Removal Company Problem

[rogertdog]

Hi,

 

Basically we recieved a quotation from 3 different companies and chose the lowest quote to use for our removal.

 

On the day of removal the people came, started to load up and then informed us that we would need to pay more as we needed another van for our belongings.

 

We argued that this was irrelevant as they had provided a quotation and therefore this constituted a legally binding agreement and that if they had not priced this correctly it was their problem not ours.

 

They then said that we either agree to the new price or they would go home.

 

Obviously we had no choice as we could not get anone else to remove us at such short notice and needed to be out of the property that day.

 

Can anyone please provide any furhter information such as:

 

- what is the legal definition of quotation and what act is this described in?

- we were made to agree under duress therfore what legal documentation does this fall under?

- who can we complain to?

 

any help/advice will be gratefull recieved.

 

many thanks.

[legalpickle]

Hi,

 

Basically we recieved a quotation from 3 different companies and chose the lowest quote to use for our removal.

 

On the day of removal the people came, started to load up and then informed us that we would need to pay more as we needed another van for our belongings.

 

We argued that this was irrelevant as they had provided a quotation and therefore this constituted a legally binding agreement and that if they had not priced this correctly it was their problem not ours.

 

They then said that we either agree to the new price or they would go home.

 

Obviously we had no choice as we could not get anone else to remove us at such short notice and needed to be out of the property that day.

 

Can anyone please provide any furhter information such as:

 

- what is the legal definition of quotation and what act is this described in?

- we were made to agree under duress therfore what legal documentation does this fall under?

- who can we complain to?

 

any help/advice will be gratefull recieved.

 

many thanks.

 

 

You can complain to Trading Standards but it is unlikely they'll do much.

 

Was the quotation written? If yes, did it have any clauses on it?

 

It is a reasonable clause - in my opinion - that if the amount of items is more than estimated - providing the estimate is clear - then the quotation will increase. But, if this wasn't written in any way on the quotation, then they - in my opinion - don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Is the company a limited company, sole trader or what?

 

Was the quotation, a 'quotation' or 'estimate'? If the latter then you don't have a case, if the former, then in my opinion you do.

 

If those answers point to you having a case, then I would write a final letter before legal action to the company, threatening to sue them for the overcharged amount, if they don't respond satisfactorily, then would sue them for the overcharged amount plus interest - which I'm assuming is not a major sum, so would go to small claims.

 

If you need more advice don't hesitate to ask.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

Good Luck.

[surfaceagentx20]

A quotation is a firm price, not to be confused with an estimate which is a statement of a guide price.

 

To be of any benefit to you, the quotation will be in writing. If it is not in writing you are going to be in difficulties evidentially speaking. Ideally the quotation will include what is to be removed (not down to the last tea spoon obviously) by reference to the major items on a room by room basis. Clearly if a quotation is based upon the notion that three beds are to be removed and you require the remover to move six, the quotation and the job do not match up.

 

On acceptance of the quotation the remover is bound to fulfill the contract for the removal of the goods at the agreed price. A refusal to do so is a clear intimation of an intention to breach.

 

A party faced with a statement of intention to breach is obliged to mitigate any resulting loss. In your case the loss may have been catostrophic and was incapable of being remedied by a contract with another remover on the day of the move. Accordingly agreeing to pay the extra demanded was an agreement made under duress and in order to mitigate the loss you would otherwise suffer.

 

Your claim will be in damages against the remover for the excess you paid plus interest (claim 8% pa) on the excess from the date the overpayment was made down to the date of repayment. I'd write demanding immediate repayment failing which there wil be litigation and their misconduct will be reported to Trading Standards. If they pay you, report them any way. If they do not pay you, report them and take out a claim at your local county court.

 

x20

[legalpickle]

A quotation is a firm price, not to be confused with an estimate which is a statement of a guide price.

 

To be of any benefit to you, the quotation will be in writing. If it is not in writing you are going to be in difficulties evidentially speaking. Ideally the quotation will include what is to be removed (not down to the last tea spoon obviously) by reference to the major items on a room by room basis. Clearly if a quotation is based upon the notion that three beds are to be removed and you require the remover to move six, the quotation and the job do not match up.

 

On acceptance of the quotation the remover is bound to fulfill the contract for the removal of the goods at the agreed price. A refusal to do so is a clear intimation of an intention to breach.

 

A party faced with a statement of intention to breach is obliged to mitigate any resulting loss. In your case the loss may have been catostrophic and was incapable of being remedied by a contract with another remover on the day of the move. Accordingly agreeing to pay the extra demanded was an agreement made under duress and in order to mitigate the loss you would otherwise suffer.

 

Your claim will be in damages against the remover for the excess you paid plus interest (claim 8% pa) on the excess from the date the overpayment was made down to the date of repayment. I'd write demanding immediate repayment failing which there wil be litigation and their misconduct will be reported to Trading Standards. If they pay you, report them any way. If they do not pay you, report them and take out a claim at your local county court.

 

x20

 

Just felt like reposting my message in different words did you now?

[surfaceagentx20]

Sorry, I had no intention of repeating your opinion since there were parts of it I didn't understand and other parts I didn't agree with.

 

x20

[legalpickle]

Sorry, I had no intention of repeating your opinion since there were parts of it I didn't understand and other parts I didn't agree with.

 

x20

 

Generally where on disagrees with anothers recommendations, they say so and point out what they disagree with and also what they agree with - part of the communal spirit of compliments and constructive criticism, rather than repost the recommendations in their own words, so that nobody can really tell what difference there is in their recommendation - well in yours besides for going to Trading Standards which wasn't a disagreement, just I doubt it will do any good.

 

It would be beneficial to the OP and to others, if you pointed out what exactly you agree with and disagree with in my post. It could be that you didn't understand my post and I should have worded it more clearly, but without this communal spirit and where one just overrides anothers post, there will be no public benefit. Who knows, maybe I could benefit from your logic, and if I could, would you want to deprive me of that?

[surfaceagentx20]

Aw now, there was meant to be a wink in that coment of mine (though where it's gone I've no idea) and I figured there was a wink in yours too. I had no idea your sense of plagiarism was so strongly held. I promise you, my post was my original work and in very large part in support of the view you had expressed.

 

This is the bit I didn't understand:

 

'It is a reasonable clause - in my opinion - that if the amount of items is more than estimated - providing the estimate is clear - then the quotation will increase. But, if this wasn't written in any way on the quotation, then they - in my opinion - don't have a leg to stand on.

 

you spoke of quotes, estimates and clear estimates in the same sentence.

 

This is the bit I disagreed with:

 

'Was the quotation, a 'quotation' or 'estimate'? If the latter then you don't have a case, if the former, then in my opinion you do.'

 

I don't adhere to the view that a man who has an estimate doesn't have a case. To say as much is to say an estimate isn't worth the paper it's written on. I don't believe that is the law. Besides and in any case, the OP spoke of a quotation only which is why I regard the OP's prospects as good.

 

Shake?

 

x20

[legalpickle]

Aw now, there was meant to be a wink in that coment of mine (though where it's gone I've no idea) and I figured there was a wink in yours too. I had no idea your sense of plagiarism was so strongly held. I promise you, my post was my original work and in very large part in support of the view you had expressed.

 

This is the bit I didn't understand:

 

'It is a reasonable clause - in my opinion - that if the amount of items is more than estimated - providing the estimate is clear - then the quotation will increase. But, if this wasn't written in any way on the quotation, then they - in my opinion - don't have a leg to stand on.

 

you spoke of quotes, estimates and clear estimates in the same sentence.

 

This is the bit I disagreed with:

 

'Was the quotation, a 'quotation' or 'estimate'? If the latter then you don't have a case, if the former, then in my opinion you do.'

 

I don't adhere to the view that a man who has an estimate doesn't have a case. To say as much is to say an estimate isn't worth the paper it's written on. I don't believe that is the law. Besides and in any case, the OP spoke of a quotation only which is why I regard the OP's prospects as good.

 

Shake?

 

x20

 

 

 

Shake.

 

I think my post needs clarifying a bit.

 

Many posters are unclear in their posts asking for help. As the OP has only posted 3 times - including for this thread, I wanted to make sure he was talking about a 'Quotation' and not an 'Estimate', hence my question.

 

My experience is an estimate is very hard to contest. I would in this case go as far as to say that if the OP received an 'estimate' and not a 'quotation' he wouldn't have a case, because it sounds like the amount he was charged was not massively different and was changed due to a difference in their estimate of the space his stuff would take up. If all this was solely based on estimates, I would doubt that his case would hold up in court at all.

 

I agree that "It is a reasonable clause - in my opinion - that if the amount of items is more than estimated - providing the estimate is clear - then the quotation will increase. But, if this wasn't written in any way on the quotation, then they - in my opinion - don't have a leg to stand on." wasn't clear, so I will rephrase.

 

In my opinion, it would be a reasonable clause that if the space needed for the OP's items is more than the moving company estimated - providing that the estimate on the amount of space or vehicles necessary is made clear in the quotation - then the quotation will have to increase. However, if no clause advising of this or clarifying that this quotation is based on a certain estimate is made in the quotation, then in my opinion they don't have a leg to stand on.

 

The bottom line depends on what was agreed and what was written in the document the OP received from them that the OP is depending on.

 

If the OP wants to PM me the document, I will look at it and advise back on here. Only advising to PM me the document as it may be confidential or include private information that the OP may not want public [such as names & addresses].

 

Thank you x20 for clarifying. I think the bottom line is that we disagree on the following;

1. You would definitely complain to Trading Standards. I couldn't care either way, because doubt they would do jack all.

2. You are more open minded than I am and would not rule out a case based on an estimate.

 

Other than that we basically agree, providing it is definitely a quotation on the next move for the OP. Now 'rogertdog', where are you?

[surfaceagentx20]

Hi legalpickle, glad of the shake.

 

I must say the impression I was left with on the instructions from the OP was that before selecting the removal company in question, the OP had sought out the most competitive price he could with three quotations to hand. Further, that the removal team had done a pricing but had got their figures wrong, hence they showed up with an under capacity van. Another van charge might amount to double the original. Finally, there wasn't much in the way of negotiation. In short, the removal company issued the OP with an ultimatum, which didn't convince me they were respectable tradesmen. They ought to have said: 'we'll take what we agreed to take for the agreed price but if you want us to take more than that we'll have to agree on an extra charge.'

 

I agree that an estimate is hard to contest in the sense that it is harder to contest than a quotation. However, an estimate will be binding unless the trademan can show the intervention of unforeseen circumstances which influences his final charge. Hence, a removal asked to estimate a price for the removal of a household might say after having viewed the contents 'I can do that work at £30.00 per hour and I estimate it will take me between 3 and 4 hours to complete. I estimate my charges at £90.00 to £120.00 per hour.' The householder relies on the expertise of the removal man to estimate with reasonable skill and care what time and fee will be charged for the work. He receives the estimate from the removal man on this basis, the same intended to operate as a representation and to induce the formation of contractual relations.

 

If the removal man presents a bill for £200.00 he will have to demonstrate the departure from his original estimate is justifiable by reason of unforeseen circumstances. If he is unable to justify any part of the additional claim the court will treat the price as the price set out in the estimate. If the removal man was free to estimate £120.00 but ultimately able to charge and recover through law the sum of £200.00 without justification, the estimate would not, as I say, be worth the paper it was written on.

 

Further, I share your view that in truth Trading Standards (TS) would in all likelihhod be unable to resolve the dispute. I suggested the threat of writing to TS as a possible means of persuading the removers to settle. The threat of writing was just another piece of weaponry with the persuasive sharp tip more in the threat of delivery than its arrival.

 

So yep we're agreed. Over to Mr Dog.

 

x20

[JonCris]

rogertdog did any of the estimators visit your home before quoting or did they base their figures on what you told them??

[legalpickle]

rogertdog did any of the estimators visit your home before quoting or did they base their figures on what you told them??

 

And if they based their figures on what you told them, what did you tell them? Did you tell them moving "3 rooms, 1 childs, 2 adults..." or did you say moving "10 boxes". If the former it's their fault, if the latter - sorry but it's your fault rogertdog.

[legalpickle]

I must say the impression I was left with on the instructions from the OP was that before selecting the removal company in question, the OP had sought out the most competitive price he could with three quotations to hand.

I read that too, but a lot of poster's don't post the exact situation as they misunderstand the differences. I therefore wanted to clarify that the OP had actually received a 'quotation' and not an 'estimate' due to the integral differences between the two.

 

Further, that the removal team had done a pricing but had got their figures wrong, hence they showed up with an under capacity van. Another van charge might amount to double the original.

Point made. It is important for the OP to say how much difference there was between the two prices. From the OP's post, it could have been adding one van to 2 vans, replacing a van for a larger van or adding another van of the same size to the first van - it's unclear how much more the charge was.

It was also not clear who had done the calculations, whether they had been provided on the basis of the OP's exact calculations - i.e. 10 boxes of this size and 10 boxes of that size - or the moving company had estimated the amount of boxes based on the OP telling them how many rooms with what large items and the approximate amount of small items. If the former, then the OP wouldn't have a case, but if the latter the OP's case would still be existent.

Finally, there wasn't much in the way of negotiation. In short, the removal company issued the OP with an ultimatum, which didn't convince me they were respectable tradesmen. They ought to have said: 'we'll take what we agreed to take for the agreed price but if you want us to take more than that we'll have to agree on an extra charge.'

I was more under the impression of "all or nothing", but yes, I was also under that impression - which leads me to my response to your bit on TS.

 

I agree that an estimate is hard to contest in the sense that it is harder to contest than a quotation. However, an estimate will be binding unless the trademan can show the intervention of unforeseen circumstances which influences his final charge.

I disagree here. If an estimate is clearly marked as an 'estimate' it can go slightly up or down, so if the increase was substantial - like double the price - it would be unreasonable, but if it was say £50 more - on an estimate - I don't think that would be unreasonable.

 

Hence, a removal asked to estimate a price for the removal of a household might say after having viewed the contents 'I can do that work at £30.00 per hour and I estimate it will take me between 3 and 4 hours to complete. I estimate my charges at £90.00 to £120.00 per hour.' The householder relies on the expertise of the removal man to estimate with reasonable skill and care what time and fee will be charged for the work. He receives the estimate from the removal man on this basis, the same intended to operate as a representation and to induce the formation of contractual relations.

You are right that an estimate would be relied upon as the removal company should be more experienced in estimating the time, quantity & expenses than the OP [or indeed most other people who don't work in removals or similar things] and therefore make that estimate with reasonable skill and care. But I disagree that an 'estimate' has such a strong contractual meaning binding both parties to that exact price. An 'estimate' is exactly that - an 'estimate', meaning that it is subject to change and if it changes by a reasonable amount, that isn't unreasonable. But if it were to change by say, £200 on a total sum of £600 it would definitely be unreasonable. [if it were to change £200 on a sum of £10k, that wouldn't be unreasonable.]

 

If the removal man presents a bill for £200.00 he will have to demonstrate the departure from his original estimate is justifiable by reason of unforeseen circumstances. If he is unable to justify any part of the additional claim the court will treat the price as the price set out in the estimate. If the removal man was free to estimate £120.00 but ultimately able to charge and recover through law the sum of £200.00 without justification, the estimate would not, as I say, be worth the paper it was written on.

I disagree again. An estimate is in my opinion a ball-park figure meaning that plus/minus a reasonable amount is fair. It is my experience that courts and arbitration schemes treat it just like that.

 

From what you detail the estimate is extremely similar to a quotation, in fact so similar that there are no material differences. A quotation is as you detail and the removal company cannot depart from that price unless the OP materially changes the amount of stuff to move - if he adds 10 boxes at the last minute that would do it.

 

That is the reason it is important for the OP to confirm that it was indeed a 'Quotation' and not an 'Estimate'. It would also be interesting to know how far the total charged departed from the other figures that he received from the 2 other companies and if those were marked as a 'Quotation' or an 'Estimate'.

 

Further, I share your view that in truth Trading Standards (TS) would in all likelihhod be unable to resolve the dispute. I suggested the threat of writing to TS as a possible means of persuading the removers to settle. The threat of writing was just another piece of weaponry with the persuasive sharp tip more in the threat of delivery than its arrival.

Glad to hear we're in agreement on this point, but I disagree that - considering the removal company is likely to be not a very reputable company, as agreed above - it will do much to scare them. My guess is that they have tried this on before and obviously not much has happened to them, so I doubt that the threat of TS would help much.

 

It would obviously depend on how experienced [problematic] they are, but as threatening to report them to the TS wouldn't cost the OP anymore, I guess it's worth a try, but he shouldn't pin any hopes on TS - I wanted to make that clear. If they are a hassle to report to and need meetings and the like - and some TS departments do, however stupid it may sound - then he should drop TS. But if it's a simple letter and short telephone conversation, then fine.

 

Court action - i.e. the claim form on their desk would probably do much more than the threat of TS or even TS themselves.

 

Offer to the OP: If you give PM me the company details I can check their exact status and if they are a limited company how many - if any - CCJ's they have. Though this won't be an indication of how many times they have been taken to court before, it will indicate how reliable they are with paying such debts if they fail in court or get Judgment in Default. If the amount is a substantial sum and if they have lots of CCJ's that are not Satisfied and are a relatively small company, I would say that your chances of getting the money out of them are low, which should be another consideration as they don't sound to reputable to me.

 

Remember, if one quote is substantially cheaper than another then something is too good to be true so don't take it on. If you use that rule there is less chance of such a case re-occurring.

 

rogertdog: Are you out there somewhere???

[the_grey_squirrel]

rogertdog, I take it they didn't visit your home? If they did, it is their fault for underestimating the amount of stuff to move.

 

Did you fill in one of those home contents forms that estimates how many cubic feet your items are and did you keep a copy of it?

Using the inventory, can you show that information on the form was accurate?

[JonCris]

Whilst it helps if they did, even if they didn't visit your home pre moving day I do think a court would frown on them demanding further payment AFTER loading your property onto their vehicle knowing that you had no choice but to pay.

 

The court & you will be able to ask if when they got to your home & saw 1st hand the amount of goods to be moved did they not raise the question of increased payment then

 

They may have had genuine grounds to demand extra payment but I think they greatly prejudiced their case when they did what they did

 

Therefore IMHO you may have a reasonable case to demand a refund failing which to issue proceedings

[legalpickle]

Whilst it helps if they did, even if they didn't visit your home pre moving day I do think a court would frown on them demanding further payment AFTER loading your property onto their vehicle knowing that you had no choice but to pay.

 

The court & you will be able to ask if when they got to your home & saw 1st hand the amount of goods to be moved did they not raise the question of increased payment then

 

They may have had genuine grounds to demand extra payment but I think they greatly prejudiced their case when they did what they did

 

Therefore IMHO you may have a reasonable case to demand a refund failing which to issue proceedings

 

Definitely if it was based on a quotation and they estimated the amount of space. However if it was an estimate and the increase in price was not major or if the OP estimated the amount of boxes or told them 3 rooms and there were 5 rooms, then no case in my opinion.

 

For this reason, the OP needs to respond to the numerous other posts before further advice can be given.

----------------------------------------------------------

I don't understand "The court & you will be able to ask if when they got to your home & saw 1st hand the amount of goods to be moved did they not raise the question of increased payment then"

 

From my understanding of the OP's post, they raised the issue of more payment as soon as they realized that the space needed would be more than was previously understood, and probably couldn't have raised it any sooner because they didn't realize it till the goods were loading up.

 

Also, even if they had raised the issue of the new price, had they realized, as soon as they entered the OP's property to remove all the stuff, it would still have put the OP under intense pressure as it would have been next to impossible to get another company to come at a similar price at the last minute. So it would be irrelevant.

[JonCris]

A so called professional removal firm couldn't estimate, with some measure of accuracy, the extent of the goods & transport needed until they had finished loading................. what utter rubbish.

[legalpickle]

A so called professional removal firm couldn't estimate, with some measure of accuracy, the extent of the goods & transport needed until they had finished loading................. what utter rubbish.

 

I agree 100% but you miss my point. If they were so incompetent that they "couldn't estimate, with some measure of accuracy, the extent of the goods & transport needed" with the quote, then it's irrelevant as to whether or not they could estimate them when they showed up as the OP anyway had no choice but to use them considering the last minute and it's entirely possible that they "couldn't estimate, with some measure of accuracy, the extent of the goods & transport needed until they had finished loading" as they were obviously not such a professional firm.

 

Your question that the OP and court could pose is therefore irrelevant.

[JonCris]

Let me understand your argument is that because they are unprofessional & incompetent they are exonerated from their unprofessional & incompetent behaviour

 

Must remember that one if my ability is ever questioned "Sir I'm cr*p so am not responsible for my incompetence":confused:

 

Oh pleeeease

 

Of course their conduct is important when it comes to demanding a refund & when a court learns of said conduct they won't be impressed

Edited August 25, 2008 by JonCris

[legalpickle]

Let me understand your argument is that because they are unprofessional & incompetent they are exonerated from their unprofessional & incompetent behaviour

 

Must remember that one if my ability is ever questioned "Sir I'm cr*p so am not responsible for my incompetence":confused:

 

Oh pleeeease

 

Of course their conduct is important when it comes to demanding a refund & when a court learns of said conduct they won't be impressed

 

No. I am not exonerating them! Of course a court would not be impressed with their conduct and I have not said anything to the opposite.

 

If you would read my posts, rather than argue with me on every single point, maybe you'd realize what I'm saying which I'll reiterate here as clearly as possible.

 

1. As the OP was already under pressure and could not have found an alternative company at a reasonable price at the last minute, it would have been irrelevant whether they told him of the increase when no boxes were in the van or when 10 boxes were in the van. It would not have made life any easier for the OP.

 

2. If their quotation was based on their estimates of the amount of boxes the OP would need moving on the basis of the amount of rooms and large items he had told them about, then they were obviously not competent to "estimate, with some measure of accuracy, the extent of the goods & transport needed" at that stage, one could hardly expect them to have any competence at a later stage. Also, if this was the case at the beginning the court is already not going to be impressed with their conduct [putting it mildly], I hardly think the difference in advice of half an hour is going to make the court - or anybody else [it sure doesn't to me] - any less impressed with their conduct.

 

However all this is speculation so is irrelevant till the OP answers the questions posed.

Edited August 25, 2008 by legalpickle
clarification

[JonCris]

The point is that if they did present him with a take it or leave demand at the 11th hour then the OP does have grounds to request a refund.

 

Also had he had time once they asked for more money he would have well within in rights to demand the return of his goods

[raydetinu]

Rogerdog has gone quiet?

Quotes are usually based on house size, 3 or 4 bed say; Removers are quite experienced in this, they usually ask about garden stuff, bulky items such as pianos, fridges etc. what size van did they turn up with.

7.5t, 15t or bedford luton?

The quote or estimate must be based on something? and it is with this in mind you have to judge whether theay are being fair or you are being ripped off.

If it is the latter then you can take them to court.

[legalpickle]

The point is that if they did present him with a take it or leave demand at the 11th hour then the OP does have grounds to request a refund.

That point was not argued against, but it is irrelevant that it was 10 minutes into the move or just before the move when they arrived, as both were basically in the 11th hour.

 

This is not however that clear cut. If the OP had received an 'estimate' or had provided them with incorrect figures, then they would have had no choice but to add a charge, again requiring the OP to respond to the numerous posts before conclusive advice can be given.

 

Also had he had time once they asked for more money he would have well within in rights to demand the return of his goods

Of course, but this is irrelevant to the case at hand and I fail to see your point in raising it. The OP did not say that they refused to give him his goods back had he refused the additional charge and the case is not that they took the goods and refused to give him them back, so this point - of yours - is just adding more irrelevant posts to the thread, making it more confusing.

[raydetinu]

If I remember correctly all the firms I contacted about my move from Bristol to Cornwall sent an inventory list which I had to fill in before they would give a firm price.

[JonCris]

Rogerdog has gone quiet?

Quotes are usually based on house size, 3 or 4 bed say; Removers are quite experienced in this, they usually ask about garden stuff, bulky items such as pianos, fridges etc. what size van did they turn up with.

7.5t, 15t or bedford luton?

The quote or estimate must be based on something? and it is with this in mind you have to judge whether theay are being fair or you are being ripped off.

If it is the latter then you can take them to court.

 

 

I don't have a problem with them making a mistake with their quote, happens all the time. My point of contention is why wait until you have loaded up BEFORE demanding further payment. Surely once at the house & seeing the contents they would KNOW what was required before even starting the process

 

Cheapest quote!! sounds like a con to me

[surfaceagentx20]

Mr Dog has said woof all since he posted. I say we kennel him until he puts flesh to his bones. There's way too much second guessing going on.

 

x20