AA99 v MBNA (Account 1)

[davey77]

Hey AA99!

 

Thanks for looking through my posts.. hope some of it was a help. I really must start them all individually.. never thought it would reach 40 pages!

 

Looks like you are getting some sound advice here.. hope you feel more in control for it.

 

 

You mention bankruptcy.. it's something i considered although i didn't take that route as it all would have been too much for my old mum. As it stands, and after looking through this thread, i would say you doing very well and don't need to consider that at the moment.

Not sure quite how the detail works but it's not a quick fix that's for sure. A point though should you ever decide to go for it is that you must remember to give back all those DVDs and nice items you have on loan from all your friends and relatives.. of course, after bankruptcy is over then it would be nice to ask for them back. (You know what i mean.)

 

I don't think you need to go down that route though. Looks like you are getting some reasonable responses from many creditors and can pay them something each month for the most part. In your situation, as with mine, not having any assets or your own home the chance of a creditor actually taking you to Court (especially while you are paying them even a small amount) are 000.1% if that!

I almost begged a couple of my creditors to take me to Court but unless you have your own property or a Merc and 50" Tv that they know of, they won't spend the money on legal action.

 

You mention reducing the amount you pay and the suggestion of £300 a month to feed a family of four. Ignore all such statements. You are the best judge of what you and your family need to live on.

Something has changed in your income to warrant reducing payments and that is the high cost of living which has dramatically increased the last year compared to the lack of corresponding increase in Benefit payments.

That's the only information or reasoning you need give creditors. If you have a little left over then great but if that's £1, £10 or £17.85p a month then that's your concern. It's not up to a creditor to dictate what your food bill should be as long as you are truthful and don't suggest you need £999 a week for potatoes.

 

In regards to the SAR/CCA fees sent out, be prepared for a reply along the lines of "thank you for your payment, but it wasn't enough to clear your account".

Standard tactic to show, should it ever get to Court via a claim by you more likely, that you acknowledged the account and made a payment towards it, as well as avoiding complying with your request for documentation. Something to be aware of and nice complaint letter to head office usually remedies it.

 

The main thing at the mo seems to be the harassment by MBNA. GVI inc were polite but annoying as i remember. In fact that was the start of things and the phone ringing 8 times a day from MBNA alone was enough to give me grey hairs.

I did the usual. Administration of Justice Act, cease and desist all calls, only communicate in writing. Even letter to the Vice President of MBNA, to which i had replies apologising , didn't stop the calls until i changed my number.

I guess that isn't an easy option for you at the moment? Even so, a letter to the top wouldn't hurt!

 

Wait til you either get a reply to the CCAs (if you do) and then complain if required to Trading Standards. You may get their backing if you are lucky.

 

I'll hunt out the MBNA Assistant Vice President replies and what i wrote and post them here as they may be of some help! D

[davey77]

After i complained about the number of calls i received this:

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/VICEPRESmbna1.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/VICEPRESmbna2.jpg

 

My reply was:

 

"Thank you for the detailed and personal letter of the 8th of January regarding the response to my concerns - (signed Stuart Johnson: Assistant Vice President.)

 

I certainly accept the apology for the distress caused by the constant phone calls by GVI although I cannot say whether the calls in question have diminished or increased as i have since changed my phone number (ex-directory) and find that action has brought me great relief and lessened the stress i felt under at the time as I no longer experience a sickening feeling every time the phone rings.

 

I should like to bring to your attention of that which you may be unaware in the tactics employed by GVI are not as you put it “To ensure customers are contacted by telephone in a timely manner” or to “keep me updated” but are designed and carried out in such a fashion as to harass, intimidate and wear down an individual. How someone’s financial status can change several times a day or from 8am by 9.32am onwards on the same day is beyond comprehension. An example:

 

8.47am (With accent) “Hello Mr x, you have not paid your bill. Can you pay now? Can you get a friend to pay? Your credit rating will affected for up to 16 years. Can you pay by the end of the month? Can you take out a loan to pay? How do you expect to pay your bill?”

 

9.32am “Hello Mr x, you have not paid your bill. Can you pay now? Can you get a friend to pay? Your credit rating will affected for up to 16 years. Can you pay by the end of the month? Can you take out a loan to pay? How do you expect to pay your bill?”

 

12.26pm “As above”

13.15pm “As above”

15.29pm “As above”

19.15pm “As above”

19.26pm “As above”

20.40pm “As above”

 

All very polite individually but as you can imagine day in day out can start to have an effect on a person’s well-being surely. As i say i have accepted your apology and as i have changed my number it is no longer an issue that affects me personally but i bring it to your attention all the same in the hope that if there is a widespread and deliberate harassment agenda in the way GVI conducts it’s business you will review your association with such an organisation. I am sure you are all too sadly aware of the dire actions some people have taken in response to being overwhelmed by debt - and the phone calls by their creditors agents...

"

The reply was (after i had already told them i had been forced to change my phone number):

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/SeniorVicePMBNA.jpg

Edited September 26, 2008 by davey77

[davey77]

yeah i know CB.. totally crazy the way these people operate!

 

ah i see AA99.. the usual "call us as we are pretending to offer you help but of course when you call us we will do no such thing and try to bully you into paying (or promising to pay) more than you can afford".

 

I wouldn't reply to them either. Never call them.. have everything in writing.

[davey77]

I like it.. looks like you are on top of things there AA99.. keep it up

[davey77]

You can create a digital signature here if you want:

Online Personal Signature Maker - MyLiveSignature - Free Personal Signature Generator

[davey77]

Don't believe it's 'another' 12 working days after you have already gone over the first 12 days for the CCA. You have no obligation to tell them, you are merely doing them a courtesy to inform them they are in Default.

 

If they are in default and not supplied you with the information you are legally entitled to then it's time to start complaining to all the regulatory bodies.

[davey77]

Sickening really. What they are saying is 'we acknowledge the Banking code but will continue to ignore it as we are pretending that you are ignoring us therefore will harass you as much as we want'.

 

I haven't tried it myself but have you thought about complaining to the Banking Code Standards Board?

Banking Code Standards Board

 

As long as you can prove to them that you have not ignored the creditor and been reasonable then perhaps you might get somewhere?

[davey77]

They can't send someone round to see you without making a prior appointment (not that they have any intention whatsoever to actually send someone).

 

Are you able to record future conversations? Could prove very useful.

 

Have you reported all this to anyone yet? (OFT/TS/FOS)

[davey77]

Id follow Lexis' thoughts there AA99. As i understand it a creditor is still charged a fee (£400) when you make a complaint to the FOS. Hope someone can confirm that. IF so then it's nice to know that you are costing them money at the very least!

 

Consumer Direct website (i have found) is useless and patronising. Get your local TS address and write to them directly.

Edited November 6, 2008 by davey77
spelling

[davey77]

"we are sorry we have not been able to supply you with a photocopy of the original". How very nice of them to put it in writing!

[davey77]

Hey, going to go through your thread in the morning to refresh my grey cells! Will write then..

[davey77]

Hey, well, firstly. Some of your links don't seem to be working (or are very small) so i was unable to look over those agreement details again: Posts: 99,112,113,115

 

But, It seems you have three issues.

 

1. Harassment by telephone

 

2. No properly executed agreements (from what i can tell)

 

3. SARs not received in time

 

 

No.1: Abusive and misleading phone calls should be recorded. If you haven't got that recorder yet then i found this link that works well (at least with my nokia):

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telephone-recorders-reviews-write/168331-nokia-6230i-mobile-phone.html

 

What proportion of these calls are silent automated ones or from humans?

I haven't read you mention automated silent or abandoned calls especially but only from people. If it were the first one then you could make a complaint to OFCOM who view more than 1 silent call generated by a computer dialling system within a 72 hour period inappropriate and is classed by OFCOM as harassment.

 

New rules to protect consumers from silent calls | Ofcom

 

Unfortunately it seems OFCOM are less than helpful when it's humans on the other end of the line (no matter how abusive they are) as they direct you to your phone provider and/or the Police.

 

I have written to them recently to ask for clarification on the subject. I'll post the letter up in a moment so you can see what i mean.

 

No.2: I think you have said everything that needs to be said. I like the letter post 66. That covered a lot although remember it's doubtful that ever gets read all the way through if at all by these organisations.

 

(If you post up those links as big as possible that would be good.) Lets assume for now they don't add up.

You can keep requesting the agreements over and over again (as i have done) and get the same (or no) response.

 

I would request again under a slightly different tack in that:

"Thank you for your letter of the 23 Dec 2008 in which you stated that an original photocopy of any signed agreement was not available. I'm sorry to say that your reply and the documents enclosed were not sufficient for my purposes nor did they give any clear indication that a properly executed agreement exists.

 

I must therefore insist that any original agreement be located as a matter of urgency. Sending an unsigned copy that does not contain the Prescribed Terms embodied within any signature document as defined in Law will not be sufficient to fulfil my request, only a copy of any original, and Full contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances.

 

If the Original document cannot be found to fulfil this request then i ask that you write detailing your proposals to resolve this unsatisfactory position, for as i am sure you are aware, that without an original document as stated above, or only a document with mis-stated or missing Prescribed Terms an 'agreement' can be rendered unenforceable in a Court of Law.

 

Please also note that i will consider your reply to this request to be a Statement of Truth in Law and therefore Legally Binding and may be produced as evidence in any Court Action i may instigate. (To be honest i don't know if that last part carries any weight but it sounds good!)

 

I would also look at PT2537s thread here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

I think that's the route i am going to go down after spending 18 months asking for Credit Agreements under the CCA 1974.

 

No.3: (SARs) you sorted out with a complaint to the ICO. That's good and now you have a reference number to quote at anyone who asks. You SAR'd all three MBNA accounts and made three complaints to the ICO i take it?

Wait and see what happens with those complaints. It they start to take too long or the ICO don't update you then chase them up and politely ask them to get a move on!

 

Options:

 

ICO you have done.

 

FOS: The FOS take months - Probably won't uphold your complaints and i have also found out lately that they dont charge the Creditor in the first instance. It's the forth complaint in the first 12 months which is a real shame actually:

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/QG1.pdf

 

But, as CB says, making a complaint to the FOS does show you consider the matter to be in dispute and it can be verified with a reference number to quote. I had a DCA hassle me once and then they asked for proof i had a complaint lodged with the FOS, once i sent that, i never heard from them again.

So complain by all means but after you have sent it off and got back the ref number i'd forget it and not put much faith in them actually doing anything to help you in IMO.

 

TS: Depends where you live and what luck you have with the person you contact there. Again, it shows you consider the matter to be in dispute (a fact of which can then be verified by a third party.) After the ICO TS should be your next port of call. But dont let them ignore you as they did me. Keep the pressure on them and remind them of the Law (if you have to) and tell them about the phonecalls. I'd be nice and polite to start with but if they mess you around then bombard them with letters and calls until they take action. At the most, they could really help (they have helped some people, i know) and at the very worst they should acknowledge your issues and communicate with MBNA about the calls!

 

CAB: Don't have any experience with them myself but after making your complaint to TS i would call them (if you haven't done so already). You could get lucky and find someone really helpful out there in the soup.

 

OFCOM: Only if you receive silent calls (from a computer). Doubtful any eventual response to my letter will be positive.

 

BBC Watchdog: Consider an email to them.. you never know!

 

Write to the President of MBNA. If he thinks you are writing just to have a go then he won't reply. Keep it polite. Point out you have requested the agreement but have not received one conforming to the regulations and MBNA are acting against the principles of the Banking Code, OFT Debt Collection Guidance and the Consumer Credit Act. (Wouldn't bother adding all the regs and paragraphs, I'm sure he (possibly?) knows them and if your letter ends up 23 pages long quoting regulations he is going to bin it.)

 

Keep it short and sweet if possible.

 

Explain your son has health 'issues' in your own words and your OH also is on mental incapacity benefit (point made by CB in post 87) and the hounding you are receiving is only adding to your family's heath worries and the direct actions of MBNA are blocking the phone line that may be needed for medical emergencies. (You may have to give up your mobile because you can't afford it anymore etc.)

If you are still having problems with Cap1 calls then do the same there.

 

LBA: Should only really be sent if you have every intention of seeing it through to the end. Or at the very least issuing an N1, getting a hearing date and doing all the paperwork for it. LBA letters in themselves don't actually scare the Creditors much especially if you have sent one but don't then act upon it. Should you send another at a later date (serious or not) they simply won't take it seriously enough.

 

I sent a couple in the early days before i really knew what they were all about and it had no positive result. Only when i then issued the N1 and then spent 7 months with back and forth replies with all the Court stuff did it have an effect. (A few days before the hearing.)

 

If you decided to go the hole-hog (N1 issued) then be aware that future complaints to the FOS, ICO and TS would probably be met with 'we will await the outcome of your Court case and it would be inappropriate to investigate at this time'.

 

whoops.. 3.20am..time for bed!

Edited December 30, 2008 by davey77

[davey77]

OFCOM LETTER - Sent 18 Dec 2008:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like some clarification on OFCOM’s new rules introduced March 2006 regarding nuisance calls. Also OFCOM’s general stance regarding these types of call and clarification between the difference in Automated Calling Systems and calls made directly by a person or organisation and how those are viewed or dealt with by OFCOM..

 

I understand from reading OFCOM’s website that you classify several silent calls received by a consumer within a 72 hour period as harassment? There are provisions for classifying silent calls, the quantity and intent, but my query is that, surely if a computer system that calls several times a day is classed as harassment (and in doing so unduly upsets the receiver of those calls) then what is OFCOM’s policy in regards to calls that are not silent?

 

I have myself, and have helped several people in the past, deal with (or try to deal with) nuisance calls from Creditors and Debt Collection Agencies. Personally i received 8-13 calls a day, 7 days a week from 8.30am to 9.45pm. My letters requesting that they cease and desist under the Administration of Justice Act and that i would only communicate in writing and that i considered constant calls, many silent and many demanding unreasonable payment, were ignored and fell of deaf ears and thereafter the calls actually increased further. Until that is, i was forced to change my telephone number.

 

I understand there are many variables involved and a creditor may try to contact someone without success in the first instance. Perhaps they work full time or have been unavailable. But where communication has been formally requested to be in writing only after giving ample proof of an inability to pay (including benefit letters, carers allowance etc) and a formal request to stop calling 13 times a day, yet the calls continue, what would OFCOM’s position be regarding that scenario?

 

I read on the website that the Police should be informed if the calls are threatening. I have to say that, from talking to other people that have been in similar situations, that informing the Police is a pointless exercise. Creditors and DCA’s are generally not stupid enough to be outwardly threatening but surely several phone calls a day saying the same thing when a consumer has requested otherwise is a form of threatening behaviour and harassment?

 

If a computer calls 10 times a day it’s harassment, and OFCOM will investigate but if it’s a person representing an organisation who is deliberately trying to intimidate and wear down sometimes vulnerable private individuals in their own homes, then what does OFCOM call that? Not harassment but slightly annoying or nothing to do with them? Isn’t that still a misuse of the telecommunications network whether it be from a machine or a human being?

 

Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to understand OFCOMS position.

I would be very grateful if you could clarify matters.

 

Yours sincerely, Davey77

 

We shall see. Tis the holidays so i guess a reply might take a while, if i get one at all!

[davey77]

yes i realise that a mere FOS complaint ref number doesn't make a non-disputed account into a disputed one formally (sorry if my sentence was misleading) but it's just a little extra to quote to DCAs that are not well versed in such things.

 

I too have had 'this account is not in dispute' many times and at the end of the day the only thing that really makes a disputed account is Court proceedings.

 

All the same, until/if you get to that point you just have to keep saying it i believe.

[davey77]

ah there you go.. second lot are bigger. nice work. Just doing some ironing and making a roast dinner. I'll pop back later to look properly

[davey77]

Standard computer letter really.

 

I can't remember now (and have to pop out in a min) but if you are paying other creditors because they have supplied agreements yet have not paid MBNA because they have failed to supply you with an agreement then that's pretty clear and their 'concern' can be met with the same reply i would say.

 

They are just trying to get you to call them, usual tactic.

 

I'd personally wait for them to pass it to a DCA then CCA them. That could be at the end of this month.. could be at the end of the year.

 

p.s. is that a iD number at the top of the page (and code at the bottom) you should perhaps delete?

[davey77]

Hey, they know because they have checked your credit file which is updated to show recent/late/nil payments to other creditors etc

 

I know you wanted to forget about MBNA and concentrate on making progress with the others but if they are starting to be a pain then time for the TS complaint. Hopefully you will get a good TS man on the case who will battle on your behalf.

 

Or at least the CAB, as your representative, anything MBNA send could then be forwarded to them to deal with taking some of the load off.

[davey77]

OFCOM LETTER - Sent 18 Dec 2008:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like some clarification on OFCOM’s new rules introduced March 2006 regarding nuisance calls. Also OFCOM’s general stance regarding these types of call and clarification between the difference in Automated Calling Systems and calls made directly by a person or organisation and how those are viewed or dealt with by OFCOM..

 

I understand from reading OFCOM’s website that you classify several silent calls received by a consumer within a 72 hour period as harassment? There are provisions for classifying silent calls, the quantity and intent, but my query is that, surely if a computer system that calls several times a day is classed as harassment (and in doing so unduly upsets the receiver of those calls) then what is OFCOM’s policy in regards to calls that are not silent?

 

I have myself, and have helped several people in the past, deal with (or try to deal with) nuisance calls from Creditors and Debt Collection Agencies. Personally i received 8-13 calls a day, 7 days a week from 8.30am to 9.45pm. My letters requesting that they cease and desist under the Administration of Justice Act and that i would only communicate in writing and that i considered constant calls, many silent and many demanding unreasonable payment, were ignored and fell of deaf ears and thereafter the calls actually increased further. Until that is, i was forced to change my telephone number.

 

I understand there are many variables involved and a creditor may try to contact someone without success in the first instance. Perhaps they work full time or have been unavailable. But where communication has been formally requested to be in writing only after giving ample proof of an inability to pay (including benefit letters, carers allowance etc) and a formal request to stop calling 13 times a day, yet the calls continue, what would OFCOM’s position be regarding that scenario?

 

I read on the website that the Police should be informed if the calls are threatening. I have to say that, from talking to other people that have been in similar situations, that informing the Police is a pointless exercise. Creditors and DCA’s are generally not stupid enough to be outwardly threatening but surely several phone calls a day saying the same thing when a consumer has requested otherwise is a form of threatening behaviour and harassment?

 

If a computer calls 10 times a day it’s harassment, and OFCOM will investigate but if it’s a person representing an organisation who is deliberately trying to intimidate and wear down sometimes vulnerable private individuals in their own homes, then what does OFCOM call that? Not harassment but slightly annoying or nothing to do with them? Isn’t that still a misuse of the telecommunications network whether it be from a machine or a human being?

 

Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to understand OFCOMS position.

I would be very grateful if you could clarify matters.

 

Yours sincerely, Davey77

 

We shall see. Tis the holidays so i guess a reply might take a while, if i get one at all!

 

Im afraid to say that OFCOM are staffed by morons too:

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/OfcomReply.jpg

[davey77]

What a pathetic response!

 

Exactly! "...nuisance calls you have been receiving".?! What calls? I told them i had changed my number to stop the calls, therefore showing they didn't actually read the letter, just skimmed through it and got a junior member of staff to write a quick reply. I'm really quite mad about it and will probably write to the top for a proper answer.

 

Even there statement that they "do not become involved in individual complaints" is wrong. Otherwise how can they police/fine companies for silent calls if individuals haven't complained?!

[davey77]

I've had very similar from them in the past. It's the last ditch efforts to get you to cough up.

 

Call, Call, Call. And when you do call all those 'options' on the table will be conveniently forgotten and they will demand more than the letter implies.

I say 'implies' as there are no offers or statements of fact in that letter, nothing binding to them.

 

"See if we can set... call and we might be able.... discuss the possibility of.."

 

The words COLLECTION AGENCY and DEFAULT in bold and capitals to emphasise how important and scary that should be for you.. hmmm The next one might have RED CAPITALS of course, phycologically upping the ante but in point of fact just as meaningless.

 

SIX YEARS seems even longer when it's in bold of course and not forgetting the word SOLD in bold and capitals which again should make you worry dreadfully compared to when it is not in bold print.

 

And not forgetting the usual MBNA time limit of a day, date and month. I've had one sent in say March saying i have 3 weeks or else, then later looking through my paperwork from them notice the exact same letter (dated november) saying i had (another) 3 weeks etc and this was my last opportunity.

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/MBNALetter.jpg

[davey77]

Have you checked your Credit File lately (and contacted TS or CAB.)

[davey77]

I'm not sure what the ICO will do. I have heard lately they are not officially interested in unenforceable agreements or even the non-supply of the valid ones for that matter.

[davey77]

The FOS ar a waste of space I'm afraid. Much better to go the court route - at least the person pushing things through has your interests at heart because it is you!

 

How true.. but the ICO and the FOS are separate bodies?!

 

By the way, congratulations on you ten thousandth post Steven! wow!

[davey77]

The FOS ar a waste of space I'm afraid. Much better to go the court route - at least the person pushing things through has your interests at heart because it is you!

 

Steven is right though. 2 years of complaining and the only person that has ever made a difference and got a result is.. me! (Not counting all the help and advice from folks on this site including someone who stepped in and gave me so much help with the Cap1 fight.)

 

Regulatory bodies have treated me like the creditors have albeit with more politeness.

 

The only single sure fired way for TS, I.C.O, O.F.T or even the F.O.S to stand by you is to get VERY high profile (and damming) publicity. Only then do the authorities act and that is only to save face in the event of intense media scrutiny.

 

The catch is that, unfortunately, it's hard to get in the media spotlight as i have already tried with letters to National Newspapers, BBC Watchdog and Panorama. Doesn't hurt to keep trying tho...

[davey77]

The banks do seem to getting one reprieve after another at the expense of the of citizens that founded and supported them in the first instance. Makes me feel that although painful for many, and at the expense of the innocent, it might be better if the whole rotten edifice came crashing in on them.

 

If your soapbox could be used as firewood for a financial institution bonfire then I'm in.

 

A nice quote i heard once to end on: : "Guy Fawkes, the only person ever to enter the Houses of Parliament with good intentions."