park there and it is not exclusive to that particular resident.

 

Non blue badge parkers may be ticketed when they use it.

 

What is more likely is that the council will paint the marking for a disabled bay, but not undertake the extra costs involved in a TRO. Without the TRO, the space marked is available to anybody. Although the hope is that a non-disabled driver wiould be dissuaded from using it.

 

In a similar vein, many councils gaily painted yellow zig-zag lines outside schools, but didn't bother with TROs - making the lines unenforceable.

 

You are, of course, that if it is a properly TRO'd and marked bay, it is available for any blue badge holder.

[s_i]

Here are the pics of the scene:

 

Old marking - 'end' of bay where I was parked:

 

New bay vs old (bay I was in was on the right)

 

 

 

Bay where I wasn't parked (the new one):

 

 

Where I was parked:

 

 

non disabled outside my house:

 

I'll get the documents up later.

 

Thanks

Si

[Guest Ting]

Ok, Got the car back only

 

I also managed to forget to get an appeal form when I picked my car up, is that going to prove problematic.

Si

 

Bingo! Exactly what i'm talking about! If they didn't give you the required documents it should be a reasonably straightforward win.

 

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[Guest Ting]

It may transpire that they should have given you such an appeal form without you asking as part of the package which may be what Ting was suggesting earlier.

 

I think Ting was suggesting failure to give you all the relevant forms upon collection may invaliate their actions. I am sure he will be along today to clarify what he was meaning so keep an eye out for an update here.

 

On the nose crem!

 

Information on how to make representations, including the relevant legal grounds is a requirement.

"I forgot to pick up" made me laugh and I wondered if it was said tongue-in-cheek.

 

It isn't something you get from a brochure rack and is why i said don't ask for anything other than what you are given.

 

If the docs you show confirm this then they have failed to comply with-

'The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions Representations and Appeals Regs 2007', Part 4 Reg 11.

 

Given you mentioned a tight timescale I recommend you take this to the 'PePiPoo' forum - simply because there are four current similar cases running there and full details of how to appeal have been posted very recently. It's a fairly straightforward one and you should easily be able to get a letter off in the next 24 hours.

 

For info of forum members here. Recently known to have made the same mistake are >>

 

Hackney, Tower Hamlets.

 

Definitely not making the mistake are >>

 

Lambeth, Camden. Also believe Newham and Waltham Forest are getting it right but can't confirm.

 

Others unknown - any info welcome.

 

In one of the Hackney cases the victim wrote a letter of enquiry - asking how he was supposed to appeal. They quite amusingly treated this letter as 'formal representations' and issued a standard rejection LOL. Unfortunately this just delays it for him - proceeding to PATAS end of next month.

 

It is important then to get the wording right in what you say. As I said, info in the PePiPoo cases.

[Guest Ting]

I see what you mean about the bay markings and how you came to the conclusion you did. Clearly misleading.

Useful to include because this will give their back door get-out. They will rather cancel on a side issue than admit serious procedural impropriety.

 

Incidentally, lettering looks to be possibly too big. Measure it. i'll post a link to regs later.

Also, what you say is a new bay clearly has older smaller lettering saying 'disabled' underneath?

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Edited October 15, 2008 by Ting
wrong borough quoted - what borough is it anyway?

[Guest Ting]

Ho hum.

 

perhaps he/she can afford the £250-?

 

No docs so no idea of timescale or if reps can go in when he/she returns.

 

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[s_i]

Hi,

 

Sorry for unresponsiveness. Here are the docs:

(the only thing they gave me at the car pound)

 

and the thing that was on my windscreen at the car pound:

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ting - Not sure what you mean by "PePiPoo" - i guess a quick google will let me know ;-)

 

 

Thanks for all your help so far! much appreciated!

 

Si

[Guest Ting]

Well need to be sure and you've already made a booboo. That isn't all of the PCN is it!

So what, also, is on the back of the other form?

 

I wonder what form REM4 is that they claim to have given you?

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[s_i]

Hi, other than the envelope and the back that was it. I didn't ask for any other form and wasn't given any other form:

 

Here's a phot of the envelope and back:

 

(there is also a reciept stapled to the yellow page - just a standard cc reciept.)

 

Let me know if you have any further advice.

 

Thanks!