Railway Car Park / NCP/ PCN

[darnez]

Hi all, my first post on here. Have read loads of posts with great interest.

My daughter has received a Parking Charge Notice for £50 (£25 if paid within 14 days) for 'not parking correctly within the markings of the bay space' in the station car park operated by NCP. She is already paying £760 odd for her annual ticket to park there and begrudges paying this extra rip off penalty. She and others have regularly parked in a space, which admittedly is not a marked bay, but all of a sudden the money grabbing NCP officials have been out to get what they can from the poor old commuter. I have read the 'parking rules & regulations' signs in the car park and nowhere does it say that you must park in marked bays. As the PCN has no tick in the box 'Parked causing an obstruction or hindrance' I assume that she has not broken the Railway Byelaw 14. Do you think she has acase to refuse payment? Thanks for any advice you can offer.

[Zamzara]

Does it mention any laws specifically, such as the 1991 Road Traffic Act or a named bylaw? "Parking Charge Notice" sounds like a private ticket, which would mean it's pretty much a [problem].

[falcon185]

Hi,

sorry Zamzara, there is specific Railway legislation, ( was the BRB Bye-laws 1965 as now ammended I believe )

 

Darnez, Having said that, unless it specifically states an offence under the specified bye-law (14-2) I think, then no offence has been committed, these cowboys if my memory serves me correctly actually "Lease" the car parks from the railways, which in my mind effectively cancels out the use of this particular bye-law.

I had a similar ticket at Brighton station some years ago, I ignored it and to this day have heard nothing more. my advice would be to ignore it and wait for them to write to you then post back for further assistance. It could also be an adantage if you complained at the station seeing as you are in posession of a "VALID" annual parking permit IMHO

[darnez]

Under the header ('Parking Charge Notice') to the ticket there is a sub header 'Railway Byelaws' and says " This site is operated in accordance with the railway byelaws made under section 219 of the transport act 2000 by the strategic rail authority etc etc It then goes on to say "The parking contravention to which this contractual notice relatesalso constitutes a breach of Railway Byelaw 14 made under section 219 of the transport act 2000' Then after a bit more mumbo jumbo it sets out the specifics of Railway byelaw 14. The front of the ticket has a list of 7 tick box options including such as "Parked in a restricted area in a car park", "Parked after the expiry of the time paid for in a pay & display car park". The one they have ticked is as stated in the original post " Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay space" Again as stated previously they have ommited to tick the one saying "Parked causing an obstruction or hindrance". In my opinion they seem to be suggesting that the Railway Byelaw 14 has been broken but in not ticking the obstruction/hindrance box they appear to have negated the effect of section (2)(i) which just leaves (2)(ii) - "No person in charge of any motor vehicle etc shall leave or place it on any part of the railway otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an Operator or an authorised person". As I said there is no mention whatsoever in the advertised Car Park Rules about parking within marked bays. Sorry hope that little lot is clear.

[falcon185]

I agree Darnez,

if they cannot fill out the ticket correctly as far as I am concerned the ticket is void. I would ignore it and see if they contact you again. Should they do so I would be inclined to write to them asking what specific part of the bye-law was contravened as it is not stated on the ticket. ;-)

[darnez]

Thanks for the advice

[darnez]

Sent a letter to them along the lines of my lengthy post above. Response received - cancelled. Thanks guys for your input.

[falcon185]

Nice one darnez,

did they actually state why they had cancelled the ticket? Glad we could help. ;-)

[darnez]

Pretty much standard I'd guess... "After careful consideration and in the interest of preserving positive customer relations I am happy to accept your explanation relating to circumstances whereby a Parking Charge Notice was issued. Therefore, I am pleased to confirm that the notice number.....has been cancelled"

 

Thanks again

[DB_SamX]

Hi Darnez,

 

I have also PMed you but if anyone else has a template letter as I am in the same situation, I would be most grateful.

 

Thanks in advance.

[darnez]

This is what I wrote but you need to taylor to your own case specifics

To [issuer's Name & address]

 

[Date……….]

Dear Sir or Madam

Parking Charge Notice [Ref No……………….]

I am challenging your above numbered Notice which was issued on the [Date…..] at [Name] Railway Station car park.

You have stated that the manner in which I parked was in contravention of Railway Byelaw number 14 by virtue of having: “Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay space”

You will of course be aware that the signage detailing the Parking Instructions, as located at the entrance to the car park (I have taken a photographic copy), make no mention whatsoever of the need to park within bay space markings. Therefore I cannot be in contravention of 2(ii) of the said byelaw.

Furthermore, as your official has not ticked the box on the Parking Charge Notice for: “Parked causing an obstruction or hindrance” it is clear that neither am I in breach of 2(i) of the byelaw.

Your notice has obviously been issued in error and I therefore propose to take no further action. I shall consider the notice cancelled and the matter closed.

Yours sincerely

[DB_SamX]

Thank you!

 

Another question for you or others: should I put my name or contact details on the letter I send them or shall I just leave them to find it themselves through the DVLA if they want to reply?

[darnez]

Can only guide as per my only case - I did and got a result!

[DB_SamX]

Well, some 3 weeks after contesting the notice in which I quote the Railway Byelaws and that there were no signs stating not to park within bays (photos attached) and ask them to get back to me within a week, they finally write to me stating:

 

TO enable us to investigate further, we will require a copy of you CN that was issued and any other items, photos that may assist with your appeal.

Please forward this .... quoting the site where the CN was received.

 

I am abit surprised here. That implies they had no idea I got a ticket, no records, no idea where it took place, absolutely nothing! Should I write back providing them with what they have asked (photo of sign (AGAIN)and where I was parked) or just ignore it?

 

Having read teh threads on correspondance with these companies and taking note of not giving away any addtional info, I am very tempted to write back saying I already included a photo in my original letter and that I won't scan my CN and attach it as they should have a record of it at least.

 

Advice on best course to follow appreciated.

 

Regards,

Sam

[green_and_mean]

Well, some 3 weeks after contesting the notice in which I quote the Railway Byelaws and that there were no signs stating not to park within bays (photos attached) and ask them to get back to me within a week, they finally write to me stating:

 

TO enable us to investigate further, we will require a copy of you CN that was issued and any other items, photos that may assist with your appeal.

Please forward this .... quoting the site where the CN was received.

 

I am abit surprised here. That implies they had no idea I got a ticket, no records, no idea where it took place, absolutely nothing! Should I write back providing them with what they have asked (photo of sign (AGAIN)and where I was parked) or just ignore it?

 

Having read teh threads on correspondance with these companies and taking note of not giving away any addtional info, I am very tempted to write back saying I already included a photo in my original letter and that I won't scan my CN and attach it as they should have a record of it at least.

 

Advice on best course to follow appreciated.

 

Regards,

Sam

 

 

Did you include details of the Charge notice you got, I expect they get hundreds without knowing what you are appealing against I doubt they would be able to cancel it?

[DB_SamX]

I had included the cn reference number and the apparent contravention I was contesting. I didn't include a scan/copy of the cn as I assumed they would have their own copy or be able to track it.

 

I would add that this reply refers to a 2nd cn I received from them at the station. The 1st was actually when I posted on here and was around 10 days before the 2nd. Both times I sent the exact same letter (except reference number of course) but in the first, I had attached a copy of the cn but as I said above, didn't in the 2nd. I haven't heard anything regarding the first one.

 

A curous thing was that although both cn refer to the same 'offence', the first was £50 and second £80 I think - different fines.

 

(Station car park is always near full even by 8am, so everyone finds a nook and cranny to park).

[DB_SamX]

Anyone has any advice over than me giving them the details they have requested?

 

(Apologies for the major thread hijack)

[falcon185]

Hi DB,

to be honest, I would only furnish them with the reference number, if they have lost their part of the record then they cant ask for payment IMHO especially if they have no proof of issue. Its up to them to prove you parked there and I certainly wouldnt feed them ammunition ;-)

[koolkul]

This is what I wrote but you need to taylor to your own case specifics

 

 

To [issuer's Name & address]

 

 

 

 

[Date……….]

 

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam

Parking Charge Notice [Ref No……………….]

I am challenging your above numbered Notice which was issued on the [Date…..] at [Name] Railway Station car park.

You have stated that the manner in which I parked was in contravention of Railway Byelaw number 14 by virtue of having: “Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay space”

You will of course be aware that the signage detailing the Parking Instructions, as located at the entrance to the car park (I have taken a photographic copy), make no mention whatsoever of the need to park within bay space markings. Therefore I cannot be in contravention of 2(ii) of the said byelaw.

Furthermore, as your official has not ticked the box on the Parking Charge Notice for: “Parked causing an obstruction or hindrance” it is clear that neither am I in breach of 2(i) of the byelaw.

Your notice has obviously been issued in error and I therefore propose to take no further action. I shall consider the notice cancelled and the matter closed.

Yours sincerely

 

Got a ticket in the car park at Pudsey station.

 

Wrote a letter to the address on the ticket somewhere in Bradford on the lines of the one above, enclosing copy of ticket. A couple of weeks later got a letter back from there 'Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit' '...after careful consideration we have decided on this occasion to withdraw the notice and no further action will be taken.....Therefore, without prejudice consider the matter now closed.'

 

It did also say that your personal details will be kept on the Units Database - but I think thats just a scare tactic.

 

So thanks all and in particular darnez for the letter outline - it worked a treat.

[pin1onu]

'...after careful consideration we have decided on this occasion to withdraw the notice and no further action will be taken.....Therefore, without prejudice consider the matter now closed.'

 

It did also say that your personal details will be kept on the Units Database - but I think thats just a scare tactic.

A good result.

 

You might want to request that they remove your details from their database as they have no valid reason for holding them. You can quote the Data Protection Act at them.

 

If they refuse to remove your details then you should refuse permission to process them any further. This means they can't use them against you at a later date.

[koolkul]

A good result.

 

You might want to request that they remove your details from their database as they have no valid reason for holding them. You can quote the Data Protection Act at them.

 

If they refuse to remove your details then you should refuse permission to process them any further. This means they can't use them against you at a later date.

 

Thanks for that - will do.

[hacienda1978]

I have a very similar case, only they have now changed the signage to include not parked wholey within the markings.

 

I arrived at the station in the morning for a train to london and parked in the last marked available space, as the rest of the spaces were full, due to the poor parking of the car next to me i was forced to park at a slight angle in order to get out of the car.

 

The next day i arrived back form London on a friday evening to an empty car park and a parking charge notice for £25 for Not Parked Correctly within the markings of the bay space.

 

i have now recieved a letter requesting £85.00!

 

As i regular user of the train to london and the car park i am agrieved to pay this petty fine.

 

I am not in breach of byelaw 14 2(i) as they have not included that i as obstructing anything.

 

however 14 2(ii) otherwise in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an operator or an authorised person???

 

Do i have a case?

[pin1onu]

I have a very similar case, only they have now changed the signage to include not parked wholey within the markings.

 

I arrived at the station in the morning for a train to london and parked in the last marked available space, as the rest of the spaces were full, due to the poor parking of the car next to me i was forced to park at a slight angle in order to get out of the car.

 

The next day i arrived back form London on a friday evening to an empty car park and a parking charge notice for £25 for Not Parked Correctly within the markings of the bay space.

 

i have now recieved a letter requesting £85.00!

 

As i regular user of the train to london and the car park i am agrieved to pay this petty fine.

 

I am not in breach of byelaw 14 2(i) as they have not included that i as obstructing anything.

 

however 14 2(ii) otherwise in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an operator or an authorised person???

 

Do i have a case?

You call it a parking charge notice. Is that the words used? If its issued under the byelaws then they will probably use Penalty Charge Notice and the ticket should mention The Transport Act 2000.

 

If it doesn't mention these it is probably a private parking charge and can be dealt with in the ways spelt out in the template letters at the top of this forum.

 

If you can post a copy of the document on the boards so that it can be looked at.

[hacienda1978]

Thanks pin1onu

 

Inside the pouch was two yellow slips the 1st was a remittence slip with instructions for payment, on the back of this there is details of the byelaws act (see beginning of part 2 which i have included below)

 

The parking contravention to which this contractual notice relates also constitutes a breach of railway byelaw 14 made under section 219 of the transport act 2000. If you fail to pay this charge notice within 30 days from (date of notice) then proceedings inrelation to the offence will be instituted.

 

I have scanned copies of the notice and the letter, just have to remove my details

 

 

the second is headed

part two

Parking Charge Notice

Railway Byelaws

This site is operated in accordance with the railway byelaws made under section 219 of the transport act 2000 by the strategic rail authority and confirmed under shedule 20 of the transport act 2000 by secretary of state for transport on the 22nd june 2005 for regulating the use and working of, and travel on or by means of, railway assets, the maintenance of order on the railway assets and conduct of all persons while on railway assets (the byelaws)

 

A parking charge must be paid within 28 days

reduced charge £25

if payment made within 14 days

full charge £50

if recieved after 14 days

 

(PCN No)

(Reg No)

(Location)

(make/model/colour)

(first seen at) (notice issued at)

(by pa)

(date)

 

Details

 

The only box ticked is Not parked correctly within markings of bay space

[pin1onu]

Thanks pin1onu

 

Inside the pouch was two yellow slips the 1st was a remittence slip with instructions for payment, on the back of this there is details of the byelaws act (see beginning of part 2 which i have included below)

 

The parking contravention to which this contractual notice relates also constitutes a breach of railway byelaw 14 made under section 219 of the transport act 2000. If you fail to pay this charge notice within 30 days from (date of notice) then proceedings inrelation to the offence will be instituted.

 

I have scanned copies of the notice and the letter, just have to remove my details

 

 

the second is headed

part two

Parking Charge Notice

Railway Byelaws

This site is operated in accordance with the railway byelaws made under section 219 of the transport act 2000 by the strategic rail authority and confirmed under shedule 20 of the transport act 2000 by secretary of state for transport on the 22nd june 2005 for regulating the use and working of, and travel on or by means of, railway assets, the maintenance of order on the railway assets and conduct of all persons while on railway assets (the byelaws)

 

A parking charge must be paid within 28 days

reduced charge £25

if payment made within 14 days

full charge £50

if recieved after 14 days

 

(PCN No)

(Reg No)

(Location)

(make/model/colour)

(first seen at) (notice issued at)

(by pa)

(date)

 

Details

 

The only box ticked is Not parked correctly within markings of bay space

The byelaws also state in section 23

 

(4) Notices

 

No person shall be subject to any penalty for breach of any of the Byelaws by disobeying a notice unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the Court before whom the complaint is laid that the notice referred to in the particular Byelaw was displayed.

Unfortunately as they have a sign up, I think you are knackered on this one.

Were you actually parked outside the marked bay? Can they prove that you weren't. Have you got any proof that you were in the marked bay e.g. witnesses, photos?

 

It might be worth checking with the Railway company that this firm is authorised to act as their agent and if they have been authorised to use the byelaws.

 

One other thing to check is whether they will persue in the magistrates court or the small claims. If it is the latter then I think it may be an invoice and not backed by the byelaws. It may pay to you to seek qualified advice on this one.