Inside a DCA!

[onthebrink]

A S.A.R. asks the creditor for all information they hold on you. It has no implications as to whether you are paying the debt or not. It may be used if you want to reclaim any charges.

 

A consumer credit agreement request asks for a copy of the credit agreement, and does not imply that you are refusing to pay the agreement. There are any number of reasons why you might want this info.

 

You can offer creditors anything, they don't have to accept it. I would start by asking them how much they would settle for. Then bargaining like hades, it does help if you are willing to do the agreement over several weeks or months. Offer them a very nominal payment. Ask them what F&FS they would offer. Sort of sigh, and say you're sorry you can't afford that etc. Bargain like hades, and make every pound count. Watch don't get done get dom for ideas;)

 

The golden rules are it must be a full and final settlement , and it must be in writing.

 

I agree with all of that but would add that the OC/DCA will only really consider 'low' F&F settlements when they have exhausted all other options or they know the debt is unenforceable.

[onthebrink]

I'll be in and out all week but will return next weekend with either:

 

- Rouge Debtors 8-)

 

- Strategies DCAs hate.

 

YOU decide.

[Goldlady]

I think the strategies DCAs hate has to be first on the list.

 

And thanks again for taking the time.....

[rory32]

Yes it is legal

Really? Debt collection charges can only be added if it is a specific part of the agreement between the contracting parties e.g. the creditor and the debtor at the outset. The courts take a very dim view of debt collection agencies adding their charges to the account in the absence of such a specific provision in the agreement as there is no legal basis for them adding charges.

 

If a DCA claims the right to recover charges under a seperate agreement with the debtor, there must be a binding contract to this effect, with legal consideration (i.e. benefit) provided to the debtor.

 

A letter advising the debtor of a liability for certain charges is not such an agreement, regardless of whether it is signed by the debtor.

[onthebrink]

Thanks Goldlady.

 

I thought I would just correct a statement I made in one of my earlier post, not because it was incorrect, but because it failed to give a 'full picture'

 

When a debt is sold by the OC to a DCA, the OC have a duty to inform the CRAs of this fact. If you check your CRA file it should have one of two narratives added:

 

1) 'Debt assigned'

this is where the debt is sold to a DCA or agent that is not a member of CAIS.

2) 'Debt sold to CAIS member'

Where the debt is sold to a DCA within the information sharing scheme.

 

If you find the OC have not added this narrative, you should request they do so, if you want. But it will also allows you to find out if the OC has actually sold the debt on.

[blue4ever]

strategies dca please otb CHEERS

[stargazeratdawn]

Just a quick thanks to Tomterm8 and Onthebrink for your earlier answers to my questions.

[ScarletPimpernel]

 

When a debt is sold by the OC to a DCA, the OC have a duty to inform the CRAs of this fact. If you check your CRA file it should have one of two narratives added:

 

What sort of duty is this? It's not a statutory duty, because CRAs are just private companies.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Also why do some DCA's add a collection charge on top, are they legally allowed to do this?

Yes it is legal but not really 'reasonable', particularly when the balance keeps increasing.

 

Rory has alluded above to the need for their to be a contractual requirement for charges to be added. Additionally, the OFT Guidance requires:

 

- that there is contractual provision for collection charges to be added

 

- that an indication of the actual amount of the charges must be contained in the contract

 

- that the charges must be based on actual and necessary costs

 

- that the charges must not be disproportionate to the main debt

 

So, whilst in some cases it may be legal for a DCA to add charges, as consumer credit licence holders they are obliged to comply with the OFT Guidance.

[NitrousOxide]

Rory has alluded above to the need for their to be a contractual requirement for charges to be added. Additionally, the OFT Guidance requires:

 

- that there is contractual provision for collection charges to be added

 

- that an indication of the actual amount of the charges must be contained in the contract

 

- that the charges must be based on actual and necessary costs

 

- that the charges must not be disproportionate to the main debt

 

So, whilst in some cases it may be legal for a DCA to add charges, as consumer credit licence holders they are obliged to comply with the OFT Guidance.

I agree, it must be a contractual provision. This also applies to interest as well I believe.

[Jaws75]

T I can do a chapter on bankruptcy if anyone is interested, but it is a 'last resort' for both creditor and Debtor.

 

Hi OTB & thank you for all the wonderful info! Just finished reading!! Phew.:grin:

Anyway, I've already come to terms that i'm Bankrupt! Reason being that i think this?..Cos i haven't made contact with anybody for 18 months..still counting..very silly of me perhaps , but i thought it was a wiser choice than

1. 'killing myself to live'

2. chucking myself under a train...

believe it or not these are 2 very different ideas but they both suck..though they sound similar.

 

Naturally my debts have snowballed via charges etc. Of course i will begin to recover some and make my way to recovery asap unless i'm bankrupt!. But without a bank account or proper address (homeless), how i'm i to start this slog? O.k enough said, too many issues.

 

Back to the thread quote, I'm interested bankruptcy topic when you have the time! I've been living like one for more than a year so i can't see what difference it's gonna make to my lifestyle. I don't have any assets, don't need a mortgage. Let's face it, who would want to get credit again when it's the very thing that gets you into trouble??????

Isn't CREDIT doublespeak for DEBT? Now remember that ppl, when you are watching those Orwellian Debt adverts that promise to help you when they offer CREDIT, Remember they're offering to get you more into DEBT!!....I find this a disturbing tactic! But hey! it works! ....

 

Thank you for reading my late night rant.:grin:

 

Jaws

 

 

[onthebrink]

What sort of duty is this? It's not a statutory duty, because CRAs are just private companies.

 

Any Creditor or DCA that have agreed to the terms of CAIS by signing up to the information sharing scheme have a duty to provide the CRA with any information that '...would be of benefit to other CAIS members in determining credit facilities'.

[onthebrink]

Rory has alluded above to the need for their to be a contractual requirement for charges to be added. Additionally, the OFT Guidance requires:

 

- that there is contractual provision for collection charges to be added

 

- that an indication of the actual amount of the charges must be contained in the contract

 

- that the charges must be based on actual and necessary costs

 

- that the charges must not be disproportionate to the main debt

 

So, whilst in some cases it may be legal for a DCA to add charges, as consumer credit licence holders they are obliged to comply with the OFT Guidance.

 

I agree. Within the contract between the DCA and the OC there will be provision for the DCA to add 'reasonable' charges (notice how that word keeps appearing), however, any such provision should be contained within either the original agreement that the debtor signed OR within the T&Cs that were provided at the time credit was obtained. I cannot remember the exact wording but it is normally in the same paragraph where they set out how they will share your information with 'other agencies'. If there is no such provision regarding 'additional charges' then there is no basis to allow the DCA to add charges.

 

Just to be clear, a DCA CANNOT add charges if the OC cannot prove YOU the debtor agreed to be bound by such 'terms & conditions'.

 

HINT:

If a DCA is adding charges or fees to your account, write a letter to the OC requesting information regarding the assignment of such a 'right' and request written proof that you agreed to be bound by such terms.

 

If the DCA has purchased the debt from the OC, send the letter to the DCA direct requesting on what legislative grounds they believe they can add charges or fees to the account.

[onthebrink]

Hi OTB & thank you for all the wonderful info! Just finished reading!! Phew.

Anyway, I've already come to terms that i'm Bankrupt! Reason being that i think this?..Cos i haven't made contact with anybody for 18 months..still counting..very silly of me perhaps , but i thought it was a wiser choice than

1. 'killing myself to live'

2. chucking myself under a train...

believe it or not these are 2 very different ideas but they both suck..though they sound similar.

 

Naturally my debts have snowballed via charges etc. Of course i will begin to recover some and make my way to recovery asap unless i'm bankrupt!. But without a bank account or proper address (homeless), how i'm i to start this slog? O.k enough said, too many issues.

 

Back to the thread quote, I'm interested bankruptcy topic when you have the time! I've been living like one for more than a year so i can't see what difference it's gonna make to my lifestyle. I don't have any assets, don't need a mortgage. Let's face it, who would want to get credit again when it's the very thing that gets you into trouble??????

Isn't CREDIT doublespeak for DEBT? Now remember that ppl, when you are watching those Orwellian Debt adverts that promise to help you when they offer CREDIT, Remember they're offering to get you more into DEBT!!....I find this a disturbing tactic! But hey! it works! ....

 

Thank you for reading my late night rant.:grin:

 

Jaws

 

 

 

Bankruptcy is a very complex area and really needs it's own chapter. So as soon as I can I'll put it on the list of things to do.

 

Just a couple of quick points though.

 

It costs money to go bankrupt (although if you got a credit card you can always take it from there just before submitting you petition )

 

It takes time to go bankrupt (some courts need weeks of notice just to submit your petition) and the forms can be a bit complex and require a few hours of digging up paperwork.

 

Your will need to have had professional advice as the judge will ask and will NOT process the petition if you haven't received any (Most people contact the CCCS and they are a good starting point)

 

Bankruptcy is not just about wiping out your debts, it does cause other problems that few bankrupts realise before hand:

 

The Official Receiver (OR) will freeze ALL your accounts (bank, savings, ISA, off shore accounts , etc) and if you haven't planned the first 4 weeks after submitting you petition, you could find life getting a lot worse before it gets better.

 

The OR will appoint 'an examiner' to audit all your accounts looking at Income and expenditure for up to 3 years and they can go back much longer if required. They will need to provide the Creditors with a 'creditors report' that should support your version of 'reason for bankruptcy'. This is generally agreed to be the most stressful part, and is often coupled with a number of interviews either with the OR or the examiner.

 

However, if you plan the bankruptcy and have enough cash in hand to pay the bills, etc. until the OR allows you to use your basic account (you can open a basic account with the co-op the day you are declared bankrupt - but you MUST notify them of you bankruptcy, it won't be a problem though), then you should be OK. But my advice is....don't do it on the spur of the moment

[JonCris]

Any Creditor or DCA that have agreed to the terms of CAIS by signing up to the information sharing scheme have a duty to provide the CRA with any information that '...would be of benefit to other CAIS members in determining credit facilities'.

 

Sorry brink but I have to take you task on this.

 

The CRA's can sign all the agreements they like but if the data subject is not involved then any such agreement is open to challenge in the courts

 

Also the CRA's seem to have adopted an arrogant attitude that they are some sort of statutory body - they are not - they are private companies subject, like the rrest of us, to all the laws of the land

[andrew1]

Any Creditor or DCA that have agreed to the terms of CAIS by signing up to the information sharing scheme have a duty to provide the CRA with any information that '...would be of benefit to other CAIS members in determining credit facilities'.

 

A duty to whom? and who lays the rules down for this 'duty to be abided by'? Is this another one of these self regulated boys clubs within the credit Industry to share details between themselves for their own benefit by any chance?

[nicklea]

All he means is that this is a term of the contract that they signed with the CRAs and, if you sign any contract, then you have a duty to abide by those terms (unless of course they are unfair and/or unreasonable)

[ScarletPimpernel]

I have challenged one bank and several DCAs who have told me they are 'legally obliged' to record info with CRAs, to tell me which statute law they rely upon to make that statement; none have ever responded - they just ignore the question - because, of course, there is no legal obligation.

 

CRAs often waffle about legal obligations too, but if pressed will admit that they mean a contractual obligation, or rather two contractual obligations. Firstly, the contract between the customer and the creditor, and secondly between the creditor and the CRA. It strikes me that in cases where the client (i.e. the creditor) cannot produce evidence of express consent to process data, then the CRAs could be committing an offence as well.

[andrew1]

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear.

 

"Any Creditor or DCA that have agreed to the terms of CAIS by signing up to the information sharing scheme"

 

So, back to basics, Who or what EXACTLY is CAIS? I believe it is a scheme which banks, finance companies, Companies giving credit out generally, some 400 of them can sign up to to obtain certain information and share information about potential customers credit histories.

 

Who set it up?

 

Is it tied to any legislation or regulatory body?

 

Who runs it?

[JonCris]

All he means is that this is a term of the contract that they signed with the CRAs and, if you sign any contract, then you have a duty to abide by those terms (unless of course they are unfair and/or unreasonable)

 

I'm fully aware of what he means.

 

I'm saying that just because they signed a BtoB contract with their mates still doesn't make it lawful to transmit personal data.

 

For it to be lawful the subject has to agree otherwise it ain't - & if was it would make a complete mockery of the DPA which is precisely what they are trying to do now under the guise of 'sharing' info to 'help' the consumer manage their finances by refusing them credit

 

The CRA's have over the years tried to claim the mantle of some sort of agency with statutory powers allowing them (in their eyes) to disregard the rights of the consumer when in fact they are as much subject to the law as any other private company

[JonCris]

I have challenged one bank and several DCAs who have told me they are 'legally obliged' to record info with CRAs, to tell me which statute law they rely upon to make that statement; none have ever responded - they just ignore the question - because, of course, there is no legal obligation.

 

CRAs often waffle about legal obligations too, but if pressed will admit that they mean a contractual obligation, or rather two contractual obligations. Firstly, the contract between the customer and the creditor, and secondly between the creditor and the CRA. It strikes me that in cases where the client (i.e. the creditor) cannot produce evidence of express consent to process data, then the CRAs could be committing an offence as well.

 

Me too SP & did you know if you tell them that the data is wrong their idea of checking it is to ask their client (by email) if it's correct & some snotty clerk somewhere presses a button to say yes - that's it. They believe their client is always right - & the consumer a liar

 

When confronted they state that they don't have the facilities to investigate complaints about inaccurate data to which I reply "OK since you have been advised that the data is wrong yet refuse to remove it or even to investigate the allegations I will see you in court & remember as you have been told it is wrong you can no longer rely on a 'good faith'" argument

[ScarletPimpernel]

Presumably CRAs need a consumer credit licence; if so, perhaps the OFT should be looking at their so-called inability to investigate complaints, since the Consumer Credit Act 2006 requires licence holders to do just that.

[JonCris]

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear.

 

"Any Creditor or DCA that have agreed to the terms of CAIS by signing up to the information sharing scheme"

 

So, back to basics, Who or what EXACTLY is CAIS? I believe it is a scheme which banks, finance companies, Companies giving credit out generally, some 400 of them can sign up to to obtain certain information and share information about potential customers credit histories.

 

Who set it up? The CRA's at the behest of the HoC Finance Commitee

 

Is it tied to any legislation or regulatory body? No. It has no statutory force

 

Who runs it?

The CRA's

[JonCris]

Presumably CRAs need a consumer credit licence; if so, perhaps the OFT should be looking at their so-called inability to investigate complaints, since the Consumer Credit Act 2006 requires licence holders to do just that.

 

Whilst I'm not claiming it was due to me & my threat of litigation, I have heard that the CRA's are or have already introduced a new code of practice whereby their clients will have, if required, to provide evidence that the data is accurate.

 

In fact I think they have recently been reminding clients that it is their duty to ensure the data is correct failing which they could be sued by the subject & have their CCL called into question

[andrew1]

oops..