Taking responsibility for your own actions

[banker_rhymes_with]

I just had to respond to this one...

 

But when i see people who over six years have racked up thousands and thousands of pounds in charges just through poor account management i think it undermines the arguments of the group i spoke of first. Poor bank administration can not be the case in every single instance of bank charges. I used to see people who would have a late payment free on their credit card every single month, where is the logic in doing that. The bank i worked for would send a letter each month with the statement advising to pay by direct debit in order to avoid this charge but people would still ignore it. Some people have just paid no attention to their accounts and now jump on the bandwagon slagging off the banks. It is these people who I do not sympathise with.

 

I am Self-Employed. I created my business from scratch. I have built it up. I have taught myself many things from Book-Keeping, to Accounts and basic Law. Sometimes this required working 18-24 hours a day (absolutely no kidding).

 

I now have some help, but I still do 1001 Jobs within the business, from handling the Admin, the Books, the VAT, the Tax, the Red Tape, making Tea, Cleaning, running several Web Sites, writing the HTML for the Web Sites, Graphic Design, IT Manager, Network Manager, Health and Safety Manager, Teacher and acting as the qualified Transport Manager for our Commercial Vehicles where I also have to keep track of ever more onerous Road and Vehicle Legislation.

 

Then I run the side that makes the money: dealing with Clients, Marketing, Buying, Stocking, Web Listing, Selling, Invoicing, Picking, Packing, handling any problems, Driving, plus Client Design and Services.

 

Clients pay us. Sometimes a few Days late, but we do not levy any silly £30-£35 Penalty Fines. I use our Accounting Package to keep track, and chase the odd one who is late via Statement and Letter. It is not Rocket Science and it is not hard to handle.

 

If I can do all of this, then why the hell can't a bank or Credit Card Company cope with good Clients who just happen to Pay a few Days late every Month? If they sat back and did nothing all Month but checked the Accounts at the end of the Month, they would see all the Good ones would've Paid. No need for sending any Letters, and no need for Penalty Fines.

 

By all means Chase the ones who miss any Payments completely, but still do so with due care and understanding. There remains no need to levy Fines.

 

After all, banking is all they do. It's their sole purpose. It's their Job! They have far more powerful Networks and Accounting Systems than I do. They have thousands of people working for them whose sole job is also banking. And yet these people can't seem to cope with being able to tell good Clients from Bad without hitting all with Penalty Charges, Fees and snotty Letters and Phone Calls threatening financial ruin.

 

In the past we used to have proper Bank Managers and Banks. People you could go and speak to, who took time to understand your affairs and Business. They had Local Authority, and ran their Branch with acceptable skill and fairness. Lending was both timely, appropriate and well considered. I could walk in, and walk out with a 100k temporary Overdraft.

 

That is now gone.

 

Now we have huge, bloated and inefficient Corporate money-lenders, who are obsessed only by Profit and the maximisation of that using any means they can. Their Powerful Networks and Systems are not used to manage Accounts for the benefit of their Customers (who, let us not forget, Pay through the nose for banking services), but to spot weakness and exploit it for their own benefit. Privileged Financial Information is often used by the banks for their financial advantage to lever even greater Profits from Loan Fees and wholly obscene added "Insurance" costing them 5% of what they charge Customers for this "protection" and "peace of mind".

 

To add insult to injury, when these bankers then use our money to make investments, they often end up writing off millions, sometime billions, when their hair-brained investments flounder. A drunken monkey could do no worse selecting their Investments via Blindfold Pin the Tail on the Donkey.

 

I cannot get a 5k Overdraft now without employing an Accountant to assist with Cash Flow Projections for the next 30 Years.

 

Local Branches are now just vacant shells, staffed by Drones with no Authority. Managers are now managers, with silly Titles like Local Business Manager, or Manager in Charge of Squat, with no local authority. They just shuffle around as data hunter-gatherers, tasked to sniff around local clients in order to check on physical security and then fill out numbers on Spreadsheets. That's if you even see them these days!

 

Call Centres are mostly no longer in this Country, adding Language Barriers, Cultural issues and Data-Risk aspects to an already absurd situation. The Call Centres that are in this Country seem to be staffed mostly by aggressive and ignorant YTS students on a Commission to extract instant Payments by any means they can.

 

Hit a financial problem, and these bankers are all over you like a rash, heaping extra fines and penalty interest that just adds fuel to a minor fire. In many cases, it all then becomes a self-licking lollipop that causes severe financial problems where none really existed from the outset.

 

I have absolutely no sympathy for banks until they start to behave in a more ethical and appropriate manner with their Clients interests at heart.

 

Have a good one.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[JOSH_IOU]

yes if they done that some peeps might actually want to pay the charges

[michee]

I had one direct debit for £5 coming out of my bank, but the money I put in for it swallowed up by a bank charge of £35 (Because a debit went out before my child tax credit went in on the same day it always does and has done for the past 5 years!).

 

Anyway, they wouldn't waiver it, so needless to say it ate into my £20 balance - the direct debit for £5 bounced - I got another charge.

 

On the recall it bounced again - another charge

 

Then they write to tell me I'm getting a £28 charge for having an unorthorised overdraft, so now, I have a debit on my account in the region of £140

 

I wrote to advise them of the circumstances as I refuse to ring them up, they tend to treat customers like they were something they trod in on the way to work, no listening skills whatsover.

 

I haven't heard back, except for a letter once a month telling me they are charging another £28.

 

I am on benefits, I have a tight budget and do not go on spending sprees, I don't have a cheque book and pay all my bills weekly. Ocassionally a mistake happens but when I set up a standing order on the day my child tax credits go in and they bounce it because the debit went out first - it's laughable!

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello michee!

 

If you have not already done so, I would suggest starting a New Thread in the Banking Sections applicable to the nasty bank you are with.

 

Outline all key events and dates, without saying who you are that is, and I'm sure you'll get plenty of help from many people here to try and resolve this for you.

 

You are quite right to Write to them only, there is never anything to be gained by Telephoning a bank to discuss anything complex or important that relates to your own Financial Well-Being.

 

All it does is give them the upper hand, by allowing them to use their greater level of word twisting experience, or just plain narrow minded arrogance, to try and outwit you or just extract Payment and/or lecture you about the "banks position".

 

I'd love to know what a bank's "position" actually is, but all the ones I can imagine are exceptionally rude and very funny!

 

Just keep in mind that the word "banker" is a term of howling derision these days. When I am very annoyed at someone, that's what I call them. I cannot think of anything less disrespectful than being called a right "banker".

 

Don't give in to these people. Don't get mad, get even.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[kennythecelt]

Thanks for advice given to Michee, Banker!!

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello kennythecelt!

 

Thanks for advice given to Michee, Banker!!

 

banker?

 

How velly ruuuuuuuud!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[credit allergy]

I have read all the posts on this thread and wish to add the following views. I accept that banks are businesses aiming to make a profit, also they are not there to sort peoples problems out. However citizens are allowed to make legal challenges in this country if they desire. Whether that seems greedy or not is immaterial. I understand that there are numerous reasons for debt and the debt has to be repaid. However I expect finacial institutions and DCAs to act lawfully by complying with amongst other things sec 77/78 CCA 1974 which I have found is not always the case. The opening post comments on T and Cs and contracts the point then mentioned is correct. No contract can overwrite the law a good example is Employment law depite employers demands the contract has to comply with the law. The thing the banks have to realise is that if they really provided customer service their profits would soar. Instead the money shop cash cheques and seem to haver no problems collecting their money.

[389shell]

Unknown Warrior , I totally know where you are coming from.

 

I am sat here now in my lovely council house, watching Sky movies on my 89' plasma HDTV eating my caviar and lobster pizza. I have just waved goodbye to my 36 children as they jetted down the 'estate' on their quad bikes that I bought them from this weeks giro.

 

I was thinking to myself as I put my hair extentions into a ponytail, I am not sure if my housing benefit is due tomorrow, I think I will cancel my important DDs and just leave the sky one, don't want that being cut off!

 

If I do this, I can get my nails done with Shaz and Trace and take the baby to have its ears pierced, I might even have enough to get myself a soverign from the Gold Centre!

 

I hope you can see me waving at you Warrior, up there on your moral high ground, if you can't, just let me know and I will nip up the high rise where me mam lives so you can get a better look.

 

[Helford]

Quick point!

 

If I go to a cashpoint and try to withdraw cash from my Halifax Cashcard account and have insufficient funds it refuses me, but it does not charge me. However if an automatic direct debit is presented with insufficient funds it will NEVER be paid, yet they charge me £39.00 for the privilidge. The same technology is present, where is the justification?

 

H

[fergal71]

hi there is no justification...... I have claimed back from the 2 credit card companies twice each one of all £20 charges and recently for all £12 charges they have now flicked a switch and my accounts stay under my credit limit anything going over is refused... It just proves they can.... They knew what they where doing and this proves they could have stopped it at any time.... when they realise they are no longer making money out of you this way they stop you going over and use other ways to get your money, higher interest , increase for taking cash etc.... Greed , I will soon be credit free and rid of these snakes forever... pre pay is the way to go... It is difficult at first but much better and less stressful in the long term...

[loz]

Quick point!

 

If I go to a cashpoint and try to withdraw cash from my Halifax Cashcard account and have insufficient funds it refuses me, but it does not charge me. However if an automatic direct debit is presented with insufficient funds it will NEVER be paid, yet they charge me £39.00 for the privilidge. The same technology is present, where is the justification?

 

H

I've been wondering this for ages... It would be great if a bank had to answer this sort of question in court

[dave]

...and that's the thing that suprised me - it was never bought up. Most people who are 'anti' getting your charges back say "don't spend money you haven't got".

 

That argument fall to bits when faced with this.

[indebtstudent]

This is my favourite point too, how the HELL can it be a 'service' where no transaction is actually made? In all honesty the overwhelming majority of charges complaints I come across invovle payments which were NOT made. I can at least see the logic, a little, if the bank DID make the payment as they are taking on risks they did not agree to.

[Tobecontinued...]

Hi, Just signed up to the site as i want to get my viewpoint across on a couple of issues. I do work for a bank, would rather not say which one as the vultures in IT probably read these forums and I could get into trouble for posting.... BUT...

 

I can never fathom how it costs the bank for NOT paying a DD!?! As someone pointed out before thats like me Going to give someone some money, them rejecting my money so i charge them extra for them not taking my money... it really is scandalous and i belive something should be done about it.

Another thing which stood out is this new "unauthorised overdraft" facilty my barclays account just recently had added to it. Basicly i can go up to £250.00 into the red on my current account but if i do barclays will charge me £25 a week (!?!?!) until im out of it. Now i must admit barclays did advise me of this by means of a scrappy bit of paper bundled in with one of my statements, but it looked like marketing junk or a credit card promos so naturally i didnt read it... it could be argued i should have read it i understand this but that doesnt mean the charges are fair. Anyway to cut long story short i had a few pounds left in the account a few days before payday (get paid on last friday of the month) just so happens this month my gym decided to take DD a day early ergo not enough funds in the account. Charge for returned DD goes on. This took me into UNAUTH overdraft and bam £25 whacked on, I have found once you enter this overdraft it is extremely difficult to get out of the vicious circle, you pay it off one week and then another charge goes on so in effect the bank are getting free money.

 

Surely if your bank knows you have insufficient funds in your account but still allow you to buy something they are in effect authorising this overdraft??? Its completely baffling. Plus the fact they wrote to me to tell me i have an overdraft limit of £250.00 is them authorising me to use it!!!!

 

it i beyond belief what the banks get away with.

 

Also another poster mentioned banks refusing DD when there are plenty of funds in the account - I come accross this EVERY DAY in my role. You would not believe how many people trust their banks with what they tell their customers and take it as word of law. I always try to explain to these people that just because the bank is telling you one thing (I.E my company has gone for it too early ETC, does in no circumstances mean what they are telling you is the truth! They want your money and dont care how they get it....

 

I must finally make clear i am not describing the company i work for here but using my experience from working for a major financial institution and dealing with high street banks on a day to day basis.

 

Thankyooooo

 

Edit - I also want to say i find the OP comments both disturbing and extremely patronising, taking into account the experience and intelligence of the majority of the posters on this forum i feel you are a little naive that you believe "you know best" because you have worked for these companies. Lets hope you never have a sudden berevement, loss of earnings, unexpected redundancy because when that happens you will realise how childish and foolhardy your original post is. I myself work in a call centre on the front line dealing with customers every day, I enjoy my work and the most rewarding part of my job is helping our customers when they find themselves in this type of situation, I have customers who have a usual income of 15k (a week) these are people who have well paid jobs, houses and a family to care for and when something happens they could never have predicted in a million years for instance their company going bankrupt, the last thing they want to hear is a spotty faced teenager in a call center lecturing them on how they "should have read the t &c's" "why get credit when you have such a good job" beleive me i have heard this all before in my call centre and it really makes me angry when i hear people spouting this rubbish.

 

if you really believe what you originally said is sensible and endearing to the many people who post on this forum i believe you are delusional. That is my opinion of you. You my friend are the stereotype in our industry and are the kind of person who gives the rest of us a bad name. i thankyou and goodnight /rant

Edited January 13, 2009 by Tobecontinued...
Something to add with regards to OP

[flyingdoc]

Ill never forget being verbally (and almost physically) abused by a woman once during the short period we were taking bank charges cases.

 

She was incensed that I was threatening her "right to free banking" and that if we reclaimed all the charges that had been paid by those people "without the sense to manage their money" then she would have to pay for banking services

 

I asked her if she felt it was fair that the banking facilities she enjoyed for free, (being a well to do sort of woman) were being paid for by money taken from people who couldnt afford it - but she, for some reason had no problem with this.

 

I would have no problem paying for banking. a fee per transaction, I think FREE BANKING is the worst thing that ever happened to the poorer people of this country because it is THEM that is paying for the FREE BANKING of the better off.

 

My Business partners father always says "its hellishly expensive to be poor" how right he is....

[Tobecontinued...]

I will never forget my most stressful and traumatising call so far, which was because the customer was a lawyer.. She actually enjoyed reading the law to me, listening to me squirm as i had to explain i am not a lawyer or financial expert and i did not know what section x was of this act and how MY personal actions were contravining this act. She knew i didn't have a clue what she was on about. Safe to say i had to go outside for a few cigs after that call.... my god

[flyingdoc]

I once told a woman in a DCA that I was going to sue her personally under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 because it was her that was making the harassing phone call - the call ended rather abruptly and I never heard from that DCA again.

[Tobecontinued...]

nice tactics Fortunetly i am yet to have to deal with a DCA, i imagine it could be rather amusing from certain posts on this board. Obviously it could also be rather depressing... depends how you look at it.

 

TBC

[dave]

But it seems that alot of you want the banks to pay YOU for borrowing money that isn't yours.

 

If I went up to someone in the street and took money from them without their permission I am stealing.

 

I have to say, I just love those quotes.

 

...but for the purpose of clarity:

 

But it seems that a lot of them want the people to pay THEM for borrowing money that isn't theirs.

 

If I took taxpayers money from people in the street without their permission we would be stealing.

 

Love it. How the worm has turned.

 

So please, unknown warrior, explain how it's now ok, now that it's the other way around?

[phatram]

Come on UW, answer the question.

[389shell]

Tee hee hee

 

'Northern Rock'

 

Classic!

[phatram]

Still waiting UW.

[Grummy]

the problem is not that Banks charge, we know that, and for the most part, people accept that. I've worked in a bank call center too, and I know what you know, which is why I know the banks are corrupt as hell.

 

Banks will throw lines of credit to anybody they can,. often giving them more and more. This is what sstarted this whole debt problem and subseuent economic crash in UK banks were throwing money around everywhere, and telling people to use it, and if you ever have problems just call us and we will help you.

 

Fact is, they don't. Banks don't listen, banks don't care when you have trouble paying. It is the lies and underhanded methods that people are angry with. People will refuse to pay their banks because they don't trust them, and rightly so. I've worked in the undustry, I know banks can't be trusted. I worked for Bank of America, and when I left it was because of a difference of opinion in business practices. I was mostly concerned with people, with helping those who have financial problems, making things as easyas possible for them so they would continue to pay us rather than abandon us. BoA don't care for that, their approach was always 'Sell sell sell, more money, more money, more money'. I disagree with this approach in the strongest possible terms and ultimately I was gone fromt eh company, and Im happy as sin for it. It made me sick to have to cause more stress and difficulties for good people who have got themselves into difficulty, and make no mistake, when you're working in the industry you HAVE to, otherwise your job is forfeit.

 

If banks were reasonable and would agree to assist people in making repayments when they struggle, cancel charges, freeze interest or other things, people would be more prepared to deal with the banks and pay them back. Because of the way banks demonize and alienate its customers, is it any surprise people aren't willing to make their own repayments?

[indebtstudent]

"Banks don't listen, banks don't care when you have trouble paying"

 

I know this so why are they permitted to print the opposite in thier literature? What's the point of the banking code?

 

I am very much like you I left Nationwide because well the best way I can put it is I simply didn't agree with the way they do business. Now they have "Proud to be a building society" displayed on thier website which has nothing to with what they actually believe and everything to do with capitalising on people's genuine fears in the present climate.

 

What i do know is that Nationwide wants to be more like the banks, more efficient so it can compete with them. I wonder how this plan has gone since the banks began to crumble.

 

RBS was so 'efficient' it is basically state owned.

 

What nobody in the anti-charges brigade understands is there is a principle at stake here. If Natwest charged £14 for an unpaid item in 02 but now charge £38 for an unpaid DD (which involves them doing absolutely NOTHING) where does it end?

 

If I get a CORGI registered engineer to fix my boiler and he messes it up so bad I have to get someone else to do the work. I can sue him or his company for the cost of the repair because he hasn't done it with due care an dillgence etc.

 

What I can't do it rely on some shady contractual term which says he must pay me £1 million. In essence this is what the banks are doing, it is only a difference of degree.

 

I might change my SIG to include returning BILLIONS worth of bank charges would be a fiscal stimulus not 2.5% off VAT!!!!

[fleeced_by_rbos]

The comment made by BRW regarding the networks and accounting systems that spot weaknesses rings a very large bell with me.

 

I have never worked for a bank but I did once work for a company that did spread betting and other forms of financial trading. I worked on designing and coding the software which handled not only the matching of puts and calls as they are known but also on an analytics system which basically looked for patterns in markets and in trades. The guys I worked with mostly came from the banking and finance sector and used to tell me about the systems they developed that handled all those dodgy financial instruments we now hear about as well as analysing "account behaviour".

 

It strikes me that banks are more automated than ever now with your life in the hands of software that has been developed for the sole purpose of screwing as much cash out of customers as possible, while human intervention is almost all but gone.