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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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Natwest LOAN CCA HELP!!!


dacascos42
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This is what I received from a Miss Jo Kwok from the OFT:

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

Given the reconstructed copy is completely different from the original it cannot be a true copy and again it is NOT signed and they don't have a signed copy on file.

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Sent a letter to Richard Hemsly to tell him he has misconceptions about what they have to supply in regards to the CCA and that so far they have not done this, got a letter back from haed office saying that in light of my latest letter they are contacting those involved and are going to investigate and then give me a final desicion from the bank executive.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Received a letter back from Richard Hemsley stating that although they have lost the original agreement the reconstructed one stands as a true copy and they have satisfied my CCA request. Also he has told me they will not return the money they have yaken whilst they are in default.

 

I have sent all letters, documents and emails off to the ICO to see if they can investigate. Still have not heard from RBS head office but did send them a letter regarding the one I got from RH and asked them if they agree with his statement.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just a quick question, who has to legally look into any CCA complaints we make as a consumer. I have contacted FOS, ICO, TS, OFT and FSA with my complaint. FOS are investigating, TS don't seem to care so who can I complain to about them?. ICO said they only deal with the Data Protection Act, OFT said they don't look at individual cases and refered me to consumer direct who then refered me to OFT and FOS.

 

I have also emailed (and posted) a letter to RBS head office but would like to know if anyone has a contact for the new CEO of RBS. So far I only get customer relations managers spouting on about them compliying.

 

I would also like to know that if a creditor reproduced an agreement knowing it was not as the original and then used this on their system as the agreement would it come under section 2 of the fraud act 2006 'fraud by mis representation'?

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Trading Standards are the ones that should take up your complaint.

 

There are a number of sections in the FA2006 worth looking at.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Right, I have been back and forth with NatWest/RBS regarding my loan agreement. Even though they have admitted to not being able to find it they continue to rely upon the reconstructed one as 'true copy'.

 

I then asked them if they would be so kind as to supply me with a signed copy of the agreement so they could back up their claim even though they are not obliged to do so it would show willing and that if there was no signed agreement and they were using the new recreated one on file then they were committing fraud.

 

There response was that a hand written true copy of an original loan agreement does not have to be signed (it's not a true copy) or include dates (because they don't know the date the form was signed). As the loan agreement was reconstructed from information held on the database it is not fraud. (agreement is not signed and no signed copy exists)

 

They commented about the fact I got a PPI refund so the financial information on the new one is different for that reason however if it was a 'true copy' it would not matter whether I got a PPI refund as it would have to be a copy of the agreement that was signed when the loan was taken out therefore their argument is irrelevant.

 

They then go on to state that I had the loan in 2005 and paid the monthly payments and did not question them and did not request a copy of the loan agreement until the middle of this year. Again this is irrelevant as I have the right to request a copy agreement whenever I choose.

 

They are sticking to the fact that the agreement is valid. However I have never received a letter from an executive of the bank, it is always a Manager of group customer relations.

 

I now have a FOS adjudicator on the case who I have spoken to, he says that they have probably lost the original but does not think that I will get the payments back whilst they are in default. He was also going on about the fact they gave me a copy of the agreement when I got the loan and why I wanted another one. He also wanted to know what outcome I was hoping for, he said that it could be proved I took the loan which I am not disputing, it is the agreement I am disputing and the fact they have lost the original, lied and created a new one and continue to take payments for an agreement that is not executed.

 

I do not know what to do to be honest as every avenue I have tried gets me nowhere. If you take the CCA for black and white Natwest did not and have not complied. This I have told them time and time again and still they say they have.

 

What to do next?:mad:

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They have responded to your CCA request.

 

What is in question is whether it is a valid response.

 

They have recreated the agreement based on their records.

 

You can show that there are material differences between the original & what they have supplied.

 

s77-78 are in the act so that you can be sure of the terms of the original agreement. As they have got it wrong in several parts that you know of, you cannot trust any part of it. They obviously don't have sufficient information on their database to recreate the agreement accurately. A CCA request would reveal what information they are relying on to do the recreation. Anything short of a document/template reference along with a change-control history to show that the correct version has been supplied & the actual values inserted into it, plus an original blank copy would be insufficient

 

Any argument about you having a copy of the agreement at the beginning of the contract is irrelevant - so did NatWest. They have mislaid their copy too and neither of you know the precise terms that were agreed and whether the original agreement was enforceable.

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Also remember if you litigate & they claim the agreement is valid in their 'statement of truth' it's important to question the signatory as to their involvement in constructing the agreement. If you can show they had no such involvement (which is highly probably as it's often the lawyer who signs) then you can discredit their evidence in the eyes of the court

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Will have to wait and see what the FOS has to say as RBS customer relations said will no longer reply to my letters. That is why I am trying to find the CEO contact and see what he has to say if anything as I don't want to deal with lower management.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Update........

 

Since filing a complaint with the FOS Natwest have stopped taking the payments out. Since July they have been taking payments without my consent by internal bank transfers and setting up standing orders but this month no money has been removed.

 

Will wait to see what happens next.

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Spoke too soon, money was taken on the 22nd, b*st*rds.

 

have emailed head office to voice my disappointment in them (like that's gonna do anything).

 

They obviously believe they've complied.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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  • 3 months later...

HI all,

 

been a while and I have had the result back from the FOS, not good as they are siding with Natwest. I'm a touch confused because they are basing the result on the fact Natwest can prove the loan exists but this was never the complaint. The complaint was that Natwest had not complied and have still not complied with my request.

 

Natwest also told the FOS they they had suspended payments in August but I can prove no suspension has been in place and the money has still been taken by Natwest. It seems the non complience with the Consumer Credit Act is irrelevant, as long as a creditor can prove a loan was set up that's all the FOS need.

 

Natwest also sent the FOS a computer print out of a credit agreement which differed from the hand written one they sent me which they claimed was a true copy, but it did match the original one. I am wondering whether the FOS forwarded a copy of their copy they had from my PPI claim to prove it was in joint names and Natwest then entered this info onto a computer agreement and faxed it accross as the agreement made was never computer generated and all hand written. I'm also sure that it had a seperate signiture document which is another reason for my request as all I have is the breakdown.

 

What would be my next course of action, I need help in forcing Natwest to provide me with the complete document including signitures and if they cannot does this not show that the FOS investigation was flaud.

 

Any help at this stage would be appreciated

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1) why do you not open an account with a different bank? the cooperative bank and nationwide open basic accounts to people with defaults even. You should do this as soon as possible. Natwest will keep taking payments from accounts you hold with them or the RBS group. So do something about it.

 

2) why did you take the case to the FOS? unless there is a case of fraud, the FOS will always tell you that you should repay money you borrowed. THEY DO NOT HAVE THE POWERS TO DECLARE AN AGREEMENT UNENFORCEABLE. THIS CAN BE BE DONE BY THE COURT ONLY. You are wasting your time with FOS, give the case to a no win no fee solicitor to declare it unenforceable if you think the agreement is flawed in some way.

 

3) If they do not give you the signed agreement, follow the procedure for pre-action disclosure. There is a thread for this. The court can force them to disclose what they hold. It costs £40 and you will not be liable for their costs if you follow the procedure correctly.

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The complaint to the FOS was not regarding the enforcability of the loan but the CCA request made to Natwest and the fact Natwest did not send the correct documentation and continued to take money.

 

Also found out that the FOS faxed Natwest the original breakdown from my PPI complaint so Natwest could recreate it and fax it back to the FOS as a true copy, this surley cannot be allowed can it. As it was a compaint regarding what was supplied to me was not correct then the FOS should not have passed this info onto Natwest as it gave Natwest the chance to recreate the document using info provided by the FOS and then send it back to the FOS making my case for non complience with my CCA nul and void.

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  • 11 months later...

Hi all been a long time but starting the process again, this time taking the N244 route as suggested in other posts to see if I can get the information I require (especially signed agreement) even though I have been told they do not hold the original agreement.

 

Will follow step by step with the 3 letters giving them enough time to reply and if nothing then the N244 via the court. My question is what happens if they are not forthcoming with the information via the court request, where do I stand and what action would be next.

 

Gonna be anither long hall but have had luck with MBNA and CAP ONE and feel the energy coming back for another fight.

 

Will keep all posted....

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest MamaG1

Would like to be updated on this pls. I am in a similar situation, still trying to finslioise the PPI refunds they have paid into the loan accounts that they have not produced CCA to me for.

 

They have also said they have paid some back into the current accounthtye closed that I do not have use of anymore??. I am not sure what step to take next, pls advise

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  • 2 months later...

Got another one for you, after entering into a hardship agrrement with Natwest last year due to redundancy they have now suspended access to my account and are demanding the arrears from the hardship payments 10 days after the hardship agreement ended.

 

I cannot access my account either online or via cash points and have to phone them up to arrange for me to go into a branch and take money out. This has come out of the blue with no warning as I used my card on 24/06/10 and have now got a default notice on the 25/06/10 dated 24/06/10.

 

I understand direct debits and standing orders will still be paid and I am in the process of arranging funds to be paid into another account but wondered if I am able to go into a branch and set up a new standing order for a one off payment so I can move the rest of the money so I have access to it and whether they have to adhere to the request.

 

Any help would be grateful

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  • 4 weeks later...

got them to remove the block on my account, gentlman on the phone said it should not have been blocked until default was in force so have emptied account into another one.

 

I also tried to arrange a payment plan but no luck as they gave me 3 options, new loan for arrears, 6 months at a whopping £800 or wait for defailt and recoveries take over.

 

Useless, what about the banking code, try to do what they can for their customers.

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  • 9 months later...

Hi, been along time but RBS dispute still going. Long story short, after hardship agreement ended RBS tried to get me to consolidate the loan however they wanted to add the backpayments to the total ammount owing

 

£5000 debt owed inclusive of interest, £3000 arrears still only amounts to a total debt of £5000 (of which £3000 overdue).

 

What collections suggested was take the £5000 + £3000 = £8000 plus interest on top of that, this in essence would double the debt owed and also it would be charging double the interest as the original £5000 debt had already been calculated with interest included.

 

I obviously declined this generous offer, then I was bombarded with Triton letters and phone calls but I soon put an end to that by threatening them by email and including the OFT and Stephen Hester on ALL emails. They then resorted to sending a letter from Green and Co solicitors (RBS) again I replied direct and heard nothing for months until March 2011 when I got a letter from Shoosmiths solicitors threatening court action.

 

Now, after receiving this, speaking to the OFT and reading the CCA 1974 it was clear that whilst RBS do NOT have a signed agreement as they have admitted then under the OFT guidlines RBS should not be using a solicitor to threaten court action. Shoosmiths gave me 14 days to reply which I did direct via email so I had proof of contact and explianed the situation and asked if they had a copy of the signed agreement from RBS to base their case on and if I could have a copy. again sent copies to OFT, I have sent a further 3 emails to them but have yet to get a reply back.

 

Has anyone dealt with these before or had this company ignore them. I tend to copy the OFT into all my emails now so I have a third party receiving proof of emails as they are looking into the conduct of RBS as they have a copy of everything going back to 2008.

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