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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Help me please, C2C Rail Prosecution Departement


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Hi there,

 

On June 20th 2011, i was caught without the correct ticket and was spoken to by 2 inspectors who took down my details.

 

I offered to pay and the penalty fare but they said that was not available to me and C2C would write to me.

 

I have very upset and distraught after this as I know I have done wrong.

 

I have been awaiting a letter and I have phoned C2C twice but was told to await a letter as there was a delay and they were short-staffed.

 

Today I received a letter dated 14th July 2011 and it stated 2nd LETTER. I have never received a 1st Letter.

 

They want me to pay £293.50 now by 21st July 2011.

 

i cant pay by then, so i have handwritten a letter to them this morning and handed it into Benfleet Station, stating I have never received the 1st letter,

nor was I offered the chance to pay a penalty fare and if they still want me to pay the £293.50 to allow me until the end of the month at least.

 

They will not accept phone calls, nor will they accept debit cards. Only cheques and postal orders.

 

My bank no longer has cheques books as they were going to be defunct, yet C2C do not accept chqs on the station.

 

I have done wrong, I know, but the amount is high , yet i dont want it to any further, i am willing to pay whatever is required but it is a lot and I have been given less then a week to pay.

 

Is there anything else I can do?

 

Please help, I am deeply stressed and upset.

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Hi there,

 

On June 20th 2011, i was caught without the correct ticket and was spoken to by 2 inspectors who took down my details.

 

I offered to pay and the penalty fare but they said that was not available to me and C2C would write to me.

 

I have very upset and distraught after this as I know I have done wrong.

 

I have been awaiting a letter and I have phoned C2C twice but was told to await a letter as there was a delay and they were short-staffed.

 

Today I received a letter dated 14th July 2011 and it stated 2nd LETTER. I have never received a 1st Letter.

 

They want me to pay £293.50 now by 21st July 2011.

 

i cant pay by then, so i have handwritten a letter to them this morning and handed it into Benfleet Station, stating I have never received the 1st letter,

nor was I offered the chance to pay a penalty fare and if they still want me to pay the £293.50 to allow me until the end of the month at least.

 

They will not accept phone calls, nor will they accept debit cards. Only cheques and postal orders.

 

My bank no longer has cheques books as they were going to be defunct, yet C2C do not accept chqs on the station.

 

I have done wrong, I know, but the amount is high , yet i dont want it to any further, i am willing to pay whatever is required but it is a lot and I have been given less then a week to pay.

 

Is there anything else I can do?

 

Please help, I am deeply stressed and upset.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to offer a great deal of encouragement I'm afraid. The rail company do not have to offer an

 

Firstly, when a traveller is found to be in breach of the rules, the rail company do not have to allow any opportunity to pay at a later date. If there is sufficient eveidence to suggest that prosecution is warranted, then they may proceed accordingly.

 

You can only write and advise that you did not receive any 'first letter' and ask for a copy of that letter and the right to respond to that before C2C apply any financial penalty.

 

However, there is one thing that I find a little unusual in this one and that is that your post suggests that C2C have immediately offered an opportunity to pay their costs & fares as an alternative to prosecution without having received any representation from the traveller.

 

If you still want to pay, but are unable to do so, perhaps writing the letter that I suggested and once you get the reply to that, send a further letter with a request for delay in order to allow time to pay might help.

 

I suggest that you send your letters by recorded delivery.

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I want to pay and ive been awake all night and i can pay by next Friday,but im very upset that I never got the first letter.I have handed in a letter personally to Benfleet station telling them this yesterday.Its a lot of money, but Its what I deserve and I Just want to get it out of the way.I called a helpline and they 7 days payment is unfair and it should have been 21 days, which I would have accepted as they have stated they want it by post and do not accept debit cards. They also stated the amount they want is high and if went to court, they would get less. I just want to get it clear b4 that stage.If I had received the first letter, I would have paid it by now and moved on and learnt my lesson.Stressed to the eyeballs

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to offer a great deal of encouragement I'm afraid. The rail company do not have to offer an

 

Firstly, when a traveller is found to be in breach of the rules, the rail company do not have to allow any opportunity to pay at a later date. If there is sufficient eveidence to suggest that prosecution is warranted, then they may proceed accordingly.

 

You can only write and advise that you did not receive any 'first letter' and ask for a copy of that letter and the right to respond to that before C2C apply any financial penalty.

 

However, there is one thing that I find a little unusual in this one and that is that your post suggests that C2C have immediately offered an opportunity to pay their costs & fares as an alternative to prosecution without having received any representation from the traveller.

 

If you still want to pay, but are unable to do so, perhaps writing the letter that I suggested and once you get the reply to that, send a further letter with a request for delay in order to allow time to pay might help.

 

I suggest that you send your letters by recorded delivery.

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Its not clear what exactly you are asking ?. You have been given an offer to settle out of court, which most people would suggest you take, can you not borrow the money somehow ?. If not then a letter explaining your circumstances (why you cant pay, you are unemplyed, ill, etc) and this may have some success.You could of course let it run its legal course which by the sounds of it would end up with a fine, perhaps less than the £290 quoted but would land you with a criminal record, perhspas someone sle can explain the seriousness (or not) of a record obtained in this way ?I'm unaware of any banks that have duiscarded with cheque books completely, I recently obtained one from my main two banks.Andy

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Yes andydd is right, banks will still issue you a cheque-book if you ask, they just tend not to auto-issue them when you cash your fifth-from-last or whatever it used to be.

However if you're brassic then I don't see that cheques etc are really relevant... you can either pay, or not!

 

Bizarre idea handing a letter at Benfleet station pal! I know you're not a millionaire (probably!!!) but couldn't you afford a stamp?

If you handed it in at Benfleet, then it will probably end up in BEIRUT....

 

...i.e, Laindon!!! LOL

:whoo:

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My bank no longer send out Chq books. Benfleet station is where C2c Rail Prosecution is based, thats why i went there. So not silly at all.I have rec'd a further letter stating i can pay now by 31st July - im going to do this, its not worth the hassle and going to court.C2c have lied in the letter and made asumptions which i showed a solictor and they wouldnt get away with it although i have done wrong in the 1st instance and would still get punished.The inspector took old tickets away from me which were used accordingly, I have been told that under no circumstances was the inspector allowed to take these with out BTP involvement as it was nothing to do with these. The fare C2c is totally not relevant to the crime as they have assumed i have done more wrong. I could go to court and fight but i still would end up with a criminal record as i have done wrong on one day only.C2c shouldnt lie or make assumptions on anyone. its not acceptable in 2011. The sooner C2c lose their franchise the better.

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HHmm..Im not sure your rantings are going to help.............C2C have had their franchised extended as they generally provide a good service, its NXEA who are lsoing theirs as their service is below par to say the least.Andy

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The inspector took old tickets away from me which were used accordingly, I have been told that under no circumstances was the inspector allowed to take these with out BTP involvement as it was nothing to do with these.

 

I do not know where you are getting this kind of advice, but that is absolute rubbish. All rail tickets remain the property of the rail company at all times and technically, should be handed in at the end of a journey. Of course there isn't a facility for collection at most stations these days so that condition is pretty well ignored however, used rail tickets may be withdrawn and collected by rail staff. If a traveller needs a receipt to claim expenses, then you can get one at the time of purchase of the ticket.

 

British Transport Police do not need to be involved in questioning or prosecution of these cases at all.

 

If you are being advised by a solicitor that the C2C staff have 'lied' ( your word there), why would you want to pay them anything??

 

In my experience, any Solicitor worth their salt who genuinely believes that to be the case would be suggesting that you pursue the matter vigorously.

 

As Andy pointed out your rant is entirely misplaced, but I hope you feel better for it.

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They are a dreadful network.Sky high fares in proportion to rest of uk and other networks.Overcrowded trains, unclean toilets. uncomfortable seating.Train delays. Rude staff and poor customer service.I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement. I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week. On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.For this is have a fine of £293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.

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Hello again Karl. Is the solicitor [or the other people] advising you a specialist in rail prosecutions? Fwiw, Old-Codja has considerable experience in this and hasn't been wrong AFAIK.

 

Whatever you think of C2C, if they're legally in the right, I suspect there isn't much you can do.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement.

 

I'm sorry, but that is complete 'tosh'. If that were the case, I can see many thousands of cases that I and other users of this forum have personal experience of going back before the Courts. That should keep a few people in work for a bit!

 

I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week.

 

They remain the property of the rail company.

 

On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.

 

So, it appears that you purchased a ticket for a shorter journey than that you were actually making thereby failing to pay the proper fare due.

 

For this is have a fine of £293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.

 

No, you have NOT been 'Fined'. Only the Courts have the authority to impose fines. You seem to have been given an opportunity to pay an administrative fee to close the case without Court action. You don't have to take it, you don't have to pay and can have the evidence tested by the Magistrates.

 

I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.

 

Not if you are correct in your assertion that C2C staff have been untruthful in presenting concocted evidence in order to bring about the prosecution. If the Court believed that to be the case you would come away squeaky clean and it would prove extremely expensive and damaging for C2C.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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They are a dreadful network.Sky high fares in proportion to rest of uk and other networks.Overcrowded trains, unclean toilets. uncomfortable seating.Train delays. Rude staff and poor customer service.I have been told by a solictor and other parties that under no circumstances can a rail ticket be used to incriminate against anyone apart from a season ticket after the date has expired, without BTP involvement. I had other tickets on me to/from Benfleet where I worked the previous week. On day in question i worked in London and thats where i went wrong. I purchased a ticket to basildon instead of Barking.For this is have a fine of £293.50 - very high - as C2c have assumed I have committed more offences. I have not.I could go to court to fight this but i have still committed one offence, so i would still end up in trouble.

 

I'm not one to defend railway companies but you really are spouting rubbish, I travel on C2C every day and have myself been prosocuted many years ago for a similar offence. Experts like Old-Codja have told you that your solicitor is spouting rubbish, there doesnt need to be BTP incolvement and its really not clear what you are talking about, ticket inspectors are perfectly entitled to take tickets from you because they remain property of the railway company.

 

Now while C2C are not cheap they compare reasonably well with other companies, a return to London from Westcliff costs me £15.40 whilst a ticket from Prittlewell (NXEA) (actually my nearest station) to London would cost £24.50 so how can you say C2C are the most expensive ?

 

You try and find another localcommuter line that has air con..the seats seem fine to me and whilst I have seen overflowed toilets this is very rare and mostly late at night, as for delayus, they are time and time again the No.1 most punctial line !....having travelled on them for many years, they are not perfect, but their punctiality is quite impressive.

 

As fore rude staff, I certainly have met some rather unhelpful staff but then again Ive been helped by friendly helpful staff, like life, there is a cross section of people !

 

Andy

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Thank you for your replies and i appreciate them. Very helpful and i respect your comments.

 

Thank for your help. I will pay the fine from C2c for fares and admin fee and learn from my experience and never do it again.

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http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/without-prejudice.html

 

Without abandonment of a claim, privilege, or right, and without implying an admission of liability.

 

(1) When used in a document or letter, without prejudice means that what follows (a) cannot be used as evidence in a court case, (b) cannot be taken as the signatory's last word on the subject matter, and © cannot be used as a precedent.

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That applies to Civil Procedures, not criminal offences.

 

 

But surely its meaning its roughly the same whether used in civil or criminal cases ?. It generally means that the enclosed letter isn't definate and cant be used in court of proof of acceptance or an offer, (i.e you cant later say, but C2C offered to drop the case if i paid £x).

 

It can be used for example to make a suggestion of an offer or a settlement without it being a legally binding offer.

 

In (civil) cases the phrase Without Prejudice save as to costs" is often used which is more confusing.

 

In what context has "Without Prejudice" been used ?

 

Andy

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Letter saidWithout pre-judice we will accept payment of £293.50 by 31 st July without further action.and then some jargon as this is up for going to the courts , all correspondence in writing only.

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It seems to me that the best explanation of its meaning in this case is to say that;

 

You had the opportunity to pay the £293.50 by the date shown, or to have the matter heard by a court and that your refusal or failure to make any payment could not be seen as detrimental to any argument you might put in relation to the alleged offence.

 

Having advised you that there was a case that could be taken forward and that a summons could be applied for, you were offered an alternative way of disposing of the matter, but the rail company and court would accept that it was your right to reject that opportunity and have the case heard if you then chose to do so.

 

This would not prejudice your defence in any way.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have paid my fine by Chq as requested for the full amount.However the money is still in my bank account and i have rang my bank and they haven't cashed it.I cant ring C2C.Do i write another letter.I handed it to the station by Hand to the Department on Benfleet station or do i just wait as it can take time.

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I handed it on the 28th july at 5.20pm. I didnt get a receipt as the women just took it and dissapeared and then i saw her hand it too another man and they just talked but I didnt see them open the letter.I handed in at Benfleet station at the Ticket Office as this is the address for it anyway

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