Problems with RBS Re: SAR for PPI details

[rocker1968]

I've banked with RBS since 1991. Since 2000 I've had 3 loans including my current one - basically I've refinance them. The 2 closed loans had PPI. I sent a SAR to RBS on 4th March. Since then there have been loads of letters going back and forth and they have provided lots of info - no of which I had asked for or was relevant. Their latest letter says that they cant provide info on the 2 closed loan accounts without the accounts numbers. All my loans have been linked to my current account which I've had for 17 years. I'm now am at a loss of knowing what to do. Should I complain to the Information Commissioner (which could take months) or make a couort claim for an estimated amount for a PPI refund.

 

Can anyone advise please - Thanx

[adamski]

Although this site advocates sending S.A.R.S in my experience and please note this is my own opinion, that you never recieve what you are entitled to and information sent is often indecipherable or incomplete and in my opinion a waste of £10 and time, but it is the correct way to do things.

 

Send a letter in requesting a refund on whatever grounds you believe you have, when you get close to truth which you will if you percivere they will tell you the full amount.

 

Don't give up at the first rejection letter or the second or the third keep at them and you will win unless you do not have good grounds for a refund.

[alanalana]

Hello rocker1968,

 

welcome to the PPI forum.

 

Be ready for a long haul with RBS they do not make life easy on PPI reclaims. I have had much of the same cannot find loan details etc etc.

 

If you get a couple of hours see my thread and pick out the bits that may help you to shorten the agony of dealing with RBS.

 

alanalana PPI claim against RBS (looking for some help) please

 

hope this gives you hope.

 

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Hello,

 

The rbs and the nastywest are not very good at proving information if it is going to cost them money.

 

Sorry Adamski, but I disagree regarding sending the SAR. I think it turns up vital information, which could be extremely important, especially when they don't comply:lol:

[adamski]

Fair point, was just saying that in my experience it never helps.

[rocker1968]

Thanks Alanalana - I read your thread with interest and great amusement. I see you've been dealing with the infamous Joyce Tudor as well.

 

I've decided, as they wont comply to my SAR to claim on an estimated amount.

 

I've used one of the template letters (see below). can anyone tell me if they think this is ok to send.

 

Thanks

 

The Royal Bank of Scotland xxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx xxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

xxxxxx

xxxxxxx 18th July 2008

xxxxxxx

 

My Ref: xxxxxxx

 

 

 

Dear Ms xxxx,

 

Sort Code: xx-xx-xx

Current Account Number: xxxxxxxx

I believe I have been mis-sold a Payment Protection Insurance policy and would like to request a full refund of my premiums, plus interest paid.

 

Apart from my current loan with RBS, I have held at least 2 other personal loans with RBS since 2000, both of which had Payment Protection Insurance.

At the time I was experiencing short-term financial difficulties and I was told by ‘John …’ that the underwriter at RBS would not approve the loan unless I agreed to take out the insurance.

No claim was ever made under this policy.

I now realise following the recent OFT and FSA investigations, that you mis-sold me this insurance policy, which I did not want and did not need. I believe I signed up for the insurance under economic duress and that your actions were unconscionable.

 

Your responsibilities

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract, which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my loan accounts in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

Firstly, I understand that at the time I entered into the contract with you, your bank was running an incentive scheme to encourage your employees to sell PPI schemes, as were several other High Street banks.

 

I was not aware of this and even if it is untrue, I consider that there was a clear conflict of interest between your fiduciary responsibilities to me and the direct selling by your employees of PPI schemes, given the very large profit margins they generate.

 

No attempt was made to ascertain if the product provided was fit for purpose, suitable for my needs or if indeed if I really needed it at all. No inquiry was made as to whether I had preexisting insurance for accident, illness or unemployment. I was not given a copy of the insurance policy nor were any rights to cancel explained. I believe you manifestly failed in your fiduciary responsibilities, your duty of care.

 

Secondly, I understand under the Consumer Credit Acts and following a House of Lords judgment that you are not allowed to make a loan conditional on taking PPI unless you include the costs of PPI as part of the charge for credit and not the credit itself.

 

You did not do this. You added it to the total for credit and then charged me further interest on the premium on top of the interest for the loan. This is unacceptable.

 

Finally I believe insurance contracts are contracts uberrimae fidei (contracts of the utmost good faith) which imposes on you a “duty of disclosure of all material facts because one party is in a strong position to know the truth.” Inter alia, I believe that you should have disclosed to me that the type of policy you sold me, a single payment premium, did not give a pro-rata refund in event of early settlement. I believe you should have made it clear to me that the policy generated large profits for you. You failed to do this. I believe that you have also therefore failed in your duty of disclosure. Your failure to disclose is misrepresentation at common law.

 

What I require

 

Your concealment of the act of mis-selling has prevented me from asserting my right until now. I believe that there are strong grounds for action against you under common law, statute and consumer regulations.

As you are aware I wrote to you on 4th March requesting details on all personal loans I have held with RBS. Following extensive correspondence from you regarding my Subject Access Request you have said that you are unable to provide me with the details that I requested and therefore you have failed to comply with my Subject Access Request and you are in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998.

Because of this I have had to estimate the PPI that I have been charged which I have based on the current cost of your PPI schemes.

 

I require a full refund of all premiums, which I estimate to be £4500, and subsequent interest on these payments, that I have paid in relation to this policy. I also expect 8% interest to be added to each payment I have made, as this is the statutory amount a court would pay under S69 of the County Court Act.

My targets to resolve this matter

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets. I will give you 14 days to reply accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that this time frame is sufficient for a large company such as yours with its dedicated staff and departments. After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim through the courts at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[alanalana]

Hello rocker,

 

Sort Code: xx-xx-xx

Current Account Number: xxxxxxxx

 

I believe I have been mis-sold a (should this not be 3 PPIs) ?Payment Protection Insurance policy and would like to request a full refund of my premiums, plus interest paid.

 

Apart from my current loan with RBS, I have held at least 2 other personal loans with RBS since 2000, both of which had Payment Protection Insurance.

 

At the time I was experiencing short-term financial difficulties and I was told by ‘John …’ that the underwriter at RBS would not approve the loan unless I agreed to take out the insurance.

 

No claim was ever made under this policy.

 

I now realise following the recent OFT and FSA (and ICO) investigations, that you mis-sold me this insurance policy, which I did not want and did not need. I believe I signed up for the insurance under economic duress and that your actions were unconscionable.

 

Your responsibilities

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract, which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my loan accounts in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

Firstly, I understand that at the time I entered into the contract with you, your bank was running an incentive scheme to encourage your employees to sell PPI schemes, as were several other High Street banks.

I was not aware of this and even if it is untrue, I consider that there was a clear conflict of interest between your fiduciary responsibilities to me and the direct selling by your employees of PPI schemes, given the very large profit margins they generate.

 

No attempt was made to ascertain if the product provided was fit for purpose, suitable for my needs or if indeed if I really needed it at all. No inquiry was made as to whether I had pre-existing insurance for accident, illness or unemployment. I was not given a copy of the insurance policy nor were any rights to cancel explained. I believe you manifestly failed in your fiduciary responsibilities, your duty of care.

 

Secondly, I understand under the Consumer Credit Acts and following a House of Lords judgment that you are not allowed to make a loan conditional on taking PPI unless you include the costs of PPI as part of the charge for credit and not the credit itself.

 

You did not do this. You added it to the total for credit and then charged me further interest on the premium on top of the interest for the loan. This is unacceptable.

 

Finally I believe insurance contracts are contracts uberrimae fidei (contracts of the utmost good faith) which imposes on you a “duty of disclosure of all material facts because one party is in a strong position to know the truth.” Inter alia, I believe that you should have disclosed to me that the type of policy you sold me, a single payment premium, did not give a pro-rata refund in event of early settlement. I believe you should have made it clear to me that the policy generated large profits for you. You failed to do this. I believe that you have also therefore failed in your duty of disclosure. Your failure to disclose is misrepresentation at common law.

What I require

 

Your concealment of the act of mis-selling has prevented me from asserting my right until now. I believe that there are strong grounds for action against you under common law, statute and consumer regulations.

 

As you are aware I wrote to you on 4th March requesting details on all personal loans I have held with RBS. Following extensive correspondence from you regarding my Subject Access Request you have said that you are unable to provide me with the details that I requested and therefore you have failed to comply with my Subject Access Request and you are in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

Because of this I have had to estimate the PPI that I have been charged which I have based on the current cost of your PPI schemes.

 

I require a full refund of all premiums, which I estimate to be £4500, and subsequent interest on these payments, that I have paid in relation to this policy. I also expect 8% interest to be added to each payment I have made, as this is the statutory amount a court would pay under S69 of the County Court Act.

My targets to resolve this matter

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets. I will give you 14 days to reply accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that this time frame is sufficient for a large company such as yours with its dedicated staff and departments. After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim through the courts at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

Yours sincerely, (Yours faithfully is more formal)

You may wish to consider sticking this in somewhere as well as the Competition Commissioner has publicised his preliminary findings on PPI sales.

Please see this link.....

Current inquiry by the Competition Commission into PPI PRELIMINARY FINDINGS this is ongoing......

http://www.competition-commission.or.../pdf/18-08.pdf

 

7. Unfair attachment of PPI with no competition involvement

I now believe that the single premium PPI policies attached to the loan accounts were both extremely unfair and totally unreasonable and offered me very little, if any protection value whatsoever. Furthermore I believe in light of the preliminary finding by the Competition Commission that the PPI was unfairly attached as there was no opportunity for me to seek competitive Insurance. I am therefore requesting a full refund of all costs including all single PPI premiums that have been paid, the interest added to these premiums and the PPI proportion of the direct debit payments, that I have paid over the life of the account agreement.

hope you don't mind my suggestions:eek: and good luck:D

aa

[adamski]

rocker

Well put together letter, I recognise a lot of it but I can see you have added much to it.

Send it!

 

In fact in reading it again its fantastic this should subbed and stickied by a mod

I will send a message and see what they say

Edited July 18, 2008 by adamski

[rocker1968]

Thanks guys.

 

I sent the letter to RBS yesterday by Special Delivery.

 

I'll keep you infomred of any response I get and progress I make.

 

Take care

[alanalana]

hello rocker,

 

will watch with interest don't hold your breath for a fast response and keep to the 8 week deadline.

 

My first claim letter sent 2 June due response by 29 July nothing yet.

Second claim letter sent 9 June goodwill offer made I am now asking for the interest on top.

I have already logged a case number on claim 2 in case I get a negative. at least it puts me in the queue with the FOS to reduce the 6-9 month delay.

Claim 1 all the correspondence in bundles as is case 2 ready to post the FOS are requesting my complaints are dealt with as 2 due to the difference in timings.

 

good luck;)

 

aa

[rocker1968]

They've already had since 4th March to comply with my SAR and were playing silly buggers. I'm not going to bother with the FOS - going to go down the Court route and I've given them the standard 14 days until LBA and then another 14 days.

 

Good luck with yours!!

[ukaviator]

Hi Team

 

It is a good letter but there is also this to consider:

 

Burden of Proof:

 

The general rule is that “he who asserts must prove”, i.e., the burden rests with the plaintiff (the party bringing the action).

 

The exceptions to this rule include an allegation of frustration where a plaintiff sues for breach of contract. In this situation a defendant would have the legal burden of proving that he was unable to complete the contract due to the fault of another person, or another act eg Fire, theft.

 

Evidential Burden:

 

This is the burden on a party to adduce enough evidence of an allegation to enable the magistrate or judge to allow the issue to be heard and examined in court (i.e., some evidence supporting the contention other than simply the legal representative coming up with a story off the top of his head).

 

This rule mainly refers to the burden on a defendant to put forward evidence of provocation, self defence or alibi etc.

 

When enough evidence has been raised, the prosecution would then have to disprove that evidence to the required standard of proof.

 

Standard of Proof - Civil cases

 

The standard of proof on both parties is proof on the balance of probabilities, i.e., that an allegation is more probable than not.

 

I would not estimate claims, you need the "Burden of Proof". Remember you are dealing with the most ferocious companies on the planet here, and they will send along a Barrister to make mincemeat out of you. They have been known to turn up for less than £150 if they know someone has a very weak case. Some have gotten away very lightly on here, because the bank, credit card company has dropped the ball, and they have won by default.

 

You could end up paying costs as well. So please do not file against a financial institution unless you can back up your claim with evidence. When you have that, it is very difficult for them to wriggle out of it, don't give them any excuses.

 

This is a war, so take no prisoners guys ..

[rocker1968]

Almost good news!! eventually found out from RBS that I only had PPI linked to one loan. They obviously cant find any of the original paperwork so they have upheld my complaint - I'm waiting for a calculation to come through from their PPI customer concerns team.

 

Does anyone know if they include stat interest automatically or do you have to fight for that?

 

Another important question I've got is that I have refinanced this loan 3 times since 2004 and because of the PPI ( approx £4k including interest) on the original loan I have been paying extra interest on the refinanced loans. Do I have an argument to claim back the interest that I've paid on this extra £4k on the refinanced loans?

 

Thank you and Good Luck!!

[alanalana]

Hello rocker,

 

Almost good news!! eventually found out from RBS that I only had PPI linked to one loan. I would question this fact if they have no paper work and you don't they could be fobbing you off on the others loans you mentioned in your first post. They obviously cant find any of the original paperwork so they have upheld my complaint - I'm waiting for a calculation to come through from their PPI customer concerns team. Pleased for you:). I bet they offer a goodwill gesture with no admission of liability.

 

Does anyone know if they include stat interest automatically or do you have to fight for that? From my own experience they offered refund of premiums paid and the interest on those premiums but no stat. I asked for the 8% stat but they turned me down so I banged in a complaint to the FOS. The bank revised their goodwill gesture after the FOS contacted them. Figure increased by approx 30%.

So if they say no go to the FOS. This in fact will cost them a fee payable to the FOS for their involvement, you may wish to point that out to them if they refuse the stat interest as well.

 

Another important question I've got is that I have refinanced this loan 3 times since 2004 and because of the PPI ( approx £4k including interest) on the original loan I have been paying extra interest on the refinanced loans. Do I have an argument to claim back the interest that I've paid on this extra £4k on the refinanced loans? I do not have an answer on this one as I did not do that. Maybe with hindsight I should have, it's always worth a shout.

 

Thank you and Good Luck!!

I've banked with RBS since 1991. Since 2000 I've had 3 loans including my current one - basically I've refinance them. The 2 closed loans had PPI. I sent a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to RBS on 4th March. Since then there have been loads of letters going back and forth and they have provided lots of info - no of which I had asked for or was relevant. Their latest letter says that they cant provide info on the 2 closed loan accounts without the accounts numbers. All my loans have been linked to my current account which I've had for 17 years. I'm now am at a loss of knowing what to do. Should I complain to the Information Commissioner (which could take months) or make a couort claim for an estimated amount for a PPI refund.

 

One more point if the loans were all linked to your current account they should have records of this account. and going back at least 7 years if not more. (They had records on me back 11 years) From those records they should be able to see the payments made from your current account to the loan account and know how much was paid and when it was paid. From your current account records, the loan account details should be identifiable. In the absence of any paperwork I would take what they are telling you with a pinch of salt.

Keep at them

 

aa

Edited November 3, 2008 by alanalana
text added

[rocker1968]

thanks AA.

 

Can anyone else help with this??

[rocker1968]

I’ve just had an offer letter from RBS (as a gesture of goodwill) and it was nowhere near what I was expecting.

Here it is in a nutshell

I took out an unsecured Personal loan for £15k in April 2003.

The total of the loan + interest and the ppi + interest was £21246 over 4 years. Monthly repayments were £443.

The statement is as per this table.

Withdrawn Paid in Date Balance

21246.00 30.4.03 21246.00DR

443.00 30.5.03 20821.00DR

443.00 30.6.03 20378.00DR

443.00 30.7.03 19935.00DR

443.00 1.9.03 19492.00DR

443.00 3.9.03 19935.00DR

443.00 11.9.03 19492.00DR

443.00 30.9.03 19049.00DR

443.00 30.10.03 18606.00DR

443.00 3.11.03 19049.00DR

443.00 1.12.03 18606.00DR

443.00 3.12.03 19049.00DR

443.00 30.12.03 18606.00DR

443.00 2.1.04 19049.00DR

443.00 30.1.04 18606.00DR

443.00 1.3.04 18163.00DR

443.00 30.3.04 17720.00DR

443.00 30.4.04 17277.00DR

443.00 1.6.04 16834.00DR

443.00 3.6.04 17277.00DR

443.00 30.6.04 16834.00DR

443.00 2.7.04 17277.00DR

443.00 30.7.04 16834.00DR

443.00 31.8.04 16391.00DR

443.00 30.9.04 15948.00DR

443.00 1.11.04 15505.00DR

2317.04 loan rebate 23.11.04

13187.96 23.11.04 NIL

 

I haven’t got the original paperwork and nor (so they say) have RBS. But from the loan statement I have got I have the following information. I received a loan rebate of £2317.04 and the refinance cost £13187.96.

Anyway, looking at RBS’s current cost of PPI on a £15k loan over 4 years I reckon the ppi part of the loan including the interest was about £4k. I’m also pretty convinced that they didn’t offer pro-rata refunds in 2003/2004.

Their offer (as a gesture of goodwill!) reads as follows:

‘The bank is prepared to refund the insurance premiums and interest that you have paid to 23 November 2004. This excludes the amount automatically credited to your loan account of £983.93 when the policy was cancelled. Our calculations show that you have paid a total of £2011.28 for the payment protection element of your loan. To this we have added as requested the statutory interest the Financial Ombudsman Service would grant. This is a gross amount of £710.42 after deducting basic rate tax this is an amount of £568.34. This means our total offer is £2579.62’

I was expecting an amount closer to £5500 - £6000 including the statutory interest.

Can anyone help me with this as I’m a bit confused by all the figures and I definitely don’t want RBS to wriggle out of paying the amount that they should pay.

[alanalana]

Hello rocker,

 

I haven’t got the original paperwork and nor (so they say) have RBS. But from the loan statement I have got I have the following information. I received a loan rebate of £2317.04 and the refinance cost £13187.96. And hereby lies the problem you get a loan rebate without any breakdown to loan rebate or PPI rebate and the refinance is carried on to the next loan. If your PPI loan is a single premium with interest added is is highly unlikely that your rebate will include a pro rata rate as the Mis-selling of PPI states that rebates are small or non existant.

Chances are your refinance of £13187.96 actually would include a fairly large proportion of the PPI and the interest on it and the rebate would no doubt only be on the actual Loan figure.

Anyway, looking at RBS’s current cost of PPI on a £15k loan over 4 years I reckon the ppi part of the loan including the interest was about £4k. I’m also pretty convinced that they didn’t offer pro-rata refunds in 2003/2004.

 

Their offer (as a gesture of goodwill!) reads as follows: This is usual I had the same but went to the FOS My offer excluded 8% Statutory and the FOS managed to get that added. However I would suggest the FOS is the way to go with a complaint. The offer is a goodwill gesture without any admission of liability and lets them off the hook.

The FOS would look at your case and you may get an increase in your offer. You can then accept or go to the Ombudsman for a decision.

 

 

‘The bank is prepared to refund the insurance premiums and interest that you have paid to 23 November 2004. This excludes the amount automatically credited to your loan account of £983.93 when the policy was cancelled. (when did you cancel? and was there a breakdown of loan and PPI?) Not a lot of refund but the FOS would be better placed to make a decision. Our calculations show that you have paid a total of £2011.28 for the payment protection element of your loan. To this we have added as requested the statutory interest the Financial Ombudsman Service would grant. How would they know what the Ombudsman would grant? They are watching this PPI forum seeing the results already in and adjusting their responses to stop any more FOS fees at £450 per complaint. This is a gross amount of £710.42 after deducting basic rate tax this is an amount of £568.34. Coincidence they deducted the tax from my settlement as well. This means our total offer is £2579.62’

 

I was expecting an amount closer to £5500 - £6000 including the statutory interest.

 

Can anyone help me with this as I’m a bit confused by all the figures and I definitely don’t want RBS to wriggle out of paying the amount that they should pay. FOS with a complaint and it works fairly fast if they have made a goodwill gesture. If the offer is not increased and you opt for the Ombudsman it could add months on to the settlement date.

Only you can make the call.

I know for certain my outstanding claim will not be accepted if it is a goodwill gesture unless it is more than or very close to my original claim

 

Good luck with whichever way you go;)

 

aa

[rocker1968]

Thanks AA.

 

I'm going to ask RBS to provide the original details onthe loan. ie apr on loan, amount of ppi and apr on ppi and rebate figures. This in info that I have requested on numberous occasions in the past dating back to 4th March.

 

Does anyone know if RBS offered prorata refunds on ppi in 2003/2004 and also can they deduct base rate tax from the statutory interest part of the refund?

[Fred_Funk]

This is the first time I've seen any mention of anyone deducting base rate tax from the statutory interest part of the refund - either with regard to mis-sold PPI or bank charges.

 

Admittedly, I'm no expert but it smells distinctly fishy to me. Isn't the idea of the statutory interest a court or the FoS might award to return you to something like the position you might have been in if the bank hadn't deprived you of your money? How is that going to occur if they start making deductions for tax?

 

And, more to the point, if this is legitimate then why weren't the courts deducting base rate tax when they awarded s.69 interest?!

 

I suggest you PM a site helper and ask them to take a look at this thread. Then if, as seems likely, it transpires RBS are taking the proverbial, I wouldn't hesitate to contact every media organisation out there. In the current climate, I'm sure they'd be very interested in this kind of story.

 

Fred_Funk

[rocker1968]

This is the first time I've seen any mention of anyone deducting base rate tax from the statutory interest part of the refund - either with regard to mis-sold PPI or bank charges.

 

Admittedly, I'm no expert but it smells distinctly fishy to me. Isn't the idea of the statutory interest a court or the FoS might award to return you to something like the position you might have been in if the bank hadn't deprived you of your money? How is that going to occur if they start making deductions for tax?

 

And, more to the point, if this is legitimate then why weren't the courts deducting base rate tax when they awarded s.69 interest?!

 

I suggest you PM a site helper and ask them to take a look at this thread. Then if, as seems likely, it transpires RBS are taking the proverbial, I wouldn't hesitate to contact every media organisation out there. In the current climate, I'm sure they'd be very interested in this kind of story.

 

Fred_Funk

 

Thanks Fred,

 

How do I private message a site helper?