Template letter for SORN fines

[Spunkymonkey]

After reading your other posts I stumbled upon the following.

 

DVLA will issue an acknowledgement letter after 4 weeks to confirm you are no longer the registered keeper. If the acknowledgement letter is not received please contact DVLA [on]0870 240 0010

 

Which you picked up on, though I am not sure you are aware of the legal impact of this. I'm phoning now to ask that the penalty is dropped with immediate effect as this is about a big a blooper as they could have possibly make!

 

Like the fact that it's a request, not an instruction? And the fact that they're also asking you to pay for meeting their request? No, that really hasn't escaped me - in fact, all they can do is ask you to because the legislation doesn't mention acknowledgements at all.

 

To state (or imply) that you have a legal obligation to contact them - as they do on the SORN forms - is bordering on fraudulent if they later rely on it to coerce you into paying an LLP.

 

Haven't brought either of those up with them yet because (a) they really should know the legalities already and (b) I really want mine to go to court now.

 

There will also be a counter-claim for my time researching the matter. Probably won't succeed on that bit but it's worth putting it in - about £120 worth if by some miracle it succeeds

[sornappeal]

After reading your other posts I stumbled upon the following.

 

DVLA will issue an acknowledgement letter after 4 weeks to confirm you are no longer the registered keeper. If the acknowledgement letter is not received please contact DVLA [on]0870 240 0010

 

Which you picked up on, though I am not sure you are aware of the legal impact of this. I'm phoning now to ask that the penalty is dropped with immediate effect as this is about a big a blooper as they could have possibly make!

 

Just been on the phone to DVLA, the V5C was changed recently to stop this loop hole, but older V5Cs still contain this wording. The back of part 9 (sale to the motor trade) has got the right wording, but then again you would send this part away.The notes on SORN are worded incorrectly (My one had the old working, I'm luck because my bike is still at the garage that I sold it to and they are giving me a copy of the V5C). This is being put in front of the minister in charge on my request to be forwarded to the ICA as an update to my appeal (complaint!).

[Spunkymonkey]

Only thing with that is, no matter what they change the wording to, they don't have the power to amend the applicable law.

 

And the law makes no mention of an acknowledgement.......

[sornappeal]

Only thing with that is, no matter what they change the wording to, they don't have the power to amend the applicable law.

 

And the law makes no mention of an acknowledgement.......

 

Quite,

 

on a side note, If you have time to ammend any of the letters you have posted here into a more general form then please feel free to send them to me. You have a much better knowledge of the process than me and I wan the site to be the biggest pain in the bum for DVLA that it can be. Stock letters are one of the best ways of getting people to start creating a fuss.

 

Aslo I want to create a cheat sheet on different points to raise in an appeal (sorry complaint, its not an appeals process). Simply to highlight all the problems with the system.

[sornappeal]

I received an interesting letter from DVLA today, looks like my complaint is being bounced around a bit.

 

Dear Mr XXXXX,Thank you for your recent letter to this office requesting referral of your case for vehicle room MRU to the Independent Complaints Assessor (lCA), and my telephone call to you today following your contact with the Driver Vehicle Licensing Agency’s (DVLA) Centre of Operations in Swansea. Referrals to the ICA need the approval of the Chief Executive. ln order for Mr Shanahan to consider the matter, a |11 report is being prepared, outlining the facts of this case. He will of course have sight of all previous correspondence between you and the Agency. You will hear from Mr Shanahan in due course with a decision. Should the case be approved for referral, the ICA will contact you prior to writing her report. l can confirm that enforcement action has been temporarily suspended in this respect and the Late Licensing Penalty (LLP) at the reduced rate will be held whilst this case is being considered by Mr Shanahan.

As you are aware, prior to the receipt of your correspondence, the Rt Hon Jim Knight MP made representation on your behalf to the Secretary of State for Transport, the Rt Hon Geoff Hoon MP. As the matter has now been referred to the Department for Transport (DfT), a full response covering all submissions is being prepared and will be sent to Mr Knight’s Office.

This is normal procedure.

Your further comments in respect of the wording on the Vehicle Registration Certificate (V5C) have been noted and will be addressed in the response to Mr Knight.

I trust this approach will address all issues raised.

Yours sincerely

Mrs M Wright

Customer Services Maidstone

[crem]

If nothing else sornappeal you must be chuffed at the amount of work and number of people you are making run around within those useless departments.

[sornappeal]

If nothing else sornappeal you must be chuffed at the amount of work and number of people you are making run around within those useless departments.

 

Very happy, and if SORNappeal.com gets more people to give them the run around then i'd be happier than a dog with two *****

[letshelp]

subbing

[v8monkeyboy]

Me again .

 

*Sigh* - I wrote to the DVLA and Philips as suggested, and did everything you suggested Spunky, and informed them my husband is currently away. Sent the letters recorded delivery on Monday.

 

Got home today, to find a letter addressed to my husband, basically saying that their records showed him as the owner 3 months after we sold it, they are still showing that now in fact. The disposal details which he put in the first ketter (which they never responded to) will now be forwarded so the records can be updated. If he hasn't heard from them within 4 weeks to confirm this, phone them on.....

 

In addition to this, if he cannot produce a copy of the acknowledgement letter (which he obviously can't, because it was never sent, and they should know this because only now are they changing their system!) dated before 1.8.08 then he is still liable for the penalty.

 

They can find no reason to alter the original decision and therefore because he has missed the date to pay the penalty (sometime last year) they have now handed the case over to Philips and all further correspondence should go to them.

 

Oh for goodness sake! What do I do now? At no point have they acknowledged that I wrote the last letter and that he's not even here,and now it seems that they are simply high-handedly disregarding that fact that the documents were sent off.

 

Any ideas, anyone?

[Spunkymonkey]

Ok, did you tell the DVLA clearly that you / he deny liability and will not pay unless a court says you must? If you just asked them to reconsider then they will let the DCA deal with it.

 

Please be aware that the following is what I would do (and have done) myself based on reading of the applicable laws but I am not qualified and can't guarantee it's legally sound advice.

 

If I was in your situation and was definately willing for it to go to court, I would write two further letters as follows:

 

For the DVLA:

 

Dear ______

 

I refer to the LLP regarding vehicle xxxxxx. We do dont accept liability for this alleged penalty as we had notified you that we had disposed of the vehicle on xx/xx/xx.

 

We do not agree that, in law, we have any need to provide an acknowledgement letter from DVLA as confirmation of this. Until and unless you can prove otherwise in the County Court we will continue to deny liability and will not pay.

 

We have notified Phillips, who you have passed the matter to, of these facts. If you, or they as your agents, make any further attempt to obtain payment without a court hearing we will consider that act to constitute harassment under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 S1 and we will report it as such. We also reserve our right to pursue damages as a Civil remedy under S3 of the same Act.

 

Since we also believe you are misrepresenting a point of law, by requiring us to provide an acknowledgement letter from you when no such Statutory requirement exists, we will also report any further attempt to collect before proving the alleged debt by either DVLA or their agents, as fraud by false representation, as defined in the Fraud Act 2006 S.2

 

We therefore require you to immediately recall the alleged debt from Phillips and to refrain from any further attempt at collection until and unless you have proved liability in the County Court.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

xxxxx

For Phillips:

 

Dear ________

 

Your ref: xxx/xxxx

 

We have notified DVLA that we dispute this alleged debt and that we will not change our view until and unless they prove liability in court.

 

We therefore require you to return the case to DVLA immediately.

 

We will consider any further attempt to collect this alleged debt without such proof to constitute harassment under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 (the Act).

 

We reserve the right not to answer any further communication from you until and unless the alleged debt is proved. Any such communication will, however, be retained as evidence of harassment by your company and we reserve our right to pursue damages under S3 of the Act.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

xxxxxxxxx

 

Of course, depends how peed off you both are whether you want to go head-on like that.......

 

SM

[v8monkeyboy]

Spunky, you are a star! Thank you, it's nice to know I'm not on my own in dealing with this.

 

Yes, I did state clearly that liability had to be proved before anything would be paid, but they seem to have ignored it.

 

As far as I am aware my husband is very happy to go head to head with them (he seemed to suggest as much before he left). If, as everyone here has pointed out, and other sites have also shown they don't really have much fuel for their fire. The only worry I have is that he might get a CCJ against his name if it did go to court and we were to loose.

 

The other thing which annoyed me was that there was no acknolwledgement that he wasn't here, despite me stating this in the letter and signing it from me (I have a different surname).

 

Anyway, I'll get the letters sent off and see what happens.

 

Final question - the Interpretation Act 1978 is on our side sort of really isn't it?

 

Thanks!

 

T x

[letshelp]

The only worry I have is that he might get a CCJ against his name if it did go to court and we were to loose.

 

The ccj would only be recorded if you failed to pay the judgement straight away. So don't worry.

regards

[Spunkymonkey]

Don't worry about a CCJ - if the worst happens, it goes to court and you lose, then as long as you pay within the time the court requires, no CCJ is entered.

 

Remember, this is not something you owe and have defaulted on. It's something you don't agree that you owe in the first place. That's why the use of DCAs to "enforce" the payment is so wrong - by the same thinking, I could write to you tonight demanding the £10k you owe me from last year, then set Phillips on you without anything to prove you owed me anything. If you refused to pay and I then took you to court you wouldn't expect a CCJ, would you?

 

In short, as long as you pay promptly if the court confirms you owe it, there's no problem at all.

 

 

 

The Interpretation Act is definately on our side, and I can find absolutely nothing in either SORN or Registration statues that provides otherwise. As long as you're prepared to tell the court that you sent it, that's quite enough for you to have presumed receipt by them at the time.

 

There is certainly no legal requirement for DVLA to send confirmation of receipt so it would be legally absurd to require the registered keeper to produce such confirmation.

[v8monkeyboy]

Thank you 'letshelp'. Bring it on then!

 

T x

[v8monkeyboy]

And once again, Spunkymonkey, a big THANK YOU!!

 

Will get this sorted and sent tomorrow, and let you know how this goes.

 

T x

[Spunkymonkey]

For the avoidance of any doubt in my last post, please note that I have no idea who v8monkeyboy is in real life and they certainly do NOT owe me any money

[crem]

For the avoidance of any doubt in my last post, please note that I have no idea who v8monkeyboy is in real life and they certainly do NOT owe me any money

 

If you don't know who v8monkeyboy is, how can you be so sure they don't owe you money?

[sornappeal]

There is certainly no legal requirement for DVLA to send confirmation of receipt so it would be legally absurd to require the registered keeper to produce such confirmation.

 

Nicely put, I had this conversation with the high up at DVLA, who got fed up with me and said out right that they don't have to send out acknowledgement slips. I replied that they bloody well do if they are going to fine people if they cannot produce them. She pretty much shut up then.

[detjo]

Hi All

 

Another new body here, so hello everyone

 

Quick advice if i may request..

 

I received a letter from DVLA saying i had failed to declare SORN and of course an £80 fine.

I filled in the 'I declared it' part of the letter and sent it back with a copy of an email i received from them at the time of declaring SORN (dated about 3 days before it was due to expire).

They wrote back saying thanks for the proof etc. and no further action will be taken.

Then, approx 2 weeks later they wrote again basically saying: "We cant find the transaction on our servers and there is an inconsistancy in the email. Please pay the fine"

 

Surely they cant do this if they have already stated [in writing] they are accepting my email and no furhter action will be taken?

 

Any advice please?

 

--------

Cheers

Derek

[crem]

datjo, tell them to get lost (in the nicest possible way of course ) or see you in court, at which time you will be happy to show the magistrate your e-mail and their acknowledgement letter.

[buzby]

The DVLA email is just in plain text, here's my reply;

 

===================================================

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED EMAIL - PLEASE DO NOT REPLY AS EMAILS

RECEIVED AT THIS ADDRESS CANNOT BE RESPONDED TO.

Confirmation of Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN)

Thank you for using DVLA Vehicle Licensing Online (DVLA Vehicle Licensing Online | Home).

Your SORN declaration has been successful.

Reference Number: 9062 xxxx 7322 xxxx

Vehicle Registration Mark: ??????

Application made on: 30/11/2008 20:09:44

SORN Period: 12 months

The SORN confirmation letter should arrive in the post within 4 weeks.

Please save or print this email confirmation.

Just to confirm that you will be entered into the prize draw unless you have chosen not to enter the Prize Draw by ticking the appropriate box during this transaction. Details of winners will be posted on DVLA :: Prize Draw Microsite

=====================================================

 

Now, if your email looked essentially similar to this with your own details, it is actually the email header info that will prove without doubt that it originated from them, so your response would be to provide the header info and state that you reject without reservation their assertion that you did not SORN your vehicle.

[v8monkeyboy]

Hi all,

 

Just a quick update. The vehicle case which was being bounced over to the DCA, has now ended! Woo hoo!

 

Got a letter in the post this morning to me, telling me that they can't deal with me as I'm not the registered keeper, and another letter to my husband saying that as he's serving with the armed forces, and isn't here, they have let the matter drop and it is now closed.

 

As for the 2nd vehicle, I have received a letter (well my husband has) stating that they have never received a reply to their original letter. However, they have, and it is proven, as this letter was sent by recorded delivery, and has been tracked to their offices.

 

I have sent the nice lady a letter telling her (nicely) to go and hunt for it, and also that no money will be paid until the debt is proven in court. Incidentally, all through their letter, they call the offence an alleged offence, yet still ask for money.

 

I'll let you know how I get on.

 

T x

[v8monkeyboy]

Hi Buzby,

 

I really wouldn't worry. Like Crem says, let them take you to court. As soon as you show the magistrate the e-mail and the letter from them saying no further action will be taken, they'll be booted out of court - they can't tell you one thing, then change their minds.

 

If, in the meantime, they try to bully you into paying the £80 with a debt collection agency, simply use the letters Spunkymonkey has put up on here. They are well written, and seem to do the trick.

 

Oh, and only communicate by letter with them, and send everything recorded delivery.

 

Let us all know how you get on .

 

T x

[Spunkymonkey]

Great news, V8 - one down, one to go. Thanks for the comments on the letters, btw, and it's nice to see that even they are starting to use the alleged bit. Maybe it's started turning up in so many letters they receive that it's starting to rub off

 

Strikes me that's the best way to tackle them long-term. Find a strategy that works, and can't be beaten without a change in legislation, then get as many people as possible using it. If word spreads enough, sooner or later the whole (corrupt) system fails for them.

 

A bit like what's happened with bank charges over the past couple of years, except a Govt department couldn't afford the legal costs or publicity of mounting the challenges that the banks have so it should be even easier......

[sornappeal]

Well I got another letter from DVLA today, they have refused to put my complaint to the ICA (big surprise) along with a lot of utter waffle (including crap about my complaint being handled impartially, which is just plain impossible). I shall post it here and on the site asap.

 

No mention was made about the mistake in wording on the V5C though I am not sure that it will get me off. Though if I am clever I think I should be able to put enough of a case together to win in court.

 

Now do I risk £130 or pay the £40?