Natwest v's us (angry and fighting back!!)

[Soo43]

i wonder if anyone can help me please on 31st january i sent the following letter to natwest:

 

Natwest Credit Card Operations

PO Box 5636

Southend-on-sea

SS99 1WJ

 

Thursday, 31 January 2008

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Claimant: xxxxxx

Defendant: Natwest Credit Card

Reference Number: xxxxxxxx

Thank you for you letter of the 9 January 2008 and the copy of your Terms and Conditions.

 

However I must point out that the enclosed are a current copy of the Terms and Conditions, and the copies required are from the opening of the account(s)and all subsequent updates until the present day.

 

For the avoidance of doubt I now request you seek to provide me with:

1. A legible copy of the original contract that I signed with yourselves

2. A copy of my original terms and conditions and copies of all subsequent terms and conditions and amendments to these terms and conditions until they reflect your current terms and conditions

3. A detailed report of which clause, in the terms and conditions, each charge has been applied against

4. If the enclosed are a true and valid copy of the Terms and Conditions at the time of opening the account, I require a true and certified letter indicating that this is indeed the case

5. I also require the above to be replied to within 14 Days

 

Yours Faithfully

 

xxxxxxxx

 

Received today this letter from natwest....can anyone please advise:

 

thank you for your letter dated 31 january concerning your various requests for validation of the account

 

i am very sorry that our previous response was insufficient and respectfully remind you that there is no requirement under s78 to provide a copy of the original signed application form. we are, however, obliged to provide the customer with a true copy of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and this was issued to you when the account was opened in 1999.

 

You have outlined your complaint in the clearest possible terms and i appreciate the strength of your feelings, however, this is a credit card facility whereby you have borrowed money by using the card to pay for goods and swervices. Statements have been issued on a monthly basis since 19999 detailing all purchases and i am disappointed that you have now chosen to refute liability for this debt.

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your most recent statement. I am satisfied that what you lawfully owe us has been set out in detail and i do not consider it necessary to meet the unreasonable request(s) you have now made. If you cease making repayment we will take debt recovery action against you which will include the procedures prescribed under the consumer credit act. If you dispute our legal right to have the money you borrows from us repaid, you are free to bring the matter to the attention of the courts.

 

i will leave the file open until 8 april to ensure you have sufficient time to consider my comments. If you are happy with my letter, you do not need to do anything else and on this date i will close the file.

[spamheed]

what you have done is ask the right question, however they know the rules surrounding this request better than you. try the following letter and process as it outlines correctly the legal request and makes them (lets say) a little more aware of their legal obligations

 

Firstly, insist that all communications are in writing, lies can be told and later denied during telephone calls, they cant in writing.

 

Paying a debt does not necessarily mean it is legal or legitimate, they need to prove both points to be true

 

This is achieved by requesting a copy of the Signed, Executed Credit Agreement via a Consumer Credit Act (CCA) request.

There is a template letter to be found here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....templates.html

Letter N.

Is it very important to start the letter with the line:

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY in Big Bold letters underlined.

 

always send this request recorded (registered if you can afford it). send a £1 postal order with the request and do not sign anything.

 

keep copies of all correspondence and proof of posting. if you can prove that you sent the request and that they signed for it, it ceases to be your problem

 

After 12 WORKING days the "debt" is in default and stays that way until the request is complied with.

If a FURTHER month passes then the DCA has committed a summary criminal offence and the matter should be referred to Trading Standards for action once the DCA continues to demand payment.

 

follow this path and you should spark their interest a little further

 

hope this helps

[Soo43]

hi and thanks for advise

 

we have already sent letter N back on 12th December and had no response from them ...... the cheque has not be cashed either.....i have proof of postage but not recorded......should i sent it again???

[Soo43]

perhaps i should elobrate a little more

 

i will scan documents - 5 mins

[spamheed]

Hi

 

I have reread your post and realised I have misunderstood your current position within the whole process

 

I now realise that you have submitted a CCA request, had something back from them and then the letters shown below constitute the correspondence following their reply.

 

i wonder if anyone can help me please on 31st january i sent the following letter to NatWest:

 

thank you for your letter dated 31 january concerning your various requests for validation of the account

 

 

i am very sorry that our previous response was insufficient and respectfully remind you that there is no requirement under s78 to provide a copy of the original signed application form. we are, however, obliged to provide the customer with a true copy of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and this was issued to you when the account was opened in 1999.

 

You have outlined your complaint in the clearest possible terms and i appreciate the strength of your feelings, however, this is a credit card facility whereby you have borrowed money by using the card to pay for goods and swervices. Statements have been issued on a monthly basis since 19999 detailing all purchases and i am disappointed that you have now chosen to refute liability for this debt.

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your most recent statement. I am satisfied that what you lawfully owe us has been set out in detail and i do not consider it necessary to meet the unreasonable request(s) you have now made. If you cease making repayment we will take debt recovery action against you which will include the procedures prescribed under the consumer credit act. If you dispute our legal right to have the money you borrows from us repaid, you are free to bring the matter to the attention of the courts. it is a legal request, they are obliged to respond. If they find the law unreasonable then perhaps they should write to their MP, they can't have it both ways, "we want to use this law, but you aren't allowed to"

 

i will leave the file open until 8 april to ensure you have sufficient time to consider my comments. If you are happy with my letter, you do not need to do anything else and on this date i will close the file. They can leave it as long as they want, the law stipulates the timescales, not them

 

I think the whole thing depends on what they have sent you, are you certain that the CCA is not enforceable?

[ScarletPimpernel]

 

thank you for your letter dated 31 january concerning your various requests for validation of the account

 

i am very sorry that our previous response was insufficient and respectfully remind you that there is no requirement under s78 to provide a copy of the original signed application form. we are, however, obliged to provide the customer with a true copy of the agreement relevant to the card product at the date the card agreement was made and this was issued to you when the account was opened in 1999. This is a good combat indicator that they do not have the original agreement.

 

You have outlined your complaint in the clearest possible terms and i appreciate the strength of your feelings, however, this is a credit card facility whereby you have borrowed money by using the card to pay for goods and swervices. Statements have been issued on a monthly basis since 19999 detailing all purchases and i am disappointed that you have now chosen to refute liability for this debt. Standard template reply used by NatWest and RBS. It translates as: we don't have an agreement, and although we think we can behave just as we like, we are now attempting to make you think it's morally correct to pay us anyway.

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your most recent statement. I am satisfied that what you lawfully owe us has been set out in detail and i do not consider it necessary to meet the unreasonable request(s) you have now made. If you cease making repayment we will take debt recovery action against you which will include the procedures prescribed under the consumer credit act. If you dispute our legal right to have the money you borrows from us repaid, you are free to bring the matter to the attention of the courts. More template stuff. Given that they will need to produce the original signed and executed agreement if they want to enforce it, why do they think that you asking for a copy is unreasonable? The last sentence is pure bluff.

 

i will leave the file open until 8 april to ensure you have sufficient time to consider my comments. If you are happy with my letter, you do not need to do anything else and on this date i will close the file.

 

I'd suggest a short reply, asking them to put up or shut up.

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxxx. I am sorry you think it is unreasonable for me to ask you to properly comply with my request pursuant to s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by producing copies of the documents referred to in the agreement. Your wilful ignorance of the law, and failure to make any meaningful effort to resolve the dispute between us is dissapointing.

 

I would be grateful if you would kindly confirm whether or not you are in possession of a signed and executed agreement in respect of the above account.

 

Yours etc.

 

 

I've had similar nonsense from both HSBC and RBS. HSBC admitted they had no agreement, and that the debt was unenforceable - they tried a couple of DCAs, both of whom backed off when they were told it was unenforceable; RBS sent one 'we intend to pursue this' letter, but their silence has been conspicuous.

[Soo43]

ok i think i can expand a little on 18th december we sent this letter

 

 

«Company name»

«address 1»

«address 2»

«town»

«county»

«post code»

 

Tuesday, 18 December 2007

Dear sir or madam

Re:- Account/Reference Number «account no»

 

With reference to the above agreement, we would be grateful if you would send us a copy of this credit agreement.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79), we are entitled to receive a copy of our credit agreement on request. We enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

We understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

signature

Enc - cheque £1.00

 

we heard nothing for ages then we received these documents

Credit card agreement - and copy of application form

i am just trying to upload the documents but basically we got a copy of the application form - and they sent credit card agreement with my card number on it and credit limit on it - BUT they had my current address on it and we only moved here in nov 2006 not 1999 when the agreement they refer to was alleged to have been taken out.

i then wrote the first letter i placed on this forum

[Soo43]

trying to upload documents but unsuccessful can i email them to you to look at??

[kev100]

trying to upload documents but unsuccessful can i email them to you to look at??

 

I had this problem earlier today

 

its simple

 

open a photobucket account and upload your documents there, then put the links in a message here.

 

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

 

[ScarletPimpernel]

All of which points to them not having an enforceable agreement.

 

If they do, why don't they send you a copy instead of going to the trouble of cobbling together a looky-likey? Notice how careful their wording is - it mentions debt collection procedures (well, they can ask...), and it mentions that you can query their legalrights in court - but it doesn't say they'll be starting litigation - because they know they can't.

[Soo43]

[spamheed]

send the following

 

quote

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your letter dated **********, the contents of which are noted

I note that to date you have not complied with my request for a copy of the credit agreement for this alleged debt which you are pursuing me for

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

My request remains outstanding. All you have sent is a pre-contractual application form, which does not contain the prescribed terms contained within Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). Without production of the said agreement I am unable to asses if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(2) …….

(3)….….

(4) ………

(4A)……

(5) ………

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

(7) This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement, and subsections [(4) to (5)] do not apply to a small agreement.

 

 

Clearly the agreement which was supplied in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in s78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify s61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

 

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

 

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced. I will re-iterate that this is clearly not a true copy of the executed agreement between ********* and myself.

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ********* become compliant with my request. As ****** are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

• All charges levied since ******** 2007 be removed from the account and further charges cease until such time as ******8 comply fully with my original request or such time as a court makes an enforcement order
• All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file
  
• All collection activities by your company cease with immediate effect until ******** comply with my request from ********* 2007 or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

Clearly your pursuance of this debt falls into this category; in addition I must draw your attention to the fact that this debt is under investigation by Mr ******** of ********************** Trading Standards as I have made a complaint as a direct result of **************** failure to comply with the CCA 74 .

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement and all documents referred to in it as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist.

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Regards

 

 

 

unquote

 

 

At the end of the day you have made a legal request, you have proof that you sent it and that they received it, they are in default of that request.

 

the document with your current address on has been produced in an attempt to deceive you and should be reported to Trading Standards, how can a supposed agreement from 6yrs+ ago contain your current address if you have moved during that time? even if it were enforceable in all other ways, this simple fact makes them completely irrelevant

 

 

[Soo43]

thank you spamhead - i will prepare the letter now

[spamheed]

All of which points to them not having an enforceable agreement. Fully agree, yeah, but no, but yeah, but no..... it has that ring of someone who is outraged at having their integrity questioned and it's normally a reaction based on fear of discovery

 

If they do, why don't they send you a copy instead of going to the trouble of cobbling together a looky-likey? Notice how careful their wording is - it mentions debt collection procedures (well, they can ask...), and it mentions that you can query their legalrights in court - but it doesn't say they'll be starting litigation - because they know they can't.

 

at the end of the day you're still waiting for your request to be fulfilled and the clock is still ticking, and you have it in writing that they think your legal request is unreasonable and that they can create false imstruments at will.

 

 

I'm sure there's a law against that last one LOL :o

[Soo43]

i dont not think they realise that they have put my new address on the credit card agreement !!!! should i tell them????

[spamheed]

tell them nothing, if they claim that what they have sent you is a true copy of the agreement that you signed, they will be acknowledging that they are effectively attempting to deceive you with a forgery. it's all about building evidence

 

we don't want to put them off, keep on giving them the rope and lets see if they do a good job

[Soo43]

this is the information we have had from NatWest so far

[Soo43]

[sosumi]

Soo, you have left your personal details on the files - please take them off, we get 'visitors' here now and then!! xx

[sosumi]

Hi Soo, if you open the files on your computer with MS Paint and use the 'thick brush' you can paint over your details, save the files and post them back here again. I've posted details here accidentally before - just better to be safe than sorry

[Soo43]

thought i had changed them..... were are they showing now please

[sosumi]

I saw you'd edited Soo, was just worried I'd put you off actually posting - didn't mean to!

 

sosumi x