bristow and sutor urgent

[postggj]

need a quick reply please

 

my brother vacated a property in 1998 after getting married

he then moved into a different address out of the county

six months ago the previouse council contacted him saying a total of £600 was outstanding ref council tax. usual threats with the letter about baliffs if he did not make contact within seven days.

after talking to the council they said the single person rebate had been removed.

also a liability order was granted in 2002. he never received this.

he sent in a letter asking why this had happend, asking for full details ,statements etc.

he put the account into dispute waiting for there final response.

 

last week while at work the baliffs turned up and made a levy on his wifes vehicle while no one was at home.

 

this is now seriouse as the council has ignored his letter and let the dogs loose.

i know they cant levy against the vehicle as it is in his wifes name but you know as well as i do baliffs are a law unto themselves.

 

best action plan please to get this on hold

 

many thanks

[postggj]

bump

[anais35]

Threaten them with a Form 4 complaint (send them the draft you intend to send the court). Send a letter to the bailiff company (by fax, email and special delivery) telling them that the levy is unlawful (send registration docs to prove it) and therefore invalid. Send a copy to the council informing them that their representative has acted unlawfully and you will be taking action through the courts. Keep a copy of everything.

 

I did all this a few weeks ago; had all charges rescinded and the council is investigating both the bailiff company and the bailiff himself.

[postggj]

hi anais35

can you explain a form 4 complaint please

 

many thanks

[anais35]

A Form 4 complaint is a form you fill out when complaining to a court about the actions of one of their bailiffs (you have to send it to the court where they received their certificate). It can be downloaded here:

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

[tomtubby]

To make this application easy we have provided full details as a Sticky entitled:

 

How to complaint to the Court about a Certificated Bailiff. I am not that clever on a computer so can someone copy a link for me.

 

Thank you.

[anais35]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/115030-how-complain-court-about.html

[postggj]

many thanks tomtubby and anais35

[postggj]

just a coupple of more questions

 

sat down with my brother and sent the council a strong worded letter for which a copy has been sent to bristo and sutor by recorded delievery.

the letter to the council was copied and date stamped and returned to him.

he has requested a statement of account from 1998

a copy of the liability order for which he never received from 2002

why the single person discount was removed etc

i take it now the account is in official dispute no enforcement action can be taken untill a full and final response is received from the council,

please confirm this

also can a baliff do a liability order on the vehicle, even though its his wifes (illegal) on the first visit when no one was at home

 

last point

 

what would be his best action now if the baliffs turn up even though he has put the account into official dispute

 

many thanks

 

also what would be the chance that the council will now not have this info as it is ten years old

[tomtubby]

There is case law that provides that the bailiff can "presume" that goods are owned by the person named on the liability Order/Warrant. The onus of proof is on you....not the bailiff to prove ownership. He will then have to remove any charges applied.

 

I do have concerns on the time period of this Liability Order . The following is from a legal opinion that we have in our office that may well be helpful:

 

The Limitations Act 1980 imposes various time limits on different classes of

proceedings: six years for sums due under contract, six years for tortious claims, three years for personal injury cases and twelve years for recovery of land.

 

Whilst the six year rule applies to the right of a billing authority to obtain a liability order under reg.34(6) Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 SI 613, there is no express time limit for the collection and enforcement of local taxes once a liability order has been obtained.

 

Nevertheless, some justices (guided by their clerk to the court) considered the

overriding duty is to exercise discretion reasonably.

 

Some are concerned that with debts going back more than 6 years (even if the billing authority can demonstrate recovery throughout) could be considered an abuse of legal process.

[postggj]

my brother

[postggj]

my brother spoke to the council today on speaker phone

they did not want to release any details so i suggested an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

they did not like that very much but in the end the account was put on hold for seven days.

they said to put in writing the information required.

he has allready done that but this time it will be by a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

my question is if they do not produce this data in seven days can they then enforce the liability order. with an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) i know it can take up to 40 days.

 

next point

 

if it turns out he does owe money,

the council have said it has to be paid direct to the baliffs including fees,

the council will not accept payment.

is this correct

 

and what are the chances the council no longer have this data as it is over ten years

[postggj]

can any one give me a link for an sar template thats not for banks

this is to send to the local council

[postggj]

he has now sent off the sar to the council.

to recap the council refused to send the documents, ie, statement of account for 1998

copy of liability order

copies of all correspondents

 

now they have the sar, let see them refuse now

 

my question is the council have put a hold on the baliffs for seven days while they wait to receive the sar.

 

he has allready stated the account is in official dispute (proove the debt)

 

now they have received the sar and dispute letter, can they still instruct the baliffs after seven days, bearing in mind it can take 40 days to receive the resaults of the sar

 

most urgent and many thanks

[WWOW]

Here goes...

 

just a coupple of more questions

 

he has requested a statement of account from 1998

a copy of the liability order for which he never received from 2002

 

The Limitation Act 1980 applies to consumer debt and not council tax.

 

The liability order stands for 6 years, so when in 2002 was it issued? They might be against the clock before it becomes unenforceable in a magistrates court.

 

 

also can a baliff do a liability order on the vehicle, even though its his wifes (illegal) on the first visit when no one was at home

 

The general advice is his wife must serve the bailiff with an affidavit - a statement sworn before a Commissioner of Oaths (£5-10 fee applies). Make four copies, send one to the bailiffs by post, one to the local police, one for her own records and one to hand to the bailiff through a window if he turns up.

 

Never use recorded delivery when serving documents by post - it gives the bailiff an opportunity to decline receipt. PO Box addresses are fine.

 

 

 

 

DECLARATION OF OWNERSHIP

 

 

 

I [NAME] of [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE] make this statement knowing that it may be presented to a Court and believing the contents to be true.

 

1. I am the legal owner of motor vehicle [MAKE AND MODEL] index number [ABC 123] registered at the above-mentioned property I declare there is no entitlement enabling anyone to change ownership, possession, location, use and enjoyment of my vehicle or deprive me of it for the purposes of using it as collateral for a debt owed by another.

 

2. I further declare that any bailiff or person seeking a money transfer from somebody else including members of my household may not consider my vehicle and its contents to be prima facie to be the property of anyone else.

 

3. I believe that the facts given in this statement are true.

 

 

[NAME] _______________________

 

Date__________________________

 

Sworn before me:

 

______________________________

An officer of the Court.

 

 

Cover letter serving affidavit on the bailiff:

 

Name of Bailiffs

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

BY POST AND BY HAND

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME]: Notice of ownership of goods

 

Please find the enclosed affidavit for your information.

 

I understand you or your firm of bailiffs has seized, or is intending to seize my motor vehicle [REGISTRATION] or other property belonging to me at the above-mentioned address as collateral for an apparent debt belonging to somebody else.

 

Please be advised that any attempt to subvert this notice will automatically result in a Form 4 being filed at the bailiffs certificating court without contacting you further. Both you as a firm and your bailiff may be criminally liable for offences under Section 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 and any criminal aspect of this matter will be passed to the police.

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and served on you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 and it is now your responsibility and in your own interests this document is handed to the relevant person within your organisation. I regret I am unable to discuss this matter by telephone or in person.

 

Yours very truly

 

[YOUR NAME]

cc [NAME OF FORCE] Police

 

 

And send a copy to your local police authority.

 

Name of Police Authority

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Bailiffs and Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006

 

I enclose a copy of an affidavit I have sent to a firm of bailiffs known as [NAME OF BAILIFFS] of [ADDRESS OF BAILIFFS] by even post who threaten to obtain my vehicle [REGISTRATION] and other goods as a lien for somebody else's debt. I understand this commits a criminal offence under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

For the purpose of crime prevention, please assign a reference number to enable CAD to be aware of the circumstances should an emergency arise and properly investigate criminal activity.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

[YOUR NAME]

Enc: copy of affidavit.

 

 

 

If you need to file an official complaint against the bailiff, complete a Form 4 and attach a copy of the above affidavit and send to the bailiffs certificating court. Ask for your costs and affidavit fee.

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

 

last point

 

what would be his best action now if the baliffs turn up even though he has put the account into official dispute

 

 

many thanks

 

Never open the door to the bailiff, tell them its in the hands of the council.

 

 

also what would be the chance that the council will now not have this info as it is ten years old

 

Tell the council you never lived at that address at that time.

[postggj]

a bit more advice please

 

the sar has now gone into the council.

the council suspended the warrent for seven days which expires today.

they have been told the account is in dispute until the info is returned.

can they be underhand and instruct the baliffs while in dispute, and if they do what is the best plan of action.

is it possible to get the magistrates court to withdraw the liability order until the resaults of the sar

[WWOW]

a bit more advice please

 

the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) has now gone into the council.

the council suspended the warrent for seven days which expires today.

they have been told the account is in dispute until the info is returned.

can they be underhand and instruct the baliffs while in dispute, and if they do what is the best plan of action.

 

Tell the bailiff the matter is subject to appeal: Hand this letter to him if he turns up.

 

To: [NAME OF BAILIFF]

 

BY HAND

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Your visit to [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE]

 

[NAME OF] Council appears to have instructed you to recover unpaid council tax from me.

 

This letter gives you notice that you are not being given peaceful entry to my home or to levy goods contained within and I will not be signing anything for you. This notice revokes your eligibility to charge a Walking Possessions fee or other fee relating to the handling of goods.

 

The debt is now subject to an appeal and awaits an action from the council.

 

Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" for me to deny a bailiff entry to my property, the law says I have to settle the debt; it does not obligate me to do business with you. If you suggest to me otherwise I will automatically report you to the police and you may receive a criminal record.

 

Meanwhile please provide me with a written breakdown of your fees you have demanded and put it through the letterbox and quietly leave the property. If your fees are found to contradict Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 I will automatically file a Form 4 complaint against you at your certificating court for attempting to defraud me under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

This document was passed to you by hand, and a photograph using a mobile phone has just been taken showing you standing outside the above address reading it.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

 

is it possible to get the magistrates court to withdraw the liability order until the resaults of the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)

 

You can't ask to withdraw a LO on those terms, and even then its (usually) the Local Government Ombudsman that ends up doing it. Its only revoked if the debt in its entirety is revoked.

 

If a bailiff attempts to levy on a debt that is subject to appeal then Regulation 46(1) of the The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 allows you to appeal against a bailiffs actions to a magistrate.

[postggj]

just updating

sar went to the council a month ago

he has only yesterday received a response

get this, to release the sar they want driving licence, passport etc

its taken them a month for this, i smell a rat, me thinks they dont have, or will not release the info.

only eight days left to the forty days.

also are these documents copy writed by the crown, you can not do phocopies

 

next point

 

how do i find out if the baliff is certificated

i tried the number given on variouse threads but just get a voice mail box

[Fair-Parking]

There is nothing in the legislation that allows the council to only release information subject to production of driving licence/passport etc. My wife has neither but she is not excluded from her rights under the Freedom Of Information Act simply because of that.

 

The Data Protection Act is quite specific in that the data protection controllers must act promptly regarding obtaining identity if they feel they require more information. In this case your identity may well have been clarified by the name on your cheque/credit card and your whereabouts by any letter that you sent to the council.

 

Further data protection controllers are not only governed by the law, but in this case equally by the spirit of the Freedom of Information Act. It is not for them to stall, prevaricate or otherwise make nuisance of themselves. Whilst the council is bound to provide information requested within 40 days it should do so quickly. It is not allowed to make you wait 40 days for that information or to use up most of that time before making any further requests from you, let alone ones for driving licences/passports which clearly fall well outside of the spirit of this law which they are bound by.

 

Advance this argument to the council with the added notice that if they do not comply with your request you will apply for to the Information Commisioner for an Enforcement Notice. A custodial sentance can be applied to those who still refuse to comply.

 

The Freedom Of Information Act was designed to allow individuals access to councils and others and not for them to design yet more obtuse methods of becoming evasive and unaccountable.

[WWOW]

just updating

S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) went to the council a month ago

he has only yesterday received a response

get this, to release the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) they want driving licence, passport etc

its taken them a month for this, i smell a rat, me thinks they dont have, or will not release the info.

only eight days left to the forty days.

also are these documents copy writed by the crown, you can not do phocopies

 

Write to the bailiff and ask they fulfill their obligation under the Act, or pay you the sum of £5000 within 40 days of the date of your original subject access request letter. Tweak as required.

 

Name of firm of bailiffs

FAO the Data Controller

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME + ANY REF]: Data Access Request

 

Thank you for your latter of [DATE] and received by me today.

 

I understand you intend to vary the terms of your obligation to service a Subject Access Request pursuant to Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 by asking me to perform functions not stated in the Act.

 

As the Act does not provide for you to subvert the law in this way, I ask that you fulfill your statutory obligation under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 before the last of 40th day of the date of my original request being [DATE].

 

If you are unable or unwilling to fulfill your obligation I ask that you pay me the sum of £5000 in cleared funds on or before the aforementioned date.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, if you fail to furnish me with the requested information or pay me the sum of £5000 on or before the aforementioned date, I will automatically file at court a claim for £5000 for failure to comply with Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998.

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it good service on you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is now your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation. I regret I am unable to discuss this matter by telephone or in person.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

If you get no positive response from the bailiffs then sign up of Money Claim Online here at: https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco/login_pass_yes01.jsp In the particulars of claim - enter: (tweak as required)

 

On [DATE] I sent the defendant a Subject Access Request pursuant Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 enclosing a £10 cheque numbered [NUMBER] which was cashed on [DATE]. The defendant failed to comply with the Act within the prescribed time limit and I have tried to seek a reasonable resolve with the defendant who refuses to cooperate. I ask the defendant do pay me the sum of £5000 plus costs allowed by the court.

 

next point

 

how do i find out if the baliff is certificated

i tried the number given on variouse threads but just get a voice mail box

 

You can find the number at the top of this document: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

[tomtubby]

Our office are hearing this same complaint every day. It is for this reason that we have included the following page on our website:

 

 

"Levying" on a vehicle that you do not own:

 

This is now also becoming commonplace with "less reputable" bailiffs, in particular when collecting for unpaid council tax. Here is how it works :

 

The bailiff will make a visit to your premises with "a view to levying distress" (this is the legal term). He can charge just £24.50 if this is the 1st visit and you are not at home and no levy is made. In order to generate more income for him and his company,the bailiff will instead post a form through the door to say that he has attended and "levied" on a vehicle either on the driveway or on the road outside. The bailiff will then charge both an additional "walking possession" fee and a "levy fee".

 

The bailiff knows that there is case law that provides that he can "assume" that the car is yours and that it is up to you....not him..... to prove otherwise. Many times these vehicles are owned by sons/daughters/friends/even tradesmen etc. If this does occur, and the bailiff company refuse to accept that the car is not yours, then a Statutory Declaration be sworn by the owner of the vehicle and a request made that all fees and charges associated with this "levy" are removed.

............................................

[kermit2482]

Im glad you said less reputable bailiffs TT, but then i would expect nothing less from your good self

 

Personally i prefer to get the vehicle reg checked first and now we have the ability to do this almost instantly well our company do at least, this should put an end to levying cars that dont belong to the charge payer, however i still would not just put a levy through a door without meeting the charge payer, imo its not good practice!!

[postggj]

there has been a development today

a certain baliff has attended my brothers property again today. in a note left was the normal about removing goods etc.

the council has confirmed again today the account is on hold.

not to worried about that, my point being on a matter of procedure.

 

the baliff posted a letter through the door yesterday, brother not at home and for first visit charged £80, not £24.50

i know all about the charges but he has returned today, again while he was at work and posted another threatogram

 

can he do this two days in a row

 

many thanks

[postggj]

my next point is can he rack up the fees even no levy, walk in possession order has been made

[kermit2482]

A first visit fee should only be £24.50 end of and the bailiff should only return after 7 days has gone since his first visit, unless of course you have made contact!!!!