housing benefit and bank statement

[binkhus]

hi everyone

i just started work again after being on income support and i only work 16 hours a week so was told to claim some housing benefit and council tax benefit. i took in all my working tax credit awards forms and child tax credits forms and wage slips everything thyat proves what money im getting in. the lady said i still had to bring in a recent bank staement to prove i hadnt won the lottery or something. now i havent won the lottery or owt but still a bit peeved that everyone in benefit office will see not only what money iv got coming in but what iv spent money on too. they will see what iv spent on shopping what iv spent at chemist ect what if i was a keen ann summers fan or liked to buy sex films ( i would like to point out that they wont see anything like that). i would like to marker out all the money going out and just leave the incoming income and final ballance. i think its awful they are allowd to see what is really a very private thing. any comments?

[borisbeaver]

All information you pass to the council is treated in a confidential manner.

 

They just need to confirm that your pay advice corresponds to your bank account. This is used as a fraud check and also as part of an identity check.

 

You may find it very difficult getting your award with them seeing the statement.

[binkhus]

thanks for advise im taking it in tommorrow it was just a bit of a niggle really just didnt fancy them all knowing everything about what i spend my money on.

[borisbeaver]

Too be honest, they won't give a monkey what you spend your money on.

[binkhus]

iv handed everything in now but was looking at the european conventions on human rights and it rights to privacy. now dont get me wrong i know im prob just p****D off over nowt but i provided them with every detail of my income, wage slips, tax credits forms ect and they still wanted to see what i would consider to be a very private thing on the off chance i had won the lottery and still wanted to claim £45 a week housing benefit.

[Lefty]

Actually, I very much agree with you. I think that what happens in your finances (bank account) is a private as what happens in your bedroom.

Cheers

Lefty

[Invasive_Frost]

I know I am now late with this advice but you can always blank out the payee with a black marker pen if you don't want your local council to know where you have been spending your money, it is the amounts coming in that they will be concerned with.

[binkhus]

thanx frost thats what i thought about doing but couldnt be bothered with the hassle really. it just makes me angry that because im on a low wage and need some help they get to seee my bank statements.

[IdaInFife]

i felt the same although the claim is in my Oh name , he had to sign the docs', he does not have a bank account but they demanded to see my bank statments!!

 

I was well miffed.

 

Then they could see i was paying my council tax late each month

 

Idax

[redsonja]

Sorry couldnt resist to comment on this.

 

Whilst I agree you may see it as an invasion, you need to understand that a lot of fraudulent activity goes on when people are claiming benefits.

 

They ask to see your bank account statements to prove that all of the income you say you receive, you are receiving and you are not receiving anything you havent declared.

 

Benefit Officers wont give a hoot about what you spend your money on but there is quite a lot of information that can be checked on a bank statement to prove you are not committing fraud.

 

I wouldnt suggest blacking out your outgoings as there are certain fraudulent checks needed on outgoings too.

 

I for one, would prefer to provide information needed to help them combat the fraud that costs us taxpayers.

 

This post was just to try and explain why they ask for it and hopefully you now understand thats it's not due to intrusion.

[Lefty]

Sorry couldnt resist to comment on this.

Whilst I agree you may see it as an invasion, you need to understand that a lot of fraudulent activity goes on when people are claiming benefits.

They ask to see your bank account statements to prove that all of the income you say you receive, you are receiving and you are not receiving anything you havent declared.

Benefit Officers wont give a hoot about what you spend your money on but there is quite a lot of information that can be checked on a bank statement to prove you are not committing fraud.

I wouldnt suggest blacking out your outgoings as there are certain fraudulent checks needed on outgoings too.

I for one, would prefer to provide information needed to help them combat the fraud that costs us taxpayers.

This post was just to try and explain why they ask for it and hopefully you now understand thats it's not due to intrusion.

Innocent until proven guilty, eh? Unless, of course, you're a benefit claimant!

Oh, and by the way...

"...costs us taxpayers?" Benefit claimants are tax payers, too.

With respect

Lefty

[robin9342]

Sorry couldnt resist to comment on this.

 

Whilst I agree you may see it as an invasion, you need to understand that a lot of fraudulent activity goes on when people are claiming benefits.

 

They ask to see your bank account statements to prove that all of the income you say you receive, you are receiving and you are not receiving anything you havent declared.

 

Benefit Officers wont give a hoot about what you spend your money on but there is quite a lot of information that can be checked on a bank statement to prove you are not committing fraud.

 

I wouldnt suggest blacking out your outgoings as there are certain fraudulent checks needed on outgoings too.

 

I for one, would prefer to provide information needed to help them combat the fraud that costs us taxpayers.

 

This post was just to try and explain why they ask for it and hopefully you now understand thats it's not due to intrusion.

Sorry, have to disagree. The council have no need whatsoever to see exactly what you decide to spend your money on, even if the information is treated confidentially. All they need to see in deciding your claim is simply your current balance, plus the total money in/out of the account: That would be sufficient to see if there was any fraud going on.

 

My bank provides statements which contain a "summary" page which shows the opening and closing balance, total in plus total out. I gave the summary to my council and refused to give them my fully itemised statements. They accepted this and paid HB in full.

[redsonja]

Oh dear...didnt intend to start a debate on this, I just wanted to try and explain why they ask for it.

 

I meant "us" as in everyone other than fraudsters.

 

Also, they arent looking at what you spend your money on, they are looking for transactions that you havent declared.....unfortunately I cant say what as it would give to much information away.

 

Im very surprised the benefit department allowed you to just give summary pages. They are breaking a regulation by doing that. Usually they would refuse benefit if you dont supply the relevant information.

[robin9342]

Oh dear...didnt intend to start a debate on this, I just wanted to try and explain why they ask for it.

 

I meant "us" as in everyone other than fraudsters.

 

Also, they arent looking at what you spend your money on, they are looking for transactions that you havent declared.....unfortunately I cant say what as it would give to much information away.

 

Im very surprised the benefit department allowed you to just give summary pages. They are breaking a regulation by doing that. Usually they would refuse benefit if you dont supply the relevant information.

 

I am puzzled now. You say they aren't looking at what you spend your money on, but that they are looking for transactions you haven't declared. Surely, transactions are what you have spent your money on? (as well as credits, of course)

 

As you know, I could have up to £6000 in my account without any effect on HB or CTB. If I decide to spend, say £5000 on a holiday or a new car, then what business is that of the council?

 

Out of interest, please can you tell me what regulation applies to this?

[redsonja]

Robin

 

They arent looking at what you spend you money on. Transactions consist of debit, credits and transfers.

 

If you spent £5000 on a car or a holiday then that is no problem....especially when you are below the capital threshold anyway.

 

If you had say...15k in your account and within a week spent 9k then that would raise questions as some claimants purposely have a diminuation of capital just so they can claim full benefit.

 

Off the top of my head I cant remember the exact regulation (it's late lol) but it falls under the Verification Framework rules set up...it's something like section 19.....from my memory.

[robin9342]

Robin

 

They arent looking at what you spend you money on. Transactions consist of debit, credits and transfers.

 

If you spent £5000 on a car or a holiday then that is no problem....especially when you are below the capital threshold anyway.

 

If you had say...15k in your account and within a week spent 9k then that would raise questions as some claimants purposely have a diminuation of capital just so they can claim full benefit.

 

Off the top of my head I cant remember the exact regulation (it's late lol) but it falls under the Verification Framework rules set up...it's something like section 19.....from my memory.

 

Yes, I quite agree that this would raise questions. However, this kind of expenditure would show up in the account summary, without the council having to know how much I spent in Tesco last week! The claimant would then be asked to justify the figures.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fraud prevention, but I just see it as further snooping by an already oversurveilled big brother society.

 

As you have mentioned deprivation of capital and as I have previously been affected by this, I thought I would post the following which I found very interesting and may be useful to others.

 

If a claimant has in excess of £16000, there are various legitimate ways of "spending" it which shouldn't affect HB or CTB entitlement:

 

P1.703 A claimant should still be regarded as having deprived themself of a capital resource if they have disposed themself of it by way of a gift to a third party. However, they should not be regarded as depriving themself of it if they did it to

HB(SPC) Reg 47; CTB(SPC) Reg 37

• reduce or pay off a debt they owe
  
• purchase goods or services the Decision Maker considers reasonable, given their circumstances, eg
  • payments to reduce/pay off a debt, eg paying a credit card account or mortgage early
    
  • for day to day expenses
    
  • to improve their quality of life, eg buying a new kitchen or car
    
  • for medical treatment
    
  • for home repairs
    
  • for a holiday

[redsonja]

With deprivation of Capital...as long as you can prove what you have spent your money on and it is reasonable then there should be no problem.

 

If anyone is ever in this situation, I would advise to try and keep receipts where possible too.

[swt61]

Hi All,

 

My 72yr old mum is in this situation she cannort afford to pay her full rent & council tax anymore but they are using the deprivation of capital rule

 

It stinks:evil:

 

Simon

[Zamzara]

Hi All,

 

My 72yr old mum is in this situation she cannort afford to pay her full rent & council tax anymore but they are using the deprivation of capital rule

 

It stinks:evil:

 

Simon

 

What did she spend the money on? In theory for deprivation to apply the money must be spent with the intention of increasing benefit entitlement, but in practice any large unjustified expenditure may be deemed as such. If she disagrees with the decision she has a right of appeal independent from the council.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Zamzara

[swt61]

We receibved a letter fro the council today stating that she is not entitled to any benefits.

 

I called them to discuss it and they stated that the money she did have going back in 2006 which totaled just over £16.000 plus the £2500 Funeral Bond has now been disregarded but they are still stating that the £25,000 that she gave to me & my family falls under the notional capital rule.

 

They have reduced this fugure now to saying that she has £20,253.70 but as I stated to them she is in there accomodation & is using her overdraft every month to pay her rent & council tax.

 

I now have to go down the road of appeal

 

Any suggestions please,

 

Thanks,

 

Simon

[pencil]

Too be honest, they won't give a monkey what you spend your money on.

 

People who work there who know you might. Saying nobody will give a monkeys isn't true is it.

Edited January 10, 2009 by pencil

[grandomum5]

People who work there who know you might. Saying nobody will give a monkeys isn't true is it.

 

Hi, I would like to quote on the fact that the council want to see my bank statements, the fact that they have seen my wage slips should be enough, how would they like it if I asked to see their bank statement, I think this is an invasion of privacy. Wouldn't be claiming housing benefit if I had ex amount of pounds in the bank, not worth the hassle. There should be some sort of law against this.

[Ford Prefect]

There is no guarantee that these details will be kept confidential at all.

There are two main problems here.

One is someone duping them into giving information to someone in the belief that they are dealing with someone entitled to know. You don't know what is being stored and kept that someone could ring up and con out of someone.

 

You are given good evidence that they are vulnerable to this tactic just because of the reasons given for asking for it. Councils will talk about "Proof" in my experience when they actually mean "Evidence".

Not having a good sense of reasoning like this makes them vulnerable to being conned.

 

Identity checks are worthless against skilled fraudsters. It is important to remember that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PROOF OF IDENTITY.

Evidence exists of course but not proof. If you have a passport can we be assured that the people in the passport office have known you since a child? Of course not. Identity cards will suffer from the same problem.

My local council will idiotically accept utility bills as what they call "Proof of identity". You have to worry seriously about the cognitive abilities of these people.

 

The most obvious reason why bank account details would be useless is that the claimant had accounts they did not declare that were dealt with on a cash only basis and that had no connection to the account in question.

Any fraudster would easily work this out so in effect they are asking for

information of little value.

 

This is all theoretical but the real threat is from dishonest staff. I can guarantee you that there are cases where staff in organisations have used these kinds of things to commit fraud. I know of a case myself, which was not a council but a central government body, but the principle is the same.

 

There is nothing to prevent a dishonest staff member memorising all your details later writing them down and storing them for all sorts of fraudulent purposes later on when you are off benefits.

 

I am given to understand, and I would welcome proper evidence on this matter, which I am checking out myself anyway, that the law no longer requires you to hand over this information. Maybe someone up there actually has a few brain cells to rub together or more likely they have

caught to many people using it for fraud and finally realised it isn't a good idea.

 

Edit: Oh and I like that bedroom point made earlier. It is spot on.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Ford Prefect
extra line

[cbbc]

Hi,

I felt the same when I applied,

They told me that I had to provide my adult childrens pay slips.

I had to explain to my kids all of my private business too.

I dont make a profit from my kids they just pay their way.

Do I have to notify them if my child changes their job?

I only do paper free banking so I just printed out the a mini statement to show them.

I have more money in my account at the end of the month and nothing by the 1st as thats when all my bills come out.

I had to have a home visit from the council tax lady. She told me that they were having to visit every body who was claiming and that it was government legislation.

Its going to take them years. Has any one else had a home visit or is it infact just me?

I suppose if people are doing anything dodgy then a home visit would make you very nervous.

I had wondered if they were picking on me because I have made complaints about the DWP.

[ingrid56a]

I too have a feeling I am being singled out because I have made a complaint and went all the way to the top man in London. In a previous claim they lied to my local MP, local leaders of other political parties and to the head man himself. They finally had to admit this to the head of HMRC because they didn't have the information they would have needed to write to me!

 

To claim working tax and child tax credit I have been asked to submit originals of the following:-

Mortgage statement

Electricity bills

Gas bills

Telephone bills

Rates demand

Water rates bill

Pay slips

Contract of work hours

Evidence of son's education (he is receipt of EMA therefore must be in full-time education)

 

They claim this is because there exists a bank account linked to my address. This is true and it has been for many years. It is obvious from all my paperwork that they have received that there is no connection between me and this account or my account and anybody else. It is an old friend who used my address because I was the only constant in his life.

 

They accused me of lying about my 17 year-old, son's education because between my application and this week he has not achieved the grades he really needed. He was offered the chance to go back a year but opted instead to do a full time A-level course at a local college. I encouraged this because I don't have the funds to buy him his school uniform or pay for his transport to and from the school, when it moves out of town in November. I have not received child benefit for my son since March of this year.

 

I work18.5 hours a week, in a local gym, cleaning drains, showers, toilets, air conditioning ducts, swimming pool and racking up 25kg weights. I can't imagine anyone doing this, except out of necessity

 

The compliance officer told my daughter that because this friend was of a similar age we might be living together! We are friends...we do not live together....we have been on holiday together...we do not have a sexual relationship. I always thought in the UK it is innocent until proven guilty!!! If I am angry about their intrusion into my life can you imagine how I feel when they question me about my friend and his personal life.

 

Meantime, in May I received £361 to last me for 5 weeks (because June was a 5 week month. In June I received £601 because I worked a 5 week month. In July I received £420 (my working hours were increased from 16hrs to 18.5hrs) which has to do me for 5 weeks because again I have to work a 5 week month!!

 

I am sick with worry about how I am going to cope now that my meagre savings (for my son's driving lessons) have run out!!

I have broken my tooth and cannot go near the dentist because I have no money and cannot prove receipt of benefits.