Black Horse Hire Purchase - Urgent Help Needed Please !!!

[Guest suziedarkness]

Hi everyone,

 

I a could really use some advice on this as I need to move quickly.

 

I have a car on finance with Black Horse. At the end of August I decided that I couldn't afford to keep it anymore and wrote to them on 7th September advising that I wished to terminate the agreement as was my right and could they please contact me to arrange collection.

 

I received a letter back on the 25th September asking for a further £254.22 to end the agreement. I was a little confused as in the copy of the CCA I found it clearly states the amount I needed to have repaid to terminate the agreement and my monthly payments have exceeded this by almost £1,000 so why they were asking for more I dont know.

 

I wrote back to the explaining that care had been taken with the vehicle, I had exceeded the required amount, I was not prepared to pay anymore and they needed to contact me (mobile no. provided) to sort out returning the vehicle.

 

By the way, I stopped paying the instalments in August.

 

I then received a telephone call at work on Monday which went through to main reception and they emailed me. So I phoned them back and I told them that I was not prepared to discuss the matter on the phone, they had to write to me. The woman from Black Horse had the ache and put the phone down on me.

 

I received another phone call yesterday, reception emailed me again to tell me, I ignored it. I then had another call from Black Horse yesterday and I told the man exactly what I told the woman on Monday. I also told him that I was seeking legal advice and if they continued to contact me at work I would report them for harrassment. The man said he understood and apologised.

 

I have today received a default notice from Black Horse along with numerous automated calls from them. At present I have had at least eight calls since monday that I have logged.

 

I planned to sent BH a CCA request but I feel I need to mention about the harrassment and things.

 

What should I do? Any help would be greatly appreciated Im hopeless at this kind of stuff.

 

Suzie D x

[42man]

Hi Suz....not nice them calling you at work....with your CCA request, your £1 postal order you could also include this letter....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

 

Remember to send by recorded delivery too...and keep us posted...

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks for your help 42man, I will get writing later.

 

suzie x

[havinastella]

Hi Suzie

 

IMHO there is no point sending for a CCA, as Blackhorse always almost have the correct paperwork.

 

The problem lies in the default notice as you cannot VT whilst in arrears.

 

Unfortunately BH are utterly terrible to correspond with via letters. My opinion would be to talk to someone on the phone ASAP, explain the situation, ask why you have to pay the extra money and send them the original letter via 'RMSD'

 

BH have no qualms in issuing Court Papers as soon as they can after default notice.

 

Jogs

[Guest suziedarkness]

I seem to be having a nightmare with this.

 

I sent CCA request to Black Horse enclosing £1. They are over their 12+2 days and I have not had so much as a dicky bird from them.

 

I so want to get this resolved one way or another, preferably in my favour.

 

How do I stand legally now and what should I do next.

 

Anyone, please?

 

Regards

Suzie

 

P.S. I was not in arrears when I requested VT, I had paid well over the required amount to terminate. they just said I was in arrears because they are stupid!!

[Guest suziedarkness]

Anyone?

[42man]

Next letter is this Suz...

 

Send by recorded....and edit as required

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks 42man, I will get it in the post today.

 

Suzie x

[Guest suziedarkness]

I sent stiff letter on 29th Oct. I gave them 7 days to respond otherwise I would take it that they were unable to produce a CCA and therefore unable to enforce the agreement.

 

I also said that in this instance, apart from that mentioned in the above letter, should they be unable to comply with my request I would take it that the car would become my property and they had to release any charges they had on the vehicle.

 

As per all other letters sent, NOT A SINGLE RESPONSE!!

 

I know that they have received the letters because I checked with the Post Office.

 

What can I do now???? the car is sitting rotting on my drive and I am getting very frustrated.

 

Any help would be grately appreciated.

 

Suzie

[Guest suziedarkness]

Anyone please?

 

Suzie

[42man]

Not much else you can do at this stage Suz.....no agreement, then the debt is unenforceable....wait to see if/when they respond...

[Guest suziedarkness]

Guess what? I received a default letter today, nothing else just that.

 

Peeved off I telephoned the collections department that issued the letter and asked them why they had issued a default when the account was in dispute? The girl replied that she was aware the account was in dispute and being investigated but the default notices are automatically generated!! I asked her why black horse had not sent out my CCA despite my even though they had had 2 or 3 reminders. she was unable to answer but she said that she would locate a copy on the computer and send it out to me today, she also said that she had no record of any letters on the system, only the initial letter requesting voluntary termination. This set a little alarm bell ringing in my head. If they dispute having received any letters from re regarding CCA etc, why would they know my account was in dispute by me?

 

Anyway, I decided to call customer services to see if they could answer my questions. After trying to get some answers from a man in customer services, Cardiff he said he would try and find out and put me on hold. He never came back but transferred me back to Collections in Edinburgh.

 

Patience now starting to run out a little, I went through all again and she said she would look into the matter, try and find the missing letters and call me back. I gave her the dates the letters were sent and the dates they were signed for by BH.

 

She called me back a while later full of apologies saying that they had found the second letter I sent them which requested a copy of CCA but was still having trouble finding the stroppy letter and the very stroppy letter I had sent. She went on to say that they were so very sorry they had not responded and she had spoken to a man in voluntary termination department who had waived the extra charges that we originally disputed for the inconvenience caused and would we like the vehicle collected or do we want to deliver it to the auction house?

 

I said to her that I was not prepared to make any arrangements at the moment as my request still stood that I wanted a copy of the signed CCA together with written confirmation that all charges were waived and that there would be nothing further to pay once the vehicle was returned. She seemed a bit "put out" and said that her colleague was posting a copy of CCA today. I said thats fine, when I have both documents in hand, then I will contact you again.

 

What do you people think? I cant help but get the feeling that something is amiss somewhere.

[havinastella]

Hi Suzie

 

 

The problem lies in the default notice as you cannot VT whilst in arrears.

 

Unfortunately BH are utterly terrible to correspond with via letters. My opinion would be to talk to someone on the phone ASAP, explain the situation, ask why you have to pay the extra money and send them the original letter via 'RMSD'

 

BH have no qualms in issuing Court Papers as soon as they can after default notice.

 

Jogs

 

Hi Suzie, I did tell you this would happen.

 

I would put everything you have said today in writing and send it to the Company Secretary/Managing Director.

 

Go on the offenseive as I'm sure you have not heard the last of this yet.

 

Shame you couldn't record the call.

 

JOgs

[Guest suziedarkness]

Hi havinastella,

 

thanks for your reply.

 

I was not in arrears when I requested VT. The charge was a limitation charge or something she said today. Anyway, they have issued a default BUT, the account is in dispute and has been for a week or so as they have failed to send me CCA that I requested.

 

I may be reading this wrong but it seems that her apologies and statement that they had waived the charge due to thier incompetance basically is a sweetner and they were probably expecting me to make arrangements there and then about returning the car.

 

I did not do this. I still want to see this CCA and I want it in writing about them remoing the charge.

 

I just think something is not quite right. Why could they have not just sent me CCA a month ago when it was requested. They know the implications for non compliance.

 

Suzie

[havinastella]

What implications?

 

Who's going to take them to task? NO One

 

We as the 'Little People' don't scare them/have no recourse'

 

I have battled their Lawyers twice now (and won) but they disreguard letters, requests and even Court orders with open contempt, as they think we will give up and crawl back under our stones.

 

Unfortuneately, it's only about 1% (if that) that do stand up to them.

 

Hope it works out for you

 

Jogs

[Guest suziedarkness]

I know what you mean Havinastella, but I meant the implications are that they will be out of pocket because they are not getting anymore money out of me and if they dont supply CCA they are not getting the car back either! Their choice really.

 

I am glad things worked out for you. I am not prepared to accept and go away.

 

I guess I must just wait and see what turns up in the post, if anything and decide what to do from there.

 

The copy of the agreement that I have, the interest and payments dont seem to work out so I need to try and get someone to take a peek.

 

I take it you found them to inentionally withold information?

 

Suzie

[havinastella]

 

The copy of the agreement that I have, the interest and payments dont seem to work out so I need to try and get someone to take a peek.

 

I can't remember who the person is for looking at the APR on the agreements, I'll have a check for you.

 

I take it you found them to inentionally withold information?

 

Lets put it this way, I took them to Court for Non Compliance of my SAR. Day before court day, 2 bundles turned up including the kitchen sink. Costs awarded

 

Suzie

 

 

Stick with it, Lloyds need banging in a peg or two!

 

JOgs

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks Jogs, I appreciate it

 

Suzie

[Guest suziedarkness]

Ok, today I did not get the copy of the CCA and letter they were going to send out yesterday, but it could take a few days so I will hold my breath on that one.

 

I have today though received a letter from their Solicitors saying that they intend legal action to recover the arrears.

 

I am not sure what to do next.

 

As far as I understand they cannot do anything as they have failed to acknowledge any letter I have sent and they have not sent the CCA as requested some weeks ago.

 

I am not in arrears, they were told I wished to VT the agreement almost 3 months ago.

 

What should I do now?

 

Suzie

[42man]

Dear Sirs

 

I refer to your letter of XXXXX 2008 which was received today.

 

Frankly, I am surprised of the need to advise a firm of solicitors about the terms and conditions surrounding my Consumer Credit Agreement request (Consumer Credit Act, 1974); dated XXXX 2008 for which I have proof of receipt . I can only assume therefore that they failed to inform you of their non compliance. Your client had until (date - 12+2 working days from date of sending CCA request) to comply with a legal request.

 

Should your client persist with threats of legal action as stated in your letter, I will welcome the opportunity for a judge to look at several defaults committed by (bank name/DCA) under The Consumer Credit Act, 1974, as well as your client’s non-compliance with and total disregard for, both the (banking code and OFT guidelines EDIT AS REQUIRED).

 

Also please note that I will ONLY communicate in writing, any calls made to me will be classed as harrassment and treated as such.

 

Yours faithfully / for ever / with love / in anticipation of a short and fruitless banking relationship (choose the first if I were you !!!)

[Guest suziedarkness]

Ha ha, Thanks 42man, I like it!!

 

Suzie

[BubbleCat]

Thank you both Suziedarkness and 42man. My letter to Blackhorse is going by recorded delivery on monday.

[Guest suziedarkness]

CCA now received but believe from another thread that is unenfoceable. Not sure where to go from here.

 

Suzie

[BubbleCat]

Hi Suzie

 

Yes, I've seen it on one of the threads on this subject somewhere. I'll have a scout around on here to and if I find it before you will let you know.

 

Mind you having read through the letters 42man has suggested, it makes it quite clear in those that due to BH own ignorance, the debt has become unenforceable.

[atwozee]

Hi suzie – I think you’ve got three choices –

One - Sit back and do nothing, keep the car and wait for them to pursue the remainder of the debt via the court – at which time you claim unenforceable agreement because one (or more) of the prescribed terms are incorrectly stated and therefore deemed missing.

Two - Take the initiative and start proceedings yourself to get a judgment on whether the agreement is enforceable. If the judge agrees that the prescribed terms are incorrectly stated then case law goes in your favour.

Three - Try to get them to explain the figures in the agreement and the reason why they charged you twice for the arrangement fee.

Option Three might put them on the back foot and they might realise that they have got the figures wrong but it will help you decide ultimately between One and Two.

It depends on what you want to achieve – you could end up returning the car but getting all your money back (including the deposit) or keeping the car and not making any more payments (I think). Not sure that you could keep the car and get all the payments back because if the agreement is ruled unenforceable the situation will revert back to as if the agreement was never made in the first place. In other words – you never had the car and they never had your payments and deposit – you could claim interest on what you’ve paid out of course.

The whole thing will boil down to if the judge thinks the errors in the figures are small enough to overlook – there are clear guidelines on how much the APR may be under or overstated. With regards to everything else it’s down to the judge – I would say that a few pence here and there in the figures is something to be overlooked and anything else is incorrectly stated.

This is why you need decent legal advice on the matter before you make your decision.

Hope someone else can come along with more advice.