Drakes Bailiffs PCN Fine - attempted forced entry + caused damage, police refuse to act.

[seylectric]

At 8 a.m. this morning two guys came and I answered the door thinking it was a parcel delivery I'm waiting for.

 

This is for an unpaid (civil) parking fine.

 

The one I spoke to said he was "from" Northampton County Court. Anyway usual story, I told them I didn't have any money on me and they would have to come back later. I then tried to shut the door but the bailiff tried to push his way in. I got the door nearly shut but he now had his foot in it preventing me from closing it properly.

 

For a good ten minutes I had to physically keep my weight against the door as he continued to push back to try and force it open. as he pushed, the glass cracked in the door - it's a full length crack going across the span of the door.

 

My partner - who owns the prorperty - then phoned the police. In the meantime with the help of my hefty stepson we finally managed to force the door shut (his foot must have started to ache) and locked it.

 

The most arrogant officer I have ever come across came round, and basically gave me a lecture about paying my "fine" and told me that they could come back with a warrant and force entry with police assistance. However my point is this: My partner (and myself) asked the bailiff to be arrested for attempted forced entry, criminal damage and (possibly) impersonating an officer of the court.

 

The officer refused to act on this.

 

He then left and spent a good ten minutes talking to the bailiffs outside - these were from Drakes Bailiffs.

 

The officer then left and the bailiff came back to the door, shouted through the letterbox that I he had just checked (who can he check with at 8 am in the morning?) and that i also had an unpaid motoring fine, which is correct but that's not what he came for at the time.

 

I'll pay that one to prevent any further hassle as that is not a civil issue, it hasn't been paid yet as I haven't received any paperwork for it since I was in court last February.

 

He then pushed a card through the letterbox (below)

 

I know I will have to pay the motoring fine (presumably the HMCO Blackpool bit) but what do I do about the damage to the glass, attempted forced entry for the parking fine and the police refusing to act?

 

This is the second time the police have refused to act, they allowed bailiffs to illegally remove a car on HP six months ago even though they had no right to do so without a court order (action is being taken in the courts against the finance company with regard to that, see this thread:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs/90855-help-bailiffs-just-took.html

 

Is there nothing we can do to prevent this happening again? Are they acting illegally? At NO POINT were they inside the door until I tried to close it and he put his foot in the way. I thought they could not do this?

 

[EDIT].... Image showing personal details removed.

Please read forum rules before posting.

[seylectric]

Update: Looks like I'm up the creek wiithout a paddle. They do have a distress warrant for the outstanding motoring fine which enables them to break in and remove my goods according to National Debtline, no doubt they will take enough to cover the parking fine debt as well if I don't pay up.

 

I've contacted the local magistrates court regarding the motoring fine and they said they can't do anything because it's in the hands of the bailiffs. I'm willing to ring them and pay the magistrates fine but not the parking fine; the trouble is if I ring them with my card details they will take the lot (for both fines) without a doubt but I don't want them breaking in when I am not here

 

Any advice appeciated, I really don't want them breaking in and need to go out but can't see a way around it.

[alexteh]

Send them a bankers draft for the amount you are happy to pay? It's as good as cash and they can't take more than you let them. I think it costs about £20 to get a bankers draft these days though.

[seylectric]

That's not really the issue. I have bitten the bullet and phones Drakes head office to pay the outstanding magistrates court fine and they assure me that no other payment would be taken from my card. They also stated that I should not have been told that I would have to pay for both fines. However as a precaution I may now my bank to issue with with a new card and number, although I could really do without the inconvenience as I am away from home most days, only have the one debit card and use it several times a day.

 

I will be making written complaints to various bodies but I'm more concerned about my rights when the bailiffs have a distress warrant (irrelevant now I've paid), but can they or can't they force entry? My solicitor says not, National Debtline says they can, similar mixed opinions from C.A.B and others I've phoned so on.

 

I'm furious that the police refused to act on the offences comitted, and am left with the chocie of trying to claim for the damage in the small claims court in which case it's my word against theirs, but more importantly they are free to harrass other people in the same way having literally got away wth it thanks once again to the inefficiency of the police.

[tomtubby]

I will post a full reply later but in the meantime have sent a pm

[Guest 10110001]

Initial thoughts are you need to file a complaint with the IPCC against the police offers

for incorrectly classifying breaking & entering and criminal damage as civil matters

and for assisting an offender in the committing of a crime.

 

No good talking to the CAB they didn’t have a clue, but they meant well.

 

My partner had precisely what you had, early morning call & it was boot through the door.

 

I recovered the cost of building repairs from the council as it was their parking ticket

- which turned out to be invalid anyway.

The council fought it all the way right to the passing of Judgment.

 

The bailiff was not certificated

– expired a few months earlier

- and was arrested for common assault but later released without charge.

Because he used force on the door and causing injury to my partner’s foot that was holding it closed.

 

We have a nice large claim for personal injury against drakes which is set for trial in Jan 08.

Drake’s liability insurer has dropped out because a condition of cover was that the bailiffs must be properly certificated.

 

If you want a chat on how we got to the bottom of it, them PM me your number and we can talk further.

 

In the interim:

 

1. Get the door replaced and the property made safe, then ask Drakes to pay the bill and your costs,

and then automatically file a claim in the small claims track for the cost of repairs.

Don’t get involved in correspondence with Drakes; you’ll be fobbed off with excuses.

 

2. Show the document that threatens to get a locksmith and enter your home to the court that certificated him,

Tom Tubby will give you the details or you can check the public register. He could be defrocked.

[skyrider]

Hi Ive been threatened with untruths from Bailifs before, I think I'm fairly tough but they had me worried with a series of untruths I was concerened about what it might have done to a frail person, thios link may prvide some help [removed]

Edited April 16, 2016 by dx100uk
dx

[seylectric]

Thanks for the advice folks. I've been fending them off for years and have heard of the tricks they get up to.

 

 

Even so it has left me shocked at what they did; not so much that they tried to force their way in but having attempted to shut the door,

then continued to do so for a further ten minutes or so.

 

 

Such was the force used that my back and shoulder is killling me at the moment from the strain of trying to hold the door shut

- that's an indication of just how much force was used, it wasn't just a case of him leaving his foot in the door.

 

I'm more angry at the police though, who did nothing for the SECOND time this year after calling for their assistance.

To my mind an arrest should have been made for:

 

1. Falsely claiming to be an officer of Norhampton County Court

1. Attempting to forceably gain illegal entry (or whatever you call it)

2. Criminal damage - it seems they told the police that the glass broke when I slammed the door on his foot; not true,

it gave way a minute or so later after his constant pressure on the door.

 

 

In any event I had asked him to leave and he should not have been trying to focre his way in, that action alone led to the damage occurring.

[Guest 10110001]

Thanks for the advice folks. I've been fending them off for years and have heard of the tricks they get up to. Even so it has left me shocked at what they did; not so much that they tried to force their way in but having attempted to shut the door, then continued to do so for a further ten minutes or so. Such was the force used that my back and shoulder is killling me at the moment from the strain of trying to hold the door shut - that's an indication of just how much force was used, it wasn't just a case of him leaving his foot in the door.

 

See your GP straight away, it'll get a personal inury claim against Drakes underway.

[tomtubby]

There are so many questions that I have so here goes:

 

How much is the original fine for? This is important so that I can work out whether the charges are correct or not.

 

Are you receiving benefits? If you are, this debt could have been paid by deductions at a nominla rate from your benefits. Only certain benefits apply.

 

Under the contract with HM Court Service the bailiff MUST be certficated when enforcing a warrant for unpaid fines. You have posted the name of the individual bailiff and I have checked the name against the register. I have pm'd you on this !!!.

 

The bailiff ran a check to see if there are any further debts and found an unpaid PCN. If this is with their office then I am afraid that you now cannot pay the council. For Drakes to have details on their system wouldm mean that a warrant has already been issued by the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

 

For this reason it is VITAL that you telephone the TEC to establish the date the warrant was issued. You need to provide the PCN number to them . Could you post back here as it is posible that they cannot yet enforce the debt.

 

Due to there being approx: 1.2million unpaid Magistrate Court FINES , the courts have contracted with private bailiff companies to enforce payments. these debts. There is a major difference to the collect of these debts.

 

This is because, bailiffs acting on behalf of the Magistrates Court, to collect unpaid

FINES have the power to “enter and search any premises” for the purpose of executing a Warrant of Distress,

 

This was granted under Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4A of the Magistrates Courts Act 2004. This provision was also then inserted into the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 which was introduced last year.

 

As you have now paid this debt, the bailiff cannot now break into your home. You will need to address the matter of the unpaid PCN, but in that case the bailiff CANNOT break into your home.

[seylectric]

Ok first of all the important point here is that

 

 

the bailiffs called to collect the unpaid PCN, NOT the unpaid fine!!!

That's why I am so aggrieved at their attempts to force entry

- they are absolutely not allowed to do that for a civil debt,

I know that for certain!

 

They only became aware of the unpaid fine when they checked in,

at this point they were locked out and the police officer was inside.

 

 

The bailiff shouted through the letterbox that they had discovered I had an unpaid magistrates court fine and would be back with a locksmith.

 

That is precisely why I wanted to get that paid off and wasn't particularly worried about the parking debt.

 

The fine was issued (according to the magistrates court in) January 2006,

however this is a bit strange.

 

 

I first knew about this when I was called to court in August 2006 to answer why I had not paid the fine,

which was for failing to name the driver etc. I had not received any documentation and explained this to the court and it was overturned.

 

 

However the police took it back to court and I was convicted in February this year.

The fine was £150 + £60 costs. I have had no documentation since and in all honesty had forgotten about it.

 

 

The magistrates court told be today that a distress warrant had been issued back in April this year.

Drakes charged me £360 today even though they have never previously wirtten to me about this or called before in relation to this.

 

With regard to the PCN,

I know nothing about it but it was apparently issued in January this year.

The first I knew of it was a letter (not in an envelope) posted through the door on 5th October at 6.30 am,

the time on the letter issued by the same bailiff.

 

 

This gives a breakdown which says Fine(s) (even though it's not technically a fine) - £95.00.

Admin Fees (inc VAT if applicable) £13.86. Attendance costs (inc VAT if applicable) £175.94. Total £284.10.

 

The total appears to have risen today to £463.51 which given that this is only the second visit seems a lot to me.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify, the £463 quoted on the mailing today only relates to the parking fine debt, not the magistrates court fine.

[Guest 10110001]

Too many moderatrors editing my posts - forum has become over-moderated- so post is deleted!

[tomtubby]

The power to gain entry by FORCE is granted under the DVC Act.

 

The relevant section could so easily be missed and is point 5 of Schedule A and it states as follows:

 

 

5 An authorised officer may use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of a power conferred on him by this Schedule.”

[seylectric]

I'm dreadfully confused about all this. Various people are saying they can/can't force entry in respect of the parking fine which of course is a civil issue. I'm still none the wiser.

[Guest 10110001]

The power to gain entry by FORCE is granted under the DVC Act.

 

The relevant section could so easily be missed and is point 5 of Schedule A and it states as follows:

 

 

5 An authorised officer may use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of a power conferred on him by this Schedule.”

 

By force, and breaking & entering? whats the difference?

[tomtubby]

Bailiff's RELY on you to be confused so in this case they have scored the first point.

 

We receive many e-mails and calls form ADVICE AGENCIES on this so I will explain in easy language.

 

The right to break into a home is contained in Rule 5, Schedule A of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004. This was INTENDED to only be applicable in cases where police were attending a violent domestic incident and is therefore understandable.

 

There is also this provision within the Courts Act.

 

However it must be clearly understood that this right applies ONLY to the collection of unpaid FINES that were granted in the Magistates Court ONLY.

 

Many people are of the opinion that a Parking FINE is when they have not paid a parking ticket....this is WRONG.

 

A Parking FINE is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE such as driving whilst uninsured, driving without due care, speeding, not having a valid tax disc etc. Any conviction is a mater for the MAGISTRATES COURT.

 

An unpaid parking ticket is referred to as a PCN (Parking Charge Notice) and if left unpaid will eventually be referred to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) which is attached to Northampton Couty Court. The TEC are responsible for issuing the Warrant of Execution. This gives bailiffs the right to seize your goods to settle the debt. The bailiff DOES NOT have the right to force entry when pursuing unpaid parking tickets..........or Council Tax

[B.A.Ts]

I some times wonder if Drakes and other bailiff firms actually know the difference of this Tom, or in fact the police. Drakes seems to be a law unto themselves unlike others

[tomtubby]

All bailiff companies are very well aware that UNLESS they are pursuing an unpaid FINE that originated from the Magistrates Court they have NO RIGHT to force entry into your home. They hope however that you are unaware of their limited powers.

 

The Police however.........DO NOT HAVE A CLUE and it never ceases to amaze me that becuase of the number of times that they are called to homes and business because of a dispute with bailiffs, they really should be trained on what bailiff's can and can't do.

[Guest 10110001]

The police probably do have a clue but pretend they don’t, but it reminds me of something I personally witnessed only a few months ago.

I was in Bahrain a few months back and news went around the local media that several British workers had been arrested by the police for viewing pornography on the internet and had been remanded in custody pending trial. In most Islamic states handling pornography of any kind is serious stuff, you just don’t do it.

On my return to the UK I heard it in the news here too, but the British foreign office had told the British media that several British workers had been kidnapped by Islamic extremists and being held hostage. Reports of kidnapping and hostage taking of westerners are not uncommon in the UK media but there never a mention of the ransom, that’s because there isn’t one & they are just serving their sentence.

The British legal system contradict itself and with the government’s war on motorists, the motive is clearly financial than road-safety. Motorists don’t get a fair trial where muggers do.

We law-abiding members of the public aren’t concerned on having our car stolen or our homes burgled, its bailiffs that is the problem in today’s economy and it’s the government’s war on motorists that’s to blame for the rise in the number of bailiffs going round in vans engaging in licensed street crime.

[tomtubby]

The amount of revenue generated by local councils for parking offences is staggering but there is more to this.

 

In the past year over 4 million Liability Orders were granted for unpaid Council Tax and Business Rates. The court fee for a Liability Order was recently raised from 70p to £3.

 

The average amount of a council debt passed to bailiffs is £680 and for business rates it is £2,900

 

Each local authority is allowed to set their own fees that are charge to the debtor for obtaining the Liability Order. Typically most local authorities charge figures that range between £65 & £90 per debtor. The additional "fee" for businesses is far more. And yet the cost of the Liability Order is just £3 !!!

 

Simple arithmetic will show that spread over 4 milion Liability Orders, this is a huge amount of "additional" revenue going to local authorities. In most cases, if we take the average debt of £680, this represents an additional 10% increase in local authority revenue.

 

The Court Fee of £3 per Liability Order will of course go to the Treasury via the Magistrates Court.

 

With oustanding PCN's the figure is even greater. The Traffic Enforcement Centre charge a Court Fee of £5 per warrant issued. Again, this will be additional revenue to the Treasury.

[Guest 10110001]

I know we are off-topic now but no disprespect to the forum is intended.

 

This comment confuses me.

 

In the past year over 4 million Liability Orders were granted for unpaid Council Tax and Business Rates. The court fee for a Liability Order was recently raised from 70p to £3.

 

I am a partner in a business (a law firm oddly enough) but in Scotland. I appreciate England might have different rules.

 

My partnership holding is a 40% holding and is part of a Limited Liability Partnership, an LLP. This means my liability is limited to the business operations itself and I cannot be personally liable (criminal negligence excepted) for the actions I take as a partner - so how would a liability order work if I were to stop paying the business rates on our building?

[tomtubby]

My brain is too slow on this one at the moment. Great question !!!

[Renta Mouth]

Let’s clarify this for the record.

Breaking & Entering is allowed by bailiffs because they call it by another name, its called Entering by Force.

Criminal Damage resulting from entering by force is lawful because it becomes a civil matter, & it’s probably called something else – Civil Damage?

If the above is true then all it’s down to is a change of name, and therefore makes it legal? - Am I right?

When lawyer Michael Cox was ‘committed to prison’ for not paying child support, the newspapers in Equador and Peru carried the story (in Spanish) saying he was kidnapped by the corrupt British authorities who are demanding a ransom or payment of money.

This version of the story came about because the ECHR prohibits punishment without a fair trial to be unlawful, and the Magna Carta of 1215 prohibits imprisonment for debt and neither law has been repealed and therefore contradicts the Child Support Act.

With this so-called government war on motorists raging on then there is little motive to register your car at your home address. It puts it at risk of being subject to a government-authorised licensed burglary or certificated car thief.

[tomtubby]

Registering your car at a accomodation address is very common indeed. However there is a problem, in particular if you live or work in London or other big cities.

 

Many bailiff companies now rely upon using ANPR equipped vehicles that detect a vehicle registration that has unpaid parking tickets.

 

In this case, you would find great difficulty if you wished to file a Statutory Declaration to the effect that you did not receive the original PCN etc.

[Renta Mouth]

If your car is taken by baliffs ar the roadside in an ANPR sting, it makes no difference what address its registered at.