Very suspicious A&L/MBNA CCA

[larneylarnes]

Have previously posted in the general debt forum about this, don't know how to include link, (technophobe that I am ) but the thread is called Help - signature on CCA is forged!

 

Anyway, have been pondering this one for ages. Basically am convinced signature is forged, which I have verified with two pieces of paper work from the same date containing my signature and verbal confirmation from Trading Standards when I took all the paperwork in for them to peruse.

 

The agreement itself makes no mention to being an A and L cc, does not contain the sig of the co. and looks like a photocopy of a blank form that they have signed on my behalf! I think that also because none of the boxes for not being contacted by third parties are ticked and I am v sure to do that on everything I fill in. Aplogies, have no scanner at this time, (although hopefully before long), so can't post doc. What are the definitive things it should contain to be enforceable? And also, they sent me a copy of my terms and conditions but the default charges are £12.00 so I am thinking they are recent t and c's and not from the time I opened the account? Does that have implications?

 

Just need some advice really on next step. I am all for writing back saying I don't acknowledge the debt, believe the sig is forged and threatening with just about every legal body I can think of. But if a more softly softly approach would be better I am all ears!

 

Sorry for the 20 questions

Larnes

[standingupformyself]

I am not nearly experienced enough to help you larney. But make sure you "Bump" this thread every now and again, I am sure there are some other more useful CAGgers than me out there! What I can do for you however is post a link to the thread you mentioned!!!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/106635-help-signature-cca-forged.html

[larneylarnes]

Thanks SUFM and appreciate your tech knowledge. How did you do that - magic, witchcraft?!

[standingupformyself]

SUFM= aka Buffy the Bank Slayer..... some say witchcraft !!!!!! lol

[standingupformyself]

I think maybe you could PM Josie8, Steven4064 and DaveFirewalker they have popped up some threads recently and given some very good advice regarding CCA. If you are unsure of how to do it, give me a yell

[wednesday1867]

SUFM= aka Buffy the Bank Slayer..... some say witchcraft !!!!!! lol

 

Ya can cast a spell on me anytime

 

If you havent got a scanner, if youve got a digi cam, you can take pictures of agreement, thats what i do

[larneylarnes]

Hi SUM and weds, just popped this thread back up to bump it, cos I hadn't heard anything not realising you two had replied, e-mail notification obviously on the blink! (or maybe its that witchcraft again...)

 

So thanks for the suggestions and I will get on it.

 

[standingupformyself]

I seem to miss quite a few emails too..... probably best not depend on them and refresh your thread every now and again.

[steven4064]

Larnes

 

From your PM:

TS are reluctant to write on my behalf although they have verbally agreed with me that the sig does look forged. However I am not convinced they know exactly what they are doing.

If the signature is forged then that is a clear case of fraud and the right course of action would be to strart criminal proceedings by reporting the circumstances to the police. It might be worth contacting your local police station and asking to speak to someone who could advise on the way forward. Any help from TS would be useful.

 

What are TS prepared to do? Are they prepared to put their verbal agreement that the signature looks forged in writing? Would they be prepared to stand up in court and give evidence? It would be worth asking them.

[Josie8]

Could do with seeing actual cca etc but giving advice on basis you are certain in your mind that it is forged.

 

The Fraud Act 2006 will cover this. I will post it up for you later. Trading standards are usually useless. Ask the person you have dealt with , in writing, for the names of their executive officer & the Chair of relevant council committee who oversee them. Then contact them. Copy correspondance to your mp.

 

At same time go visit your local police station & ask for CID. Take fraud act 2006 with you.

 

Alternatively you can write to MBNA at advocates office & state in a letter marked without prejudice that you have conerns about cca supplied by them, refer to fraud act 2006 & invite them to reduce balance to zero, refund monies paid & remove cra references within say a 21 day period before you go to the mappropriate authorities for action.

 

Might be useful to mention BBC watchdogs name too

[larneylarnes]

Steven and Josie THANK YOU they were the definitive answers I was looking for. I will wait until next Thursday because then my super dooper new scanner is arriving and by about Christmas I will have worked out how to use it (!).

 

Although I am 100% in my mind about the signature I would be grateful to know about the legality of the document as a whole, forewarned is forearmed as they say.

 

Thank you again

Larnes

[Josie8]

The Fraud Act 2006. The Act creates a new general offence of fraud with three ways of committing it:

• Fraud by false representation
  
• Fraud by failing to disclose information, and
  
• Fraud by abuse of position
  
• Fraud must give a gain of money or property

• false representation, they have sent you an agreement with forged signature on puporting it to be yours.

2. failing to disclose. ... they appear not to have agreement.

 

In 1 and 2 above the gain to them is that they are forcing you to keep making payments you don't legally have to pay.

Fraud by false representation

 

 

1 Fraud

(1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).

(2) The sections are-

(a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),

(b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information), and

© section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable-

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to a fine (or to both).

 

2 Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he-

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and

(b) intends, by making the representation-

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if-

(a) it is untrue or misleading, and

(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

(3) "Representation" means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of-

(a) the person making the representation, or

(b) any other person.

(4) A representation may be express or implied.

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

 

 

[elizabeth1]

Larnie - yes the fraud act is very relevant within this matter as Josie says. Are you sure this is an agreement ? Reason I ask is that many of us have been fobbed off with mere application forms and other "cut & paste" jobbies - which various companies try pull wool over our eyes with in their bid to fool us.

 

You can file a claim to ask them to present this document at court - then you'll see one way or the other what happens. Have a look at my thread in the Cabot forums where my husband is doing this - the argument we are using may help you etc.. - we are after the same document in his claim (it's just different company) Look here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/cabot/111844-another-cabot-court-case.html

 

Once you get to see the relevant document - you can then build the rest of your case/claim where the fraud act etc.. comes into matters. But build it from the basic document first - make these companies prove it.

[larneylarnes]

Great thread Lizzie, thanks for that. Will post the document later this week when I get my scanner, so the experts can decide whether it is a proper agreement in the first place, quite apart from the fact that Ithink they took it upon themselves to sign it for me!

 

Then I think I will try the direct approach to MBNA and if that fails, court.

 

Thanks you very much to everyone who has helped me on this so far

Larnes:)

[larneylarnes]

Aarrgh, its only taken me 24 hours to work out how to use my new scanner and now I can't attach anything! Where am I going wrong?!

:?

[Hopeful1]

Hi Larney! Open an account with photobucket.com (it's free).

 

***When you have scanned your document onto there, it will show on the screen with 3 links under it.

 

Right click on the 3rd and then come onto this site.

 

When you've clicked on "Reply to Thread" and are typing your reply, right click and paste.

 

When you submit your reply you should then be able to see the document on your thread.

 

***It's been a while since i did this - you may have to scan you doc into something like word 1st and download it from there onto photobucket.

 

 

Have a play and see how you get on, i'll be back later

[larneylarnes]

Success or not?!!

 

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd273/larneylarnes/scan0001.

[larneylarnes]

[standingupformyself]

yep, it's there!!!!!!!! well done, you got there....

[Hopeful1]

Well done Larney! It's that 2nd link you need. Off out now but will be back later

 

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd273/larneylarnes/scan0001.jpg

[larneylarnes]

moi? a technophobe? Don't know what you mean, cutting edge me.......

 

Now hopefully ......its going to turn out to be a forged, non enforceable example of MBNA's finest work!

 

Larnes

[steven4064]

Of course we can't tell if the signature is forged for 2 reasons:

 

1) you've (quite rightly) removed the signature

2) we don't know what your signature looks like anyway!

[larneylarnes]

Hi Steven

 

Yes this is true, was hoping for clarification that it was unenforceable in addition to a forged signature, (I think I am confident enough with what I've compared it to and TS verbal agreement to pursue it on the grounds of a forgery). I wanted to have all areas covered before I write back to MBNA.

 

And hopeful, thanks v much for explaining about Photobucket.

 

Larnes

[larneylarnes]

Bump - August in catering is over and I need to get on this! Does anyone know if this is an enforceable agreement, matter of forged signature aside?

 

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd273/larneylarnes/scan0001.jpg

 

Many thanks

Larnes

[larneylarnes]

Ok, I have drafted this letter, what do you think? Is it worded strongly enough? Many thanks to those other far more clever people on here who I have blatantly copied from

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

Account No:

 

I wrote to you on 10 July 2007 requesting a true, signed copy of my credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. Your reply, dated 17 July 2007, enclosed what purported to be a copy of the above agreement, a copy of the account terms and conditions, (not from the date of opening the account) and a recent statement of account.

However, I have grave concerns about the legality of this document. It is my contention and this has been agreed by Trading Standards, that the signature on the document is not mine. I have compared it to two examples of my signature from around the same date and they do not in any way compare.

According to the Fraud Act 2006 an offence of fraud can be committed in a number of ways, including by false representation and by failing to disclose information. It is my belief that Alliance and Leicester may have committed two offences under the Act:

1. Failing to disclose information, by not sending a true copy of my agreement.

2. False representation, by sending an alleged agreement with a forged signature on it.

Therefore I require that you reduce the balance on this account to zero immediately and refund any monies paid. In addition, you may consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the DPA to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. Please remove all information relating to this account from your internal records and from my records with the credit reference agencies

If I have not received a favourable resolution from you within 21 days of the date of this letter, I will pursue it through the appropriate authorities, including, although not exclusively, CID and BBC Watchdog.

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

Yours sincerely

A very dissatisfied MBNA customer