Mattemotion v Lloyds TSB

[fzrkitten]

Hi mattemotion,

 

Sorry, been offline a few days, trying not to think about things too much, not looking forward to court next friday!

 

As for the guys on here - think they deserve a hefty donation from me as well as my thanks, couldn't be doing this without all the help and even just the friendly support from everyone. All stars!

 

Good luck with your claim too, hope it doesn't get stayed and you can continue.

 

BW, Fzrkitten.

[mattemotion]

Had 2 letters in on Saturday. The first from LTSB acknowledging my claim blah, blah...depend on OFT case ... blah, blah...look at website...blah, blah, blah. The second an order from the courts:-

 

]IT IS ORDERED THAT[/b]

 

1. Save as appears in this order, this action be stayed pending the final decision (being judgement in the action or the final appelate court, whichever is the later) in the test case between the Office of Fair Trading v Abbey National Bank plc and others (the test case) or further order of the court.

 

2. The defendant shall by 4.00pm 14th September 2007 or by 4.00pm 21 days from the date of this order whichever is the later serveon the claimant a copy of the Particulars of Claim in the test case or notify the Claimant of a website where the Statement of Claim may be viewed and downloaded.

 

3. The Defendant shall within 21 days of the final decision in the test case file at court and serve on the Claimant:

 

a) A case summary of not more than 500 words setting out the effect of the final decision in the test case on this action.

b) Their proposed directions in this case.

 

4. Upon receipt of the documents set out in paragraph 3 of this order the file be referred to a District Judge to consider further directions.

 

5. Either party may apply to vary or discharge this order, provided that any application is made in accordance with Part 23 of the Civil Procedure Rules and made on 21 days notice.

 

Dated 28th August 2007[/QUOTE]

 

Is this as bad as it looks? Seems to me about as negative as it could be. Totally open ended stay. By linking to the test case it will inevitably drag on for months, if not years! Three against one is not a fair fight, with just little old me against the might of LTSB, SC&M and now with the judge seemingly siding with them.

 

Feeling extremely despondent. Is it worth pursuing this further?

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Matt

[GuidoT]

You can apply for the stay lifted here:

OFT Stay Removal

More OFT Stay Removal

 

Which court please?

[mattemotion]

Hi GuidoT,

 

Thanks for the quick response.

 

What do you think, is it as open ended as it looks?

 

I don't think this looks very good for me at all. I don't think the judge even had a request for a stay from LTSB. I think the judge can't be a*sed to look at any more of these cases and just wants to get them off his desk! Some might call it a cop out!

[mattemotion]

Well, onwards and ....

 

Have filled in the N244 and used Garyh's arguement for removal of the stay.

 

I know I have to send this to the court with a cheque for £35, but do I send a copy to SC&M?

 

Thanks

Matt

[sheyatwork]

Hi Matt -I have just recieved exactly the same wording in the 'General Form of Judgement or Order' (well its something from the Norwich court)!?

 

I will be posting this up on my thread too . Keep me posted and I will be following your thread closely too for any update. I was wondering what I can do with this when I recieved it today and will be opposing the stay too.

 

Fight the good fight!!

 

Good Luck

[mattemotion]

Bump.

[zootscoot]

I know I have to send this to the court with a cheque for £35, but do I send a copy to SC&M?

 

 

 

Yes

[mattemotion]

Thanks Zootscoot,

 

How successful are these applications for removing stays?

 

What happens if this doesn't work?

 

I get the feeling these are unchartered waters and I'm just stumbling around in the dark without any sense of direction.

 

Matt

[mattemotion]

Just heard on Radio 5 news that LTSB are reducing their O/D penalties! Sounded like a pre-emptive move in light of the OFT case. Are the banks on the run!

 

I'm just about to send in my application for removal of the stay. Should I hold off to include something about this?

 

The impression it gives is that Lloyds TSB are worried re the outcome.

 

Thoughts...?

 

Matt

[mattemotion]

Just had letter from the court. I have a hearing at 10am on 3/10/07 regarding my application for removal of the stay.

Spoke to the girl at the court, she said don't worry about it, it's very informal and the judge is really nice. I feel soo much better now, not worried in the slightest!

This is the first time I've ever been to court, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I need to get this stay lifted, otherwise the case could be bogged down for years and I, like everyone else on the site, need this money now.

Matt

[sheyatwork]

Hi Matt, Just in from work tonight and low and behold a letter from the court!

 

I'm there with ya same time, same place!! I wonder how many more of us may be herded in on the same time/day?.

Its got my adrenalin going....at least. Please do not worry about the court (i can say that now) I have sat in many magistrates court proceedings and there is nothing to worry about at this stage -lets see what happens next -will be interesting.

I had already printed out the bundle -but may have to print out the updated one -due to the stays.

Keep me posted

 

Best Wishes,

Shey

[mattemotion]

Do I need the bundle at this stage?

I thought the bundle was only required when the judge asked for it prior to the hearing of the case itself. As this is only a hearing to set aside the stay, is it necessary?

 

Shey, you seem remarkably calm, whilst I'm pooping m'self. You seem to have a good idea about what to expect, can you give me the low down? What do I need to take? Will I be asked any questions? Am I likely to be ambushed in anyway by LTSB lawyers?

 

My only experience of court is watching Judge Deeds and reading John Grisham novels! So, any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

Matt

[fzrkitten]

Hi Mattemotion,

 

Few items here - last one is well funny.

 

Also check out hadyanth's thread, he won in court most recently, and Gary gave me good advice too, if any helps you, on my thread.

 

Case Guidance notes - Going to court

Case guidance notes - bringing your case to court

full report from an entertaining afternoon at Kingston County Court **MUST READ** (1 2 3 4)

[sheyatwork]

Hi Matt, I like that -you are funny and probably have more experience-

 

see my thread as zootscoot (mod) kindly advised me to look through the stays forum,

also 'skelton argument'

and

'Bundle for stay hearing' -I dont think the bundle is necessary at this stage -Im probably getting ahead of myself again.

 

When I find out more, I'll keep you posted

 

Shey

[mattemotion]

Thanks Fzr and Shey,

 

I'll read up.

 

I must be loosing it though. I kept reading 'skelton' as 'skeleton'! Kept asking myself if I had anything in the closet that shouldn't be there!!

 

I don't know about you, shey, but when I filled in the application, I specifically said 'no' to a hearing and paid the £35. If the judge has called a hearing, then I don't think we should have to pay extra.

 

Matt

[mattemotion]

Anybody...

 

My hearing regarding my application for removal of the stay is Wednesday morning (3/10/07). I'm a bit confused.

 

Do I have to have my full bundle intriplicate ready for then? or

 

Do I just consentrate on my arguments for removal of the stay and get my skeleton argument ready?

 

I've only had one weeks notice of this hearing and what with pressure of work and evening commitments, I have had virtually no time to prepare.

 

Please can someone tell me what I need. I've just called into my office to check for messages and I'm waiting at my pc now.

 

Matt

[crystalcag]

Hi Matt,

 

Don't worry. I had a panic a couple of days ago (my hearing is tomorrow). I too was given only a week to prepare. Here's my thread where I was given lots of calming advice

Hearing to Remove Stay on 2nd October .

 

... and just in case you don't have these links

OFT Stay Removal

More OFT Stay Removal

Stay Forum

 

I've almost finished my skeleton argument..I'm applying on the grounds of hardship and at the finding all the proof of my debts/outgoings etc is turning out to be harder than I thought!

 

Crystal

[mattemotion]

Hi Crystal

 

Done a bit of research tonight. Found the stay bundle, so putting that together. Found Skeleton argument, putting that together also.

 

I'll find it hard to argue hardship, not because I'm well off, just that it's very difficult to show evidence. I'm self employed, have been for 11 years, my income is all over the place! Up and down, isn't enough to descibe it. Basically, I can't show what's happening untill it's already happened!

 

Thanks for your help and good luck for tomorrow.

 

Matt

[sheyatwork]

Hi Matt all the very best for tomorrow -I am dreading it now -I do hope they are easy on us!!

 

I have part of the stay bundle prepared -as I advised you from zoot, been doing a bit of reading. I am going to argue the hardship line -so have left out, the human rights paperwork -any way too late now as almost there.

 

I do hope the next time we post up -its possitive! fingers & everything crossed.

 

Shey

[mattemotion]

Hi Shey

 

Thanks for the message of support. By now we both know the result. Love your bit about 'I hope they are easy on us!!' Looking back, I'd have to say wishful thinking.

 

For those who may be interested read this...

 

What a pointless exercise today was. Shey and I were both up together, before a Circuit Judge. Shey's Barclays barrister seemed very professional and organised. Mine for Lloyds, who had come up from London to Norwich, was anything but. When I met him out side the court, he first thought he was there to ask for a stay, I told him it was actually to argue for the stay to be set aside and let him have a copy of my bundle, so he could familiarise himself with the arguments. He was very friendly and explained the proceedure, said that as I was a litigant in person, the judge would be really helpful and allow me a lot of leeway.

 

When we got in, the judge, sitting on high, asked us if we had a problem with him dealing with both of us at the same time as our cases were very similar, we were both a bit bewildered, did not really know what to say, but I personally felt it better to try to keep him sweet, so agreed.

 

I was given the oportunity to go first, I'd already given him my bundle, so started with my skeleton argument. Right from the off, it was obvious that it was pointless, he'd decided before we even got into the room. I got a real grilling, I tried to stay on track with my arguments, but every time I tried to speak, he interupted. Eventually, he asked if I had anything else to add, I said, 'is there any point?'.

 

The judge left the stay in place, saying that even if he had removed it, a hearing would not take place until well into the new year, which would be after the OFT case would be heard in January. He said there were far more deserving cases which would be heard before us, the clear implication being that we were wasting court time! I told him that niether of us had asked for this hearing and had in fact requested that there would not be one. I certainly wish there hadn't!

 

'a lot of leeway' I don't think.

 

So, my advice, if you've got a stay, let it stand and save yourself a lot of grief!

 

Matt

[GuidoT]

Unfortunately this is now the usual outcome, judges have been told from on high to generally stay matters.

 

Anyway on the positive side just think of the interest accruing.

[sheyatwork]

Matt,

It was good to meet with you today - for want of better circumstances! -it was comforting that there was someone else - attempting to lift this stay. You were very professional and clearly rehearsed -but it clearly was, a forgone conclusion from the very onset.

You did challenge, whereas I was unable to put all my points across, that I had taken hours to research and write up. I have even returned with my carefully paginated bundles, not even given the time to hand over to the judge or the barrister (that Barclays had hired for their defense). Did they return yours without even reading?

 

It really was not the small informal room that I imagined, although I had always been prepared for the worst-easy day for the barristers from London -intimidating for those of us, who just wanted justice!!

 

Kind regards,

Shey

[mattemotion]

Hi Shey,

 

Yes it was very intimidating. I was told, when I phoned the court last week, that it would be informal and held in in chambers, that the judge would be really nice. What utter rubbish!

 

I don't know about you, but I definately felt like the accused. The judge seemed to think that we had called for the hearing and that we were wasting the courts time, I think that's why he gave us such a hard time, but at least I had the chance to put him right on that!

 

I felt really sorry for you, you hardly got to speak at all. It certainly wasn't a fair hearing. I'm not just disappointed at the outcome, I'm angry at the way we were treated. It was all such a waste of time. If it was all decided before we got there, why did the judge call a hearing in the first place! I don't know about you, but it has certainly put me off ever going to court again.

 

With regard to the 'bundles', I gave one to the Lloyds barrister (kid) when I met him before the hearing and one to the court clerk when the 'kid' and I went in to let them know that we were there. The judge gave me mine back at the end, the 'kid' kept his. The judge was very dismissive of it, said he'd seen loads before and they were just 'down-loaded' from the internet, which I thought was a bit rough as we were 'litigants in person' and where else are we supposed to get advice! I noticed that he hardly asked the barristers anything and I think he resented the fact that we didn't have legal representation, we were just not in their 'club'!

 

Maybe I should have paid less attention to Judge Deeds and consentrated more on Cavanagh QC! I would love to have tied him up in knots with my dazzling performance and irrefutable arguments.

 

Anyway, life goes on and I've filed it all away in a file marked 'pointless'. I expect these forums will get quieter and quieter, because nobody knows what to do and I have this horrible feeling that I'll just end up with a huge bill from Lloyds.

 

It was lovely meeting you on Tuesday, I'm glad you were there with me, I don't think I would have been able to cope if I'd been there on my own.

 

Keep in touch,

 

Matt

[mattemotion]

Hi GuidoT,

 

Perhaps you could clarify something for me.

 

If the result of the OFT case finds the the banks have been over charging us and suggests that a fair price would be say £10 for a stopped ddm, instead of £35. Or the OFT agrees to drop the case if the banks reduce their charges to an acceptable level, where would this leave us?

 

Would we just claim back the 'over payment' plus interest?

 

Personally, I don't think the OFT case will find that the charges are unlawful, aren't they only interested in deciding if they are fair and reasonable?

 

Let me know what your thoughts are.

 

Thanks,

Matt