Hello,

Just found this forum after months of feeling very alone in my fight against the DVLA. I hope someone can help me!

In Jan 2008 I had my car scrapped, sent off the stamped V5 slip (unfortunately not registered post and have no photocopy or evidence of posting) and a few days later sent off my tax disc for a refund.

I received the refund 4 weeks later and thought that must mean they'd got the V5 (otherwise, why would they think I deserve a refund?)

In March I got a Late Licensing Penalty for "failure to relicense my vehicle". I wrote back explaining that I'd scrapped the car, sent the V5 and had got a tax refund.

They replied saying that unless I can provide either a Certificate of Destruction or the acknowledgement letter from the DVLA (which I never received), I am liable for the fine.

The scrappers have now provided me with a letter on headed paper confirming the car was scrapped in Jan. But they say they do not issue Certificates of Destruction.

But I spoke a DVLA representative on the phone who said that a letter is probably insufficient, only a Cert. of Destruction will do.

He said that I was at fault because I did not phone them 4 weeks after sending the V5, as is instructed on the registration document. I said that it does not state on the document that failure to phone them in a specific time period will result in a fine. He said I might have a point, but I'm still liable.

(I'm not sure how much of this call was recorded - so will have to put any good arguments to them in writing)

I now need to write them a letter in a couple of days (before the penalty increases to £80), enclosing the letter from the scrapping place, and putting forward my case in the most convincing way!

It's clearly unjust, and for that reason I want to fight, even though the thought of this whole business makes me sick to my stomach. (Especially the thought of it dragging on or going to court)

Can anyone offer advice as to what arguments I should put forward?

Has anyone successfully fought a similar battle?

Any help and encouragement very much appreciated!

- Miss "Finchley"

Miss Finchley, there are some letter templates on other threads in the DVLA section.

Just out of interest did you send the V5 back in the same letter as the form for the refund of the road tax?

Thanks for your reply, Rob.

I've searched this forum for templates but only found the one entitled "Template letter for SORN fines" which is SORN-specific. Is that the one you mean?

Unfortunately I did not send the V5 and tax refund form in the same envelope.

and a few days later sent off my tax disc for a refund.

Unfortunately he didn't so no luck going down that road.

7. Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

The above might just do it though.

Interpretation Act 1978 (c.30)

Either there is a conspiracy against the DVLA as regards post as they claim so many times that it was not received or they are guilty of gross negligence.

If they are not guilty of negligence then it is surely the most poorly run office of all the government departments.

There could be just one other reason though - money - all govenment departments, without exception, are now revenue raising departments, not that I am suggesting they deliberately lose mail on purpose you understand.

Here's an update. And it's not good

I sent a letter listing a number of objections to the penalty, including that section of the interpretation act 1978 - thanks Conniff.

The DVLA replied with a detailed letter answering all my objections. About the interpretation act, they said:

Hurumph.

Any more suggestions anyone?

Otherwise I'll be paying up on 13th August to avoid the penalty going up to £80.

Thanks for your help,

Miss Finchley

They are playing with semantics. But only to be expected with these clowns. I guess the choice is yours with regards to whether or not you pay up, but personally I would be fighting the buggers all the way. But I would remind them again exactly what it says in the Intepretation act as posted above by Conniff, "to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) "

I doesn't rely exclusively on "served".

It seems that they really are 'desperate' to get money from you and are now splitting hairs on the wording.

7. Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

Personally I would go all the way to court with this.

This isn't an allegation, it is my firm belief that even if the letter was lost, when it turned up later, they throw them away.

We know that Royal Mail is not perfect, but they are not as bad as the DVLA are trying to make out.

On this site alone there are a huge number of claims of non receipt and if you add that to all the other sites that deal with and give advice on the DVLA, you are talking in the tens of thousands.

They are obviously under the strictest orders from the government to make as much money as possible and by any means possible be that foul, theft, lies or deciept.

This government has lied and cheated like no other government before it and are insisting that the departments under their control do the same with these stealth taxes.

Hi, I've had the same issue (Car scrapped over a year ago!) but after writing a letter to DVLA explaining the situation, I've now had no response and my case passed onto the Bailiffs "Philips Collection Services" who are demanding I pay the fine of £80 or face imprisonment or a £1000 fine!!!

What can I do? I do not have spare cash to fund the government in their pledge to rid us of terrorists!!!

Any help, much appreciated!

It's not a bailiff entropea, it is a firm of debt collectors with no power but the ability to keep annoying you.

Bailiffs can only be ordered by a court.

When will people learn to get a PROOF OF POSTING? It is free!!!!!

So, etropea's demand for payment threatens a £1000 fine or imprisonment. That would mean that any Court case must surely be heard in the Magistrates and not the County court. How can Phillips be assigned to a case that is not civil and persue collection? Surely entropea has the right to a Court appearance?

When will people learn to get a PROOF OF POSTING? It is free!!!!!

Sorry - didn't realise it was MY responsibility to read the small print on a Government agency document!

We may need to do this with private companies we don't trust, but I am of the opinion that our Civil SERVICE should be trusted to have OUR best interests at heart!

It's not a bailiff entropea, it is a firm of debt collectors with no power but the ability to keep annoying you.

Bailiffs can only be ordered by a court.

Thanks Conniff - that makes much more sense. The letter is headed "Specialist Bailiff & Debt Recovery Agents"!

They'll try anything to scare people, and this is OUR civil service!

Crem has responded in another thread with the following:-

I did notify them by posting log book the day the car was picked up by the scrap man and taken away (This was over a year ago now!).

Should I use the template provided in this forum or follow Crem's advice above and simply tell them I don't want to hear anymore until I'm in front of a magistrate?

Is there anything I can do to strengthen my position to avoid any liability when it comes to court?

If they fine me £1000 after court hearing, can I go to prison in protest? I'm kind of hoping this happens so I can bring to light this extortion racket worthy of the mafia!

Thanks for all your helpful comments - nice to know I'm not alone in this.

Remember that there is not a legal obligation to follow up your notification to the DVLA and that the comments re contacting them purely constitute advice which, when you think about it, makes life easier for the DVLA rather than you. The law simply asks that you notify them – once you’ve done that you have discharged your legal obligation and complied with the legislation. Don’t let them tell you or imply otherwise.

Likewise you don’t need proof of posting – your word if perfectly sufficient and if they wish to challenge your statement on the matter then they will have to make the allegation that they think that you are lying and then prove it – remember that you are innocent until you are proven guilty. In my experience DVLA communications imply that you are guilty of an offence and then ask that you provide evidence to ‘prove your defence’ – the law specifies that it must be the other way around – they must make the allegation and then prove that you failed to comply the relevant laws. Most of these cases appear to revolve around the fact that the DVLA think that they are immune from having to be compliant with certain statute laws. Put simply – if you say that you sent the notification then it falls to the DVLA to prove that you didn’t. The fact that their computer is not up to date doesn’t automatically constitute failure on your part to send in notification – the DVLA’s case in court will really 100% on those two things being one in the same.

N.

our Civil SERVICE should be trusted to have OUR best interests at heart!

They used to but the Tories decided that was too inconvenient with civil servants exposing their wrongdoings so they changed it to their first duty being to the government of the day. (Sorry - can't remember the exact wording)

If you're looking to scrap a vehicle, then consider giving it to charity. Go to giveacar.co.uk to get your car collected for free and then converted into cash for the charity of your choice.

This is a great new service in the UK that is allowing people to make a difference for charities, large and small. To scrap a car and donate it to charity, visit www.giveacar.co.uk now...

If you're looking to scrap a vehicle, then consider giving it to charity. Go to giveacar.co.uk to get your car collected for free and then converted into cash for the charity of your choice.

 

This is a great new service in the UK that is allowing people to make a difference for charities, large and small. To scrap a car and donate it to charity, visit www.giveacar.co.uk now...

What percentage is taken in admin?

They used to but the Tories decided that was too inconvenient with civil servants exposing their wrongdoings so they changed it to their first duty being to the government of the day. (Sorry - can't remember the exact wording)

I'm sorry but I think you will find that it was 'this' Labour government and in particular the chancellor of the exchequor Gordon Brown who made the order that 'all executive departments of the government must pay for themselves, in other words, be profit making.

So even though this is saving £billions, he has still made a pigs ear of it and got the country into debt by £trillians, worse than even Greece.

Went through the joy of registering just to reply to this thread.

I scrapped a car and informed the dvla by post about 9 months ago. Didn't get tracked postage.

I've recently been contacted by a debt company based in England (I live in Belfast) claiming I owe them a fine of £80.

While it's tempting to pay it just to make it go away I don't think I will out of principle. This just seems like a systematic way to cash in on people by menacing them with debt firms.

Can't say I like what they're doing. Will fight it and see if I can dissuade them of these sort of tactics in future.