Inside a DCA!

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Tremendously informative - thank you again.

 

I am pleased about this bit:

 

13) Pass back to client (end) - because of 'reason' (i.e. Doctors note/death)

 

 

Sadly, I have read far to many death certificates due to unnatural causes regarding debt to last me a lifetime. Debt can be depressing, but not enough to take you own life.

 

If you reading this, have no one to turn to, no one to talk to, and feel there's only one way out. Then PM me, there is ALWAYS a solution to even the worse financial situations.

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Yes they may well go for a CCJ , but should a court award judgement when FIRSTLY . A copy of a correct CCA has not been produced . SECONDLY . Account statements are missing .

 

Or is it down to the JUDGE on the day ?????

 

It will be based on the evidence presented, not which side of the bed the judge got out of. Thankfully.

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The reason i said this is a certain creditor that i am battling with has refused to send me the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) i requested months ago as they know that i have a rather good argument against them regarding payments charges etc.

 

This account is still with the OC and they have now stopped sending me letters and statements so they think i would not chase them for the SAR.

 

I have paid the acc many times over and they have added charges etc when they never asked me to sign a CCA, the acc was set up over the phone and i was given instant credit by them no questions asked.

 

Maybe you should 'offer' the solution that they write the debt off on your CRA file, or demand 'your day in court'.

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It was the compensation claim for £4,000 that made them take notice ...

 

Recently though, i am having problems with the FOS wanting the OC to pay my charges refund to the DCA, even though the accounts were closed as i stated in my previous post.

 

The FOS say closed/written off accounts can still have money credited to them. In this case, back to my £4,000 claim. I have it in writing that 'we will close/write off the accounts in compensation of your claim, signed Legal Director'. Where does that leave me now?

 

Ok, it makes sense now.

 

It really comes down to what you really want. Yes we all want to get as much out of them as possible, but is it realistic. It is also about the amount of the write off! I mean if you claim was 4k and your outstanding debt 2k you should press on, but if you debt was, say, 9k+, then they will argue to the FoS that their action was 'fair and reasonable'.

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2 things

 

1st

Brink you stated that the DCA has to pass a CCA request back to the OC. Whilst this may be correct the DCA if the request is addressed to them has a duty not just to pass the request on but to comply with that request themselves as per the regs.

I agree, but don't get caught in the trap I have seen from debtors of getting entrenched in their legal position. Demanding that the DCA 'meet their regulatory requirement' may be lawfully correct but may not be realistic. The fact is that nearly all DCAs do not have access to the CCA, or any other paperwork for that matter, and will refer it to the OC. Whether the OC passes what they have to the DCA for forwarding to the debtor or does it themselves is, in the view of the DCA, not important. What is important is that the information IS provided.

Real Example: I have had debtors demand the DCA provide the CCA information they have requested and have a regulatory requirement to provide. My attitude was, 'if you want to play semantics I can do that, but it won't help your case', I informed the OC and passed on the chq/PO. I would then respond with a letter that the DCA does not have that information to provide. The debtor proceeded in the false belief a valid CCA was not available to provide only for the OC to produce the prescribed terms during the court hearing.

As a debtor your only concern in requesting a CCA is to get what paperwork they have, and the best way of doing that is to contact the OC directly. If you do contact the DCA you should request the information and not 'demand' a response from them.

Passing it on to OC does not free the DCA from complying with the law. In other words if the DCA does not have the a true copy of the properly executed agreement they have no lawful right to pursue the debt.

And that is why you should ensure the account is put on hold until the information is provided. But please note, they may provide the paperwork and in their view it is correct, they will then proceed with the enforcement action. If you are the debtor, and are confident they have no valid CCA, you can sit back and await the CCJ and then defend knowing YOU have the ace up you sleeve.

 

It's this situation which is causing many DCA's & OC's a lot of trouble. The fact that they pass on their accounts on disc & not in the form of hard copy is what is causing them the problem.

 

The CCA was enacted in 1974 therefore there is absolutely no provision in law for them to be able to pursue debts based purely on what's on a computer disc - & as debt collection as we know it was in it's infancy DCA's didn't even enter the equation

And it will only get worse as companies move to the 'paperless office'.

 

2nd

The courts have for too many years just rubber stamped undefended creditor claims without ensuring, as they should, that the claimant is entitled to make the claim & has the evidence to support it such as CCA's etc:

 

Now that there is a revolt the courts are on a learning curve but are still not scrutinising claims as they should .

 

A couple of months ago a 1 line claim was submitted by a creditor without any supporting documents & they where granted a CCJ on what was later found to be a time barred debt

 

Needless to say it was appealed, set aside & struck out as being out of time This only happened because it was asked of the court to examine the circumstances of the granting of the CCJ

 

When it comes to CCJs the onus has always been on the debtor defending rather than the creditor proving. All undefended CCJ don't even pass under the eyes of a district judge, they are determined by a court clerk. And this can, and has caused a problem where the debtor didn't even know the CCJ was issued (issued 'in absence'). And in fact, when you return the 'admission form' it goes back to the OC or their agent and not the court. It's only if the CCJ is defended that both side have to then 'prove' their position.

[onthebrink]

[/i]

 

No, i think that is wrong. I have been to enough hearings to know that it all depends on how the judge is feeling, no matter what the evidence in front of them. Remember that they are a person and people have opinions and thoughts they can be as moody as anybody else.

 

It was said with a slight sarcastic taint...

 

ALL jobs are dictated by how were feeling on the day, and judges are no different

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Thanks onthebrink so informative - Can I take this a stage further once a ccj has been enforced and a payment plan put into action via the court at anytime can the claimant put a charge on their property and if so would it be possible to challeage the cca if it wasn't disputed the first time around.

 

If you enter an agreement to pay monthly via a ccj a charging order can only be granted if you default on that agreement at the request of the creditor.

If the court orders you to pay the ccj in a lump sum (not monthly payments) and you cannot do that, the creditor can request a 'legal charge' on your home.

 

Regarding the cca. If the CCJ was issued 'in adsence' you can go back to court and request a redetermination. But if you completed the 'admissions form' and returned this to the court you have admitted the debt and you cannot then 'defend' or dispute the debt retrospectively.

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100 posts.....yeaaaa...I feel better than David Beckham :grin:

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You could request the Judgment be set aside as you have a realistic prospect of defending the claim successfully.

 

You should apply to do so "promptly", however. (CPR Part 13)

 

 

There is provision to allow the judgement to be set aside under 13.3 depending on when judgement was granted, but it is my experience that the courts are unlikely to set aside a debt on the grounds of no valid CCA with the prescribed terms put forward retrospectively.

 

The hearing by the district judge is likely to ask the pertinent question 'why did you admit to the debt during the orginal judgement and agree a monthly repayment, on that debt you now dispute on the grounds on validity?', I would doubt the judge would set it aside on the response 'I didn't know the law then'. In my experience with the courts, 'ignorance is not defence'. But it is certainly worth a go.

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YES this is the "best thread to date" please can you elaborate on the words in point 13) doctors note

 

thanks

 

The doctor would have to support your claim that your financial circumstances were unlikely to improve in the short or long term due to ill health, and thus it would be 'reasonable' and 'realistic' for the OC to write off the debt.

 

In the more extreme case it may be a letter from your doctor confirming you were sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

 

It would need to be 'serious' medical condition with little prospect of an improvement to your financial position for this to be successfull.

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Thank you for the informative thread OTB . I have a few questions regarding how DCA's work .

 

(1) When they send those letters with half of the contents visible through the large window of the envelope , is this just a 'mistake' or a deliberate ploy at trying to 'embarass' the alleged debtor into paying with information such as 'your account in arrears' to be seen by a sizeable portion of british postal workers and whoever might live in your premisis ?

No. Most DCAs use a computerised system of delivery which automates the procedure. I mean, would you lick 1000 envelopes a day. And to be honest, I doubt the postie notices with the amount of mail they have to deliver.

 

(2) These autodialler computers they use . I have had a lot of success with just putting the number these autodiallers call from on the choose to refuse list . Is this a major inconvenience for them ? ie, not impossible to circumvent .. use another telephone to dial from, but then you would have the trouble of having somebody physically dial the numbers up and the call is not on the 'system' as such. Not then part of the integrated call/monitor/recording / archiving system they'd want all your calls to be contained within.

The system can identify the following: busy engaged, dead number, call barred, fax, data communication (modem) and can update the file accordingly. The system can also automatically register a 'fault' on the line with BT if it keeps getting an 'engaged' tone. As a last resort your file can be passed to a team leader for a manual call. It should also be noted that only large DCAs have automated call centres, the small DCAs remain on a manual dial up system.

 

(3) Do DCA's deliberately employ unknowledgeable people in positions ( such as complaints/ compliance etc) where they can be used to declare in their ignorance, a statute barred debt is not statute barred ,for example, when it is possible such ill-knowledge leads to the befuddling and confusing and negating of genuine and legitimate claims from alleged debtors concerning such debts ?

Not intentionally no. there is a high turnover rate at DCAs, as you can imagine. So sometimes it can be just a case of getting 'a body' on the phone that can read a script.

 

(4) Have you ever been aware of any kind of nefarious activities that have been alleged to have taken place in some dca's. Such as (dca) making a payment to an account to break an otherwise 6 year statute barred period or use of photoshopped signatures ?

Not in any DCA I worked in, nor would I accept such behaviour. But that is not to say it don't happen. The smaller the outfit the more likely the procedures and controls will be poor, likewise, you do tend to find in-house DCAs make up the rules as they go along.

 

Many Thanks )

 

Hope this helps

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Fascinating stuff OTB, and a question if I may. I your experience, on what grounds would an OC ask a DCA to return an account to them?

 

Many reasons really, here's just a few:

 

Dispute on the account

Amount owed incorrect

counter claim issued

debtor death

default incorrectly issued

Payment received via another DCA

etc.

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If you directly make an OC aware that a debt is unenforceable, IMO they must recall it and cannot ever sell it again. Any thoughts OTB?

 

I did say in my first post that I would always answer question as the DCA would act, and not based on my opinion or on the morality or ethics of the question.

 

Taking that into account:

 

I would say the only definitive way of proving a debt is unenforceable, and thus further action justified, is in county court. Until that point both the debtor and the OC/DCA may have different views on the debts validity. It's only the district judges opinion that matters really.

 

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Good morning OTB and a Happy Easter to you.

Scenario = CCA default, CCA offence committed, a/c passed from original CC to DCA AND then case reported to Trading Standards.

What would the DCA action be to this - would they defend or drop like a hot potato ?

Thank you,

R

 

In my experience TS are a blunt knife when it comes to complaints and more often than not take very little interest in individual compliants. Even when they did the DCA response was a generic 'the debtor has not exhausted our complaints procedure' (you would then get a letter from TS asking to make a complaint to the DCA and your back to square one). If you had exhausted the DCA complaints process TS would be notified that the complaint could not be resolved but enforcement action would continue. Rarely do TS get heavy without a lot of simular complaints.

 

Normally the DCA would then pass then account on to a new DCA either by a mutual assignment agreement or total sale at a reduced rate.

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Morning & Happy Easter !!

 

Unfortunately, TS do not pick this one up in the way that we would like and, although they may encourage you to make a formal complaint, those details are only taken into account if TS get enough complaints from other people as well. They're not interested in individual cases.... so DCAs have no reason to be scared of anything. In my experience, they just sell the account on

 

With no CCA though, this is nothing more than a pain in the ass... since there is nothing a new lot can do with it either.

 

LOL.

 

I should read later post before posting a response could save me all that typing.

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Yes... FOS do expect the Complaints Procedure to be exhausted before they'll get involved. That doesn't stop the FOS contacting the DCA to get "a wriggle on" though, if it drags on too long.... I have one going through at the moment. In my case, FOS contacted the DCA ages ago, giving them a fair chance to put things right (as if). Needless to say, they didn't/couldn't/haven't... which is why I've written to FOS again (with a ref. number this time).

 

I'm assuming this is the point when the charge could come into it.... when the DCA will be given an opportunity to give me what I'm after (wise), or face a full investigation (unwise).

 

Meanwhile, I wait with baited breath.... :grin:

 

All DCAs have their own complanits procedure which normally is started upon receipt of a formal compliant in writing. The complaint is normally dealt with by a supervisor and can range from abuse to a debtor to failure to provide information. The process is taken seriously but wil not prevent enforcement action continuing, so you could still be getting calls/letters while the complaint is investigated. DCAs do not normally have a time limit on responding to a formal complaint but it should take no longer than 28 days, and that's normally the complex cases. To be honest, ehether they take it seriously really comes down to the complaint. If you saying a debt collector 'threatened me with...?' then it is unlikely to be a positive outcome for the debtor.

The whole point creditors use DCAs is because they are prepared to say things a high street bank just couldn't say (because of customer/media relations, I mean, they are unlikely to be seen as 'the singing bank' if they are threatening their customers with bailiff action!). You would be surprised how much DCAs recovery for their clients by using such tactics, back on topic though.

 

A complaint to the FoS normally starts with a basic request to the DCA for a response to the complaint...' Mr X has complained about Y event, what have/are you doing to resolve this'. Communication between the DCA and the FoS is normally done in a non-confrontational way (the old 'lets work together to resolve this'), and more to confirm the DCA has acted 'reasonable'. I have never read a FoS complaints enquiry letter that has ever quoted the law, or regulation. Their letters, for example, don't have comments like, 'under s77/78 you are required to....you have failed to conform to s77/78, etc.

When it comes to the charges imposed on DCAs, in my experience this normally only occurs if the FoS have to send an investigator to the DCAs office with the power to read, recover and remove data or information relating to the complaint. The DCA is normally given advanced notice of any such visit.

And you do have to have exhausted the DCAs complaints process before the FoS will get involved (just like TS), but to be honest the FoS will in the first instance be looking to see if the DCAs response was 'reasonable'.

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OTB.

 

just a question 4 u but will give u a bit of back round first.

 

Have a acc with littlewoods and they passed it to In house who were told were to go due to the letter being recieved by my after i had CCAd littlewoods.

 

Now i have not had any demand letters other than statements from littlewoods or the in house DCAs since october of last year.

 

NDR have not contacted me since i told them were to go. littlewoods last corresponded with me in Dec with there statement which i recieved in january.

 

what is the possibility that the acc has been passed to a non in house DCA and if so how long would it usually take for a DCA to contact me?

 

If it had they would have contacted you by now. You should have a look and see if you account is in default. I would suspect it is, and the in-house DCA have put enforcement on 'suspend' or 'hold', and the account is just generating statements. At some point the account will automatically be passed for determination, and it is at that point it will be passed to an external DCA. When that will happen, not sure, but no less than 90 days from the date of you last contracted payment.

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OTB thanks for that.

 

So from what your saying the last contract payment then 90 days later, at least, they pass you to a DCA.

 

Well my last contract payment NOT including the CCA request money was the begining of September and the letter from NDR was dated exactly 2 weeks and 6 days later.

 

The CCA request was sent the begining of October and cashed the 8th October. So this is defently out side of the standard 90 days as it is nearly 7 months since last payment and 6 mths since CCA payment.

 

Chrissi

 

So it would appear they have decided not to 'enforce' the debt as they don't have a valid CCA.

 

I would just have the standard letter ('when the OC provides a valid CCA I'll respond to your demand') on hand if they do pass it to a DCA.

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Going off track - When a defaulted account is in the hands of a dca does the collected money get passed back to the original creditor?

 

Yes, less a % fee, but all monies you pay reduce the balance outstanding on the account. The % fee taken by the DCA is the cost to the OC for their 'service'.

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Good evening all.

 

I am really busy at the moment with year ends and not had much time to read the thread this week.

 

Sorry. 8)

 

I'll have a quick read now and add any useful comments as required.

 

:) Thanks for all the reputation comments, much appreciated :)

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So the amount a DCA would earn from an account depend on how much is outstanding?

Sort of. It depends on 3 things.

1) If the debt is 'owned' by the DCA or OC.

2) If the DCA pay a % fee to the OC they should not be charging YOU as well, if you think this is the case contact the OC and point out that the debt is unlikely to ever be repaid while the DCA is banging on charges.

3)If the DCA is 'in-house' or an external agent.

 

Also why do some DCA's add a collection charge on top, are they legally allowed to do this?

Yes it is legal but not really 'reasonable', particularly when the balance keeps increasing.

My advice to anyone paying monthly payments but the debt is still increasing is to demand a CCJ. The OC/DCA will stop adding charges and you can actually reduce the debt. But DON'T default on the CCJ payments.

 

 

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HI again , What was the DCA response to a debtor saying they were filling for bankrupcy ?

 

They will bring forward the 'final determination' stage and assess what action should occur in order to bring about a quick recovery. The OC will be notified and normally enforcement action is increased. I can do a chapter on bankruptcy if anyone is interested, but it is a 'last resort' for both creditor and Debtor.

 

Creditors (except HMRC, which is known as a 'preferential' creditor) will rarely file a petition for bankruptcy unless they have identified major assets, and even then it is normally the largest unsecured creditor because they will be the first in the Q after secured and preferential creditors.

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A S.A.R. asks the creditor for all information they hold on you. It has no implications as to whether you are paying the debt or not. It may be used if you want to reclaim any charges.

 

A consumer credit agreement request asks for a copy of the credit agreement, and does not imply that you are refusing to pay the agreement. There are any number of reasons why you might want this info.

 

You can offer creditors anything, they don't have to accept it. I would start by asking them how much they would settle for. Then bargaining like hades, it does help if you are willing to do the agreement over several weeks or months. Offer them a very nominal payment. Ask them what F&FS they would offer. Sort of sigh, and say you're sorry you can't afford that etc. Bargain like hades, and make every pound count. Watch don't get done get dom for ideas;)

 

The golden rules are it must be a full and final settlement , and it must be in writing.

 

I agree with all of that but would add that the OC/DCA will only really consider 'low' F&F settlements when they have exhausted all other options or they know the debt is unenforceable.

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I'll be in and out all week but will return next weekend with either:

 

- Rouge Debtors 8-)

 

- Strategies DCAs hate.

 

YOU decide.

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Thanks Goldlady.

 

I thought I would just correct a statement I made in one of my earlier post, not because it was incorrect, but because it failed to give a 'full picture'

 

When a debt is sold by the OC to a DCA, the OC have a duty to inform the CRAs of this fact. If you check your CRA file it should have one of two narratives added:

 

1) 'Debt assigned'

this is where the debt is sold to a DCA or agent that is not a member of CAIS.

2) 'Debt sold to CAIS member'

Where the debt is sold to a DCA within the information sharing scheme.

 

If you find the OC have not added this narrative, you should request they do so, if you want. But it will also allows you to find out if the OC has actually sold the debt on.