Give up? No chance!

[claudiaamber]

Have just started attempting to reclaim money from Natwest on my partner's account (plenty more to follow suit). My partners statements were all over the place and we are also planning a house move making it even harder to dig around the boxes etc. As a result, last week we went into the bank with the first preliminary letter claiming £180 from just the past three months (hoped as it was just a small amount that they would pay up and then we could hit them for the rest - no such luck but hey it was worth a try, we could do with a little bit of cash right now!). Since then, although there are still a few statements missing, we have calculated that they have charged him over £1500 since he opened his account about 5 years ago. Today we received a letter re. the £180 offering us £132 in full and final settlement provided we do not attempt to make any further claims for any other charges they have applied (ooh these guys are so funny... ). It is a fairly standard letter which, having read around the forum, appears to have been received by others in a similar position (although ours is from the branch manager and we are honoured enough to have had a real signature ).

 

The question now is...do we continue with the LBA immediately for the £180 and send a separate prelim. letter for the remaining amount? - or do we add the full amount up and send a further letter asking for the full total including the £180 and giving them another 14 days to respond? Could our choice here affect how the matter proceeds or is it just up to us as to which option we would prefer to take?

 

I know...probably should have just waited and done it in one go in the first place:oops: . Whichever is the best option we hope to be writing the letter asap so anyone there who could give us a quick answer? ...would be very very much appreciated - thank you!

[callumsgran]

Hi and welcome just add it all on your lba, you dont need to keep sending prelims in ok?

[claudiaamber]

P.S. Judging by balance, it looks like another charge or 2 have been added since the letter too...

[Michael Browne]

I would send the LBA for the total amount briefly explaining that this figure now goes back 6 years rather than 3 months

[claudiaamber]

Hi and welcome just add it all on your lba, you dont need to keep sending prelims in ok?

 

- Even though there's about another £1300 on top of the £180 asked for? (sorry just want to clarify and make sure I understand correctly)

[claudiaamber]

Hi,

 

V. quick update - sent the LBA detailing charges and interest dating back since the account opened (approx. £2000!!!) - received a reply from Stuart Higley today (who else?!) which appears to be the standard template response and withdraws their original offer of £132. I'm guessing as they have now replied to the LBA that we don't have to wait until the 14 days is up to issue our application to the court? - or should we wait just in case to show that we're being reasonable?

 

Also, prelim. sent for my NW account asking for charges taken so far (only £76) and suggesting politely that any charges due to be debited over the next month are not taken. Received a response today offering £104 in full and final settlement. I have to check that this covers the £76 plus charges which haven't yet been debited but which are due (I think it does), in which case I am happy to agree to this settlerment but I am a little concerned about the wording on their acceptance note - it says:

 

'I accept the sum of £104 as full and final settlement of all claims I have relating to charges' and there is then a space for me to sign and date.

 

What bothers me is whether this would then mean that I cannot claim for any other charges that they may take in the longer term future. Also, as this is all that is written on the page, it does not specify the account to which the acceptance note refers. Although I only have one account with NW and do not intend to open another, of course I cannot predict the future and if I did open another account I would not want them to be able to use this acceptance note in relation to it. I would therefore like to type out my own aceptance note, adding the account number and adding some additional wording on the end of theirs stating:

 

'against my account to date'

 

I assume there's nothing wrong with doing that but just wanting to check...anyone? (also, of course, if there is anything else I should be concerned about before signing my name on the dotted line please let me know - thank you!)

[Michael Browne]

I'd wait the extra few days, as you say, to be reasonable.

 

Yes, write your own letter as you suggest

[claudiaamber]

OK, 14 days is up re. charges against my partners account and I am completing the Moneyclaim online form.

 

re. the 8% interest - the statement which the site advises I use about this is:

 

'The claimant claims interest under section

69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the

rate of 8% a year from (date)

of (amount) and also interest at the same

rate up to the date of judgment or earlier

payment at a daily rate of {enter the daily

rate of interest}.'

 

How do I calculate the daily rate? I have read all around the forum but can't find anything specifically on this point. Do I calculate 8% of the total amount outstanding today including the 8% which has already accrued? Or do I not include the 8% which has already accrued? Presumably when it refers to the daily rate I am supposed to enter a figure in pounds and pence rather than a percentage?

 

Help!! I'm really confused and I need to finish this quick as I have a job interview this week and I'm moving house so I've got so much to do that I'm a bit all over the place!

[claudiaamber]

Have I made a mistake? (Sorry to post another query so soon after the last but...)

 

I have read on another thread that the reason you should initially go for a subject access request is to stop the bank attempting to claim that there was a manual intervention when you were charged which caused the cost of each charge to be greater than the cost if the charges were applied automatically. I did not initially make a SAR as I had enough past statements to calculate the charges and interest - should I have done so anyway? I'd like to clarify this before submitting the Moneyclaim in case I've made an error - can anyone help?

[donnimick]

Hello Claudiaamber, I've done things exactly as you have and so I will be interested in the feedback you receive to your question,

Paddy

[Michael Browne]

Your right about the SAR and manual intervention, but the banks never confirm nor deny it, so it's not critical

 

Example of POC which may need tweaking to fit:

 

Claimant has account (A/C No) with Defendant from (Date a/c opened)conducted on their standard terms and conditions. Claimant is claiming the return of (£0.00 = amount claimed) taken by Defendant in charges over (X) years. The Defendant's charges are a disproportionate penalty and therefore unenforceable as they are contrary to common law. They are also invalid under the Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977 s.4 and under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.Para.8 and sch.2.1.e.

In the event that the charges are not a penalty they are unreasonable within the meaning of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 s.15. Defendant has declined justification of charges despite repeated requests. Claimant claims interest under Sec.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% a year from(Date of 1st charge) to (Date of filing claim) of (£0.00 =8% spreadsheet calculation) and also interest at same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of (£0.00p = Amount claimed x 0.00022).

Come back and askk if you're stuck on anything.

[claudiaamber]

Thank you Michael Browne! - just the answer I was looking for! I had most of it from the FAQ's but your version helped me fit it within the word limit. The answer re. calculating the daily rate was as I'd suspected but I felt uncertain enough to not want to complete the claim form until I was sure. As you answered so promptly I have now been able to submit the claim online and I now await the next step with anticipation...***watch this space!***

[claudiaamber]

Help!!!! - Running out of time!

 

Have received defence from Cobbetts and Part 18 request on 25th August, also received allocation questionnaire from the court on 29th August and I have until Sunday (!) to return in to the court with the relevant fee. I've been unexpectedly very busy with something else very important and have been unable to turn my attention to this until now. I understand how to complete the allocation questionnaire, that seems quite simple. I also understand that I do not have to reply to the CPR part 18 request and have found other peoples letters in response to this on the forum but I don't understand if I need to do anything re. the defense other than acknowledge it. I have lost my internet connection when I moved house and have managed to access this for a very short time. I've been searching the forum as fast as I can but can't find a clear answer to my question - PLEASE someone help quick!

 

I am hoping I can get back on the internet for a short time tomorrow but I am unable to get a connection for very long so I'm hoping someone can answer this one clearly in time. I know there's probably an answer somewhere on here already but can't find it in such a short time period. Have found the rbrears thread but it is referring to an amended particulars of claim - not sure if I need to do this or not and if so whether I have to make another application to the court and pay a fee or whether I just send a letter like the rbrears one to Cobbetts and the court.

 

In case anyone needs to know in order to answer my query - I applied via MCOL using the above advice and the defence I have received appears to be the stock defence they send to everyone (9 points in total ending 'Save as hereinbefore appears the Defendant joins issue with the Claimant on his claim(s) and denies that it is liable to the Claimant as alleged or at all.'). No time to type it all out here - will hopefully log on again tomorrow to find some help!

 

Thank you!

[Michael Browne]

Dear Sir or Madam:

 

Claim No: XXXXX

 

I acknowledge receipt of your defence & request for further information and clarification.

 

I anticipate that the claim would be allocated to the small claims track and would not then expect to have to deal with a Part 18 request since these are specifically excluded under Part 27 unless the court specifically orders me to do so of its own initiative

 

Furthermore I consider that the CPR part 18 request is intimidatory and I intend to bring the intimidation to the notice of the court.

 

However, for clarity, I enclose a schedule of charges and I confirm the charges I am claiming were applied to the following account:

 

Account Name: XXXXX

Account numbers: XXXXX

Sort Code XXXXX

Amount XXXXX

 

Yours sincerely

[claudiaamber]

I've got this letter but is that all I need - do I not need to respond to the specific points made in their defence? (Sorry if this seems a stupid question but don't want to mess it up now I've got this far)

 

Thank you!

[Michael Browne]

No, the time to reply to their specific points is in front of a judge. By all means prepare for that eventuality, but at this point you should never volunteer any more information than you have to.

[claudiaamber]

Thank you Michael Browne - letter to Cobbetts and AQ went in post on Wednesday, both included schedule of charges etc.

 

This morning I have received another letter from Cobbetts -

 

'We note your comments on our Request for Further Information. It is our client's contention that your Particulars of Claim did not properly particularise your claim. For example, our client cannot properly defend a claim where you have not given the details of each charge you claim is disproportionate and unreasonable.

 

The court is bound by an overriding objective to deal with cases justly and ensure that parties are on an equal footing. It was clearly the case that our client could not respond to your claim where you did not provide sufficient particulars. Our client therefore objects to your allegation that the Request is intimidating.'

 

I have supplied them with the schdule of charges including all acount details - name, number, sort code etc. I used the template POC as you provided and it all looks clear to me. I am aware that others have received a letter like the one I had this morning however not sure about whether they used the same sort of template which I used and whether they have supplied their schedule.

 

Presumably I have actually done all I can to 'particularise' my claim - should I just send a letter back saying I believe I have done so and include another schedule? Should I send a copy of their letter to the court to demonstrate that they are intending to intimidate me? - not really sure what else I could provide them with to be honest...

[Michael Browne]

Presumably I have actually done all I can to 'particularise' my claim

 

Exactly. It's a standard reply to try and un-nerve you and make you think you've done something wrong. You haven't.

 

Ignore it and sit tight. Settlement letter will be along soon.

[claudiaamber]

OK - it's all happening now and I'm getting really nervous -

 

Firstly, Cobbetts didn't return their allocation questionnaire on time and were given a further 7 days. During this period they sent us an offer for £1,500 (about half of the full amount) which we have ignored. They got their allocation questionnaire in at the last minute before the 2nd deadline but now we have received a judgement from the court to say that the case is unsuitable for the small claims track and we have been given a date of 20th Nov for an allocation hearing - does this mean we're going to the mercantile court? The allocation hearing is set for 30 minutes which is the longest hearing I've ever had to deal with - what should we be doing next? - can't find anything of use in the Patricia Pearl small claims book - help!!

[Michael Browne]

I doubt this is being transferred to Mercantile, the judgement would have specifically mentioned this, but equally I don't understand why it's unsuitable for small claims since your claim is £3000ish, well under the limit

 

Unless the judge wants it in fast track where there is disclosure

[zootscoot]

Do you have a copy of their allocation questionnaire as it maybe that they have requested fast - track to intimidate you.

 

Basically the fast track means your case will be heard in the County court and you will be liable for the court costs if you lose. You need to attend the allocation hearing to put your arguments for being retained in the small claims court. You must also request that if the case is transferred to county court it should be on the basis that costs should not be awarded against you.

 

Follow the link below for further guidance.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/7223-sandy-gmac-rfc.html

 

All the best

 

Zoot

[claudiaamber]

I have a copy of the allocation questionnaire forwarded from Cobbetts solicitors prior to the first deadline they were given for it but I'm pretty certain (not completely 100% as I don't have it here) that they asked for small claims too. However it is of course possible that they amended this prior to sending it to the court in time for the extended deadline they were given - am I able to check this with the court or am I not allowed to see the AQ they have submitted unless they show it to me?

[claudiaamber]

Zoot - thank you, the thread you have pointed me to looks useful although I'm still concerned about the mercantile court given that on the order we've just received from the judge re. the allocation hearing he states something about considering a test case trial and talks about how he has seen a number of these cases in recent months...I reckon this is the judges decision, not Natwest...

 

Anyhow, I will bring paperwork with me to work tomorrow night and copy out the details on here - I had been expecting to find more instances of other people in this situation and therefore didn't think I needed the paperwork with me tonight...oops!

[claudiaamber]

OK so I have the paperwork here now -

 

Cobbetts sent me a copy of their allocation questionnaire on 14th Sept. with a covering letter stating 'we...enclose a copy of our client's Allocation Questionnaire which has today been filed at court' however it was not filed at court until after the 17th at the earliest and the 26th at the latest (due to an extension of the dealine which the court gave them as a result of them not filing it before the 17th). Unless they actually filed an amended version, they have agreed that small claims is the most suitable track. Everything here appears to be in order although they have left the questions about an expert blank.

 

I have a General Form of Judgement or Order dated 26th Sept. which states -

 

'Upon the filing of Allocation Questionnaires

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT

 

Fix for allocation / directions hearing with a time estimate of 30 minutes.

 

REASON

 

Claim and Defence are of a type and are in the form I have seen several times in recent months - a sufficient number to raise the question whether any 'co-ordinated' case management is being contemplated e.g. test case trial. I appeal process - the experience of credit live litigation comes to mind to the extent that this or any particular case may be authority for others. Small claims track is not obviously the appropriate track.'

 

Please note that I have typed in the above exactly as I see it on the order, for example the section 'I appeal process' is written like that on the order - possibly a mistype by the court or a section missing here?

 

Attached to the order is a letter which tells me when the hearing is to take place etc. (20th Nov. so some way off) and at the bottom it says -

 

'Please Note: This case may be released to another Judge, possibly at a different court'

 

What do people make of this? Mercantile or Fast track? Has anyone else received anything like this before? - really confused and could do with some advice about what to expect next and how I should react - help!!!

[zootscoot]

Sounds like it could be Mercantile but you will not find out until 20th. The best thing to do would be to send a letter to the court asking to remain in small track or at least that costs will not be awarded against you if it does go multi -track. Something on the lines of which the Mercantile claimants have used would be appropriate.

 

In the mean time keep watching the Mercantile threads and hope they pay out. Natwest will want to avoid multi -track more than you and some of the claims awaiting Mercantile are paying out pretty sharpish.

 

If you would like I can ask a mod to transfer your thread to the Mercantile forum, although you might want to sit tight til you find out for sure.

 

All the best

 

Zoot