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    • Thank you very much for your help. To answer your two questions:  1. I did not send a CPR request when the Claim Form arrived. 2. They did send a claim form, in March 2023. This is the document from which I copied the particulars of their claim.  
    • Thanks. That's a lot to wade through.  Will get on to it. Two other quick questions. Did you send them a CPR request when the claim form arrived? Are you sure they didn't send a Letter of Claim before they sued you?
    • Hi there, Here is the sticky filled out as best as possible:  Which Court have you received the claim from? MCOL (County Court Business Centre, Northampton) Name of the Claimant: Uk Parking Control Limited Claimants Solicitors: DCB Legal Date of issue: March 2023 Following events: — DQ sent to me July 2023 — I filed a DQ in September 2023 — My claim was transferred to [my local court] September 2023 — Received Notice of Allocation to Small Claims Track (Hearing) including date for hearing in April 2024 — Witness statement due by May 14 — Claimant must pay court fees by May 17 — Court hearing on June 18   What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Please type out their particulars of claim (verbatim) less any identifiable data and round the amounts up/down. 1. The defendant is indebted to the claimant for a Parking Charge issued at [x] issued to vehicle [__] at Walcot Yard, Walcot Road, Bath, Ba1 5bg. 2. The PCN details are [___]. 3. The PCN(s) was issued on private land owned or managed by C. The vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms on Cs signs (the Contract), this incurring the PCNs. 4. The driver agreed to pay within 28 days but did not. D is liable as the driver or keeper. Despite requests, the PCN is outstanding. The Contract entitles C to damages.  AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS 1. £160 being the total of the PCN(s) and damages. 2. Interest at a rate of 8% per annum pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 from the date hereof at a daily rate of [x]p until judgement or sooner payment. 3. Costs and court fees   What is the value of the claim? ~260 Amount Claimed ~170 court fees ~35 legal rep fees ~50 Total Amount  ~260   Have you moved since the issuance of the PCN? No   Did you receive a letter of Claim With A reply Pack wanting I&E etc about 1mth before the claimform? No Here is the defence I filed:  DEFENCE 1. The parking charges referred to in this claim did not arise from any agreement of terms. The charge and the claim was an unexpected shock. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all. It is denied that any conduct by the driver was a breach of any prominent term and it is denied that this Claimant (understood to have a bare licence as managers) has standing to sue or form contracts in their own name. Liability is denied, whether or not the Claimant is claiming 'keeper liability', which is unclear from the Particulars. The facts as known to the Defendant: 2. It is admitted that on the material date the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, but liability is denied. 3. While working at a nearby premises, [___] the Defendant was informed by the manager that they had an informal verbal agreement with the developer and owner operator of [___], which supposedly allowed them to park there. Based on this information, the Defendant parked their car there in good faith. The Defendant was not aware of any restrictions or limitations to this agreement, and therefore believed that they had the right to park there without penalty. 4. The Defendant avers that the Claimant failed to serve a Notice to Keeper compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Consequently, the claimant cannot transfer liability for this charge to the Defendant as keeper of the vehicle. 5. The Particulars of Claim ('POC') appear to be in breach of CPR 16.4, 16PD3 and 16PD7, and fail to "state all facts necessary for the purpose of formulating a complete cause of action”. 6. The Defendant is unable, on the basis of the POC, to understand with certainty what case is being pursued. 7. The POC are entirely inadequate, in that they fail to particularise (a) the contractual term(s) relied upon; (b) the specifics of any alleged breach of contract; and (c) how the purported and unspecified 'damages' arose and the breakdown of the exaggerated quantum. 8. The claim has been issued via Money Claims Online and, as a result, is subject to a character limit for the Particulars of Claim section of the Claim Form. The fact that generic wording appears to have been applied has obstructed any semblance of clarity. The Defendant trusts that the court will agree that a claim pleaded in such generic terms lacks the required details and requires proper particularisation in a detailed document within 14 days, per 16PD.3 9. The guidance for completing Money Claims Online confirms this and clearly states: "If you do not have enough space to explain your claim online and you need to serve extra, more detailed particulars on the defendant, tick the box that appears after the statement 'you may also send detailed particulars direct to the defendant.'" 10. No further particulars have been filed and to the Defendant's knowledge, no application asking the court service for more time to serve and/or relief from sanctions has been filed either. 11. In view of it having been entirely within the Claimant's Solicitors' gift to properly plead the claim at the outset and the claim being for a sum, well within the small claims limit, such that the Defendant considers it disproportionate and at odds with the overriding objective (in the context of a failure by the Claimant to properly comply with rules and practice directions) for a Judge to throw the erring Claimant a lifeline by ordering further particulars (to which a further defence might be filed, followed by further referral to a Judge for directions and allocation) the court is respectfully invited to strike this claim out. 13. Whilst the new Code and Act is not retrospective, it was enacted due to the failure of the self-serving BPA & IPC Codes of Practice. The Minister is indisputably talking about existing (not future) cases when declaring that 'recovery' fees were 'designed to extort money'. A clear steer for the Courts which it is hoped overrides mistakes made in a few appeal cases that the parking industry desperately rely upon (Britannia v Semark-Jullien, One Parking Solution v Wilshaw, Vehicle Control Services v Ward and Vehicle Control Services v Percy). 14. Far from being persuasive, regrettably these one-sided appeals saw Circuit Judges led in one direction by Counsel for parking firms, and the litigant-in-person consumers lacked the wherewithal to appeal. In case this Claimant tries to rely upon these, the Defendant avers that errors were made in every case. Evidence was either overlooked (including signage discrepancies in Wilshaw, where the Judge was also oblivious to the BPA Code of Practice and the DVLA KADOE requirement for landowner authority) or the Judge inexplicably sought out and quoted from the wrong Code altogether (Percy). In Ward, a few seconds' emergency stop out of the control of the driver was unfairly aligned with the admitted parking contract in Beavis. Those learned Judges were not in possession of the same level of information as the DLUHC, whose incoming statutory Code of Practice now clarifies such matters as a definition of 'parking' as well as consideration and grace periods and minor matters such as 'keying errors' or 'fluttering tickets/permits' where a PCN should not have been issued at all, or should have been cancelled in the pre-action dispute phase. POFA and CRA breaches 15. Pursuant to Schedule 4 paragraph 4(5) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('the POFA') the sum claimed exceeds the maximum potentially recoverable from a registered keeper, even in cases where a firm may have complied with other POFA requirements (adequate signage, Notice to Keeper wording/dates, and a properly communicated 'relevant contract/relevant obligation'). If seeking keeper/hirer liability - unclear from the POC - the Claimant is put to strict proof of full compliance and liability transferred. 16. Claiming costs on an indemnity basis is unfair, per the Unfair Contract Terms Guidance (CMA37, para 5.14.3), the Government guidance on the Consumer Rights Act 2015 ('CRA'). The CRA introduced new requirements for 'prominence' of both contract terms and 'consumer notices'. In a parking context, this includes signage and all notices, letters and other communications intended to be read by the consumer. 17. Section 71 creates a duty upon courts to consider the test of fairness, including (but not limited to) whether all terms/notices were unambiguously and conspicuously brought to the attention of a consumer. Signage must be prominent, plentiful, well placed and lit, and all terms unambiguous and obligations clear. The Defendant avers that the CRA has been breached due to unfair/unclear terms and notices, pursuant to s62 and paying due regard to examples 6, 10, 14 & 18 of Schedule 2 and the requirements for fair/open dealing and good faith. ParkingEye v Beavis is distinguished (lack of legitimate interest/prominence of terms) 18. ParkingEye overcame the possibility of their £85 charge being dismissed as punitive, however the Supreme Court clarified that ‘the penalty rule is plainly engaged’ in parking cases, which must each be determined on their own facts. That 'unique' case met a commercial justification test, and took into account the prominent yellow/black uncluttered signs with £85 in the largest/boldest text. Rather than causing other parking charges to be automatically justified, the Beavis case facts set a high bar that this Claimant has failed to reach. 19. Paraphrasing from the Supreme Court, deterrence is likely to be penal if there is a lack of a 'legitimate interest' in performance extending beyond the prospect of compensation flowing directly from the alleged breach. The intention cannot be to punish a driver, nor to present them with hidden terms, unexpected/cumbersome obligations nor 'concealed pitfalls or traps'. 20. In the present case, the Claimant has fallen foul of those tests. The Claimant’s small signs have vague/hidden terms and a mix of small font, and are considered incapable of binding a driver. Consequently, it remains the Defendant’s position that no contract to pay an onerous 'penalty' was seen or agreed. Binding Court of Appeal authorities which are on all fours with a case involving unclear terms and a lack of ‘adequate notice’ of a parking charge, include: (i) Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] 1 WLR 461 (‘red hand rule’) and (ii) Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1970] EWCA Civ2, both leading authorities confirming that a clause cannot be incorporated after a contract has been concluded; and (iii) Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest: CA 5 Apr 2000, where Ms Vine won because it was held that she had not seen the terms by which she would later be bound, due to "the absence of any notice on the wall opposite the parking space'' (NB: when parking operator Claimants cite Vine, they often mislead courts by quoting out of context, Roch LJ's words about the Respondent’s losing case, and not from the ratio). 21. Fairness and clarity of terms and notices are paramount in the statutory Code and this is supported by the BPA & IPC Trade Bodies. In November 2020's Parking Review, solicitor Will Hurley, CEO of the IPC, observed: "Any regulation or instruction either has clarity or it doesn’t. If it’s clear to one person but not another, there is no clarity. The same is true for fairness. Something that is fair, by definition, has to be all-inclusive of all parties involved – it’s either fair or it isn’t. The introduction of a new ‘Code of Practice for Parking’ provides a wonderful opportunity to provide clarity and fairness for motorists and landowners alike." Lack of standing or landowner authority, and lack of ADR 22. DVLA data is only supplied to pursue parking charges if there is an agreement flowing from the landholder (ref: KADOE rules). It is not accepted that this Claimant (an agent of a principal) has authority from the landowner to issue charges in this place in their own name. The Claimant is put to strict proof that they have standing to make contracts with drivers and litigate in their own name. 23. The Claimant failed to offer a genuinely independent Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). The Appeals Annex in the new incoming statutory Code shows that genuine disputes such as this would see the charge cancelled, had a fair ADR existed. Whether or not a person engaged with it, the Claimant's consumer blame culture and reliance upon the industry's own 'appeals service' should not sway the court into a belief that a fair appeal was ever on offer. The rival Trade Bodies' time-limited and opaque 'appeals' services fail to properly consider facts or rules of law and reject almost any dispute: e.g. the IAS upheld appeals in a woeful 4% of decided cases (IPC's 2020 Annual Report). Conclusion 24. The claim is entirely without merit. The Defendant believes that it is in the public interest that claims like this should be struck out because knowingly enhanced parking claims like this one cause consumer harm on a grand scale. 25. There is ample evidence to support the view - long held by many District Judges - that these are knowingly exaggerated claims. For HMCTS to only disallow those costs in the tiny percentage of cases that reach hearings whilst other claims to continue to flood the courts unabated, is to fail hundreds of thousands of consumers who suffer CCJs or pay inflated amounts, in fear of intimidating pre-action threats. 26. In the matter of costs, the Defendant asks: (a) at the very least, for standard witness costs for attendance at Court, pursuant to CPR 27.14, and (b) for a finding of unreasonable conduct by this Claimant, seeking costs pursuant to CPR 46.5. 27. Attention is drawn specifically to the (often-seen from this industry) distinct possibility of an unreasonably late Notice of Discontinuance. Whilst CPR r.38.6 states that the Claimant is liable for the Defendant's costs after discontinuance (r.38.6(1)) this does not normally apply to claims allocated to the small claims track (r.38.6(3)). However, the White Book states (annotation 38.6.1): "Note that the normal rule as to costs does not apply if a claimant in a case allocated to the small claims track serves a notice of discontinuance although it might be contended that costs should be awarded if a party has behaved unreasonably (r.27.14(2)(dg))." Statement of Truth I believe that the facts stated in this defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.
    • Hi, I was caught by the security guards today for shoplifting in John Lewis. I think total amount is about £500. They said they saw me on CCTV last week, I was freaked out so I admitted it. I know it’s awful… I cried as I was too scared and begged them pls don’t call the police. They took pics of me and wrote down my details from banking app as I didn’t have any id with me. I told them my difficulties that I was scammed £35k recently and I lost my job so I stole those things and sell them. I apologised and they said they won’t call the police but I’m banned and will receive letters from RLP for fines which including this time and the last time(I didn’t give back the goods I took last time). I know it’s very very bad, I feel shameful and so depressed so hopeless about everything happened. I wonder since it’s a lot of money, will they sue me, take me to the court, or will they change their mind to call the police when they check the cctv footage to check how much I owe them? I said sorry I really couldn’t afford the fine at this situation, they said it’s their job they can’t do anything. Later when I was out of the mall, the security guard said, I can call RLP to negotiate about the fee. Also I’m probably moving to another city in 2 months, so if they want to take me to court but I didn’t receive any letters what should I do… and the security guy told me it’s worse as I traveled to this city and stealing stuff. I’m home now but feeling awful, wish people could give me some advice, thank you very much.
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Hello everyone.

 

Well I finally took the plunge and joined up mainly because I'm looking for some reassurance. I'm pleased to say that in relation to my own difficulty, it seems that I am following the right lines after reading some of the postings. I'm no expert and certainly not legally qualified but reasonably au fait with most procedures.

 

One thing that does trouble me is that I have seen a couple of postings suggesting that signatures should not be included on letters to DCAs. Can someone please explain why? Are you suggesting that some DCAs might be tempted to have a go at forging/copying signatures?

 

I have a long running dispute with Lloyds. I asked for copies of a CCA agreement last November and paid the £1.00 fee but before doing so I telephoned the CDR department who admitted that they had no copy of the agreement but refused to confirm this in writing. The only thing they would confirm is that the alleged debt relates to a loan or account (they can't confirm which) I opened on January 1st 1991. How I managed this on a Bank Holiday hasn't been explained. I sent them the CCA request and the £1.00 fee anyway and heard no more from them. Last week I received a letter from a DCA stating that they were acting on behalf of the company that the debt was sold to. I have written to Lloyds CDR stating that they are committing a criminal offence by failing to comply with my CCA request, also pointed out where I believe they are breaching OFT debt collection guidance and also threatening to complain to TS and/or the OFT in line with section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970. For good measure I also threatened them with a complaint to the FOS. Having browsed further postings, it never occurred to me that by not having a copy of the agreement they couldn't demonstrate that they had my consent under the Data Protection Act to pass my 'data' to the new DCA.

 

I sent a copy of this letter to the new debt collectors together with another CCA request and another £1.00 postal order. I also stated that I didn't accept that I had any liability or debt to the new 'owners'. However, I signed the letters that I sent.

 

For clarification, it's not statute barred because up until last year I was making payments. However Lloyds upped the ante by appointing debt collectors. When they threatened me with legal action I decided to ask for more information because after a nervous breakdown and clinical depression some years ago I really can't remember what the amount outstanding was for. It seems that they don't know either!

 

Maybe a moderator will move this posting to somewhere more appropriate if this isn't the right forum?

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Thread moved to Debt Collection Forum.

 

One thing that does trouble me is that I have seen a couple of postings suggesting that signatures should not be included on letters to DCAs. Can someone please explain why? Are you suggesting that some DCAs might be tempted to have a go at forging/copying signatures?

 

This is done as a precaution. There have been a few (and I mean literally a few out of the thousands of members that we have) instances where a photoshop special has been heavily suspected. It is not something I would lose any sleep over.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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Hi bounce

 

Just sticking my head around the door to say hi and welcome. I came here as a very frightened person a couple of months ago. Being here, reading posts and posting has changed all that.

 

I'm not an expert - I'm relatively new here - but surely, folk, if bounce has CCAd them an they have not complied then the debt is in dispute? So Lloyds should not be passing it on?

 

Without a valid CCA it is not enforceable.

 

In addition, if they will not say what this debt is for - why are you paying it? If I told you that you owed me money, would you just hand it over to me. I think there's a case for an SAR here -which costs £10, but would tell you everything. Then again (thinking out loud) without a valid CCA after 12+2 days the debt is not enfoceable.

 

Personally, I'm all for facing up to debt and paying what I owe. But I like to know that I owe it, and do not overpay.

 

I'd be tempted to SAR them, see what you owe and what is charges, the nmake an offer you can afford.

 

What does everybody else think?

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Any help and advice is offered in good faith, based solely on my own knowledge and on experience gathered from this site. I am not qualified to offer legal or financial advice, which you should seek from an expert before making any important decisions. My opinions are therefore offered without liability.

 

If I've been helpful, please click my scales. :-)

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Hi Bounce,

 

I wouldn't worry to much about the new DCA, if Lloyds have already admitted there is no agreement the DCA hasn't a hope, they will most likely close the account on their system and pass it back to Lloyds.

 

What I suggest you do is contact your local TS, Lloyds remain in default of the CCA request after 12 days of receiving it and after a further 1 month has passed they commit a summary criminal offence. I think pressure from TS and a strongly worded letter from you should be enough for them to acknowledge in writing they hold no agreement making the debt irredeemably uneforcable. Also mention to TS that Lloyds have breached the OFT Guidelines on debt collection by failing to halt all action while a valid dipute is in place.

 

If you think there are any charges on the account then also send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Lloyds to ascertain the full extent and begin claiming them back.

 

If you get hassled by the DCA just post up details and we can advise further

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

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All advice is offered freely & without prejudice

 

If my post has been useful to you please click the scales

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____________________________________________

All advice is offered freely & without prejudice

 

 

If my post has been useful to you please click the scales

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If you think there are any charges on the account then also send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Lloyds to ascertain the full extent and begin claiming them back.

 

This would be pointless if the charges are less than the sum owing on the account as the charges would be refunded to the account.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

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Hi Bounce,

 

I wouldn't worry to much about the new DCA, if Lloyds have already admitted there is no agreement the DCA hasn't a hope, they will most likely close the account on their system and pass it back to Lloyds.

 

What I suggest you do is contact your local TS, Lloyds remain in default of the CCA request after 12 days of receiving it and after a further 1 month has passed they commit a summary criminal offence. I think pressure from TS and a strongly worded letter from you should be enough for them to acknowledge in writing they hold no agreement making the debt irredeemably uneforcable. Also mention to TS that Lloyds have breached the OFT Guidelines on debt collection by failing to halt all action while a valid dipute is in place.

 

If you think there are any charges on the account then also send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Lloyds to ascertain the full extent and begin claiming them back.

 

If you get hassled by the DCA just post up details and we can advise further

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

____________________________________________

All advice is offered freely & without prejudice

 

If my post has been useful to you please click the scales

 

Hi Shane

 

Thanks for the reply. The new DCA claim to be working on behalf of the company that the alleged debt was sold to. So if anyone, they will pass it back to them I would have thought. I'm assuming that Lloyds sold it on in the knowledge they couldn't enforce it and it was purchased by a company who are willing to try all manner of pressure tactics to get a return on their 'investment'.

 

I'm not certain that an SAR would throw up any information about charges given that Lloyds CDR went back to my original branch to ask for more information after I first contacted them. Apparently all documnetation in relation to any accounts I held at the branch have long since been destroyed. I appreciate this may be a ruse to prevent me querying what the debt actually is but I don't think they have any information at all. They can't tell me whether it's a loan or an o/d but as both would have been regulated agreements under the CCA there would (or should) have been supporting documentation.

 

The new DCA has said that they will provide information if requested but all I'm interested in at the moment is a CCA agreement. If they manage to find one then I think I'd probably SAR them straight after they produced it.

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Hi Shane

 

Thanks for the reply. The new DCA claim to be working on behalf of the company that the alleged debt was sold to. So if anyone, they will pass it back to them I would have thought. I'm assuming that Lloyds sold it on in the knowledge they couldn't enforce it and it was purchased by a company who are willing to try all manner of pressure tactics to get a return on their 'investment'.

 

I'm not certain that an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) would throw up any information about charges given that Lloyds CDR went back to my original branch to ask for more information after I first contacted them. Apparently all documnetation in relation to any accounts I held at the branch have long since been destroyed. I appreciate this may be a ruse to prevent me querying what the debt actually is but I don't think they have any information at all. They can't tell me whether it's a loan or an o/d but as both would have been regulated agreements under the CCA there would (or should) have been supporting documentation.

 

The new DCA has said that they will provide information if requested but all I'm interested in at the moment is a CCA agreement. If they manage to find one then I think I'd probably S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them straight after they produced it.

 

It isn't by any chance Phoenix Recoveries on behalf of Marlin Financial is it? Phoenix can be a real nightmare I've found.

 

With regard to documentation there are differences in requirements depending on whether or not the debt was a loan or overdraft. Though both are regulated by the Act the latter is exempt from section v subject to an OFT Determination order, subsequently the creditor has no legal requirement to hold a credit agreement. However, IMO with overdrafts the creditor is required to of sent you notification of the general terms of the agreed overdraft when it was applied, ie Credit limit, repayments, rate of interest etc, this information (which I highly doubt they have) can be furnished by way of a SAR. Regardless though if they have admitted they haven't got any of the documentation relating to the debt they cannot enforce it.

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

 

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If my post has been useful to you please click the scales

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello again.

 

Well, I've now had a reply from Lloyds to my complaint. They have now confirmed in writing that "...we no longer hold a copy of your application due to the age of the account." The response failed to address any of the bank's failures under the OFTs Debt Collection guidance. Should I write back to require that these specific points are addressed or simply pass the matter to TS or do both and make a complaint to the FOS if the responses still aren't satisfactory?

 

The letter also states that "The rights and responsibilities to the account were sold to the agents....and therefore any questions relating to the account should be referred to them." If that's the case, if there is no copy of an agreement how would anyone know what "the rights and responsibilities to the account" were or are likely to be and, more importantly on what basis do/will they attempt enforcement as I am fully expecting that they won't let a simple matter of the law preventing them taking further action get in their way?

 

The fact that Lloyds sold the debt on doesn't detract from the fact that they didn't comply with my first CCA and appear to be in breach of the OFTs guidance too. Seems like an attempt at shifting the blame now?

 

Marlin still haven't replied to my CCA request but I now know that they can't because there isn't one! Their time limit will be up by the end of the month. Looking at some of the posts on here, the fact that they'll be committing an offence is no reason for them not to continue with their harassment!

 

Can I expect a spurious County Court Claim in the post in time for Christmas? seem quite probable given some of the postings in this forum.

 

At no point have Lloyds advised me that they were assigning the alleged debt; the first I knew was when Marlin contacted me and that was a full year after I sent my CCA to Lloyds. If there's no copy of the agreement, how do they demonstrate that they have my consent to pass on my details to a third party under the DPA?

 

Hope someone can offer some input?

 

Regards Bounce62

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Well I wouldn't worry as without an executed agreement any court action is futile and easily defended.

Now once Marlin write back to you simply send them a copy of the LTSB letter.

I have a few that would suit, just shout.

Until they wait and see what they have to say.

Be VERY careful whose advice you listen too

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