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    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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HSBC T&Cs HERE


stax68
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Stax, why can't I copy and paste from this thread? Any ideas?

 

No, you should be able to right-click on the images to copy or save them (in Windows Internet Explorer anyway). You can't highlight and copy text, though, as they are images. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

BTW - have you got the 1996 T&Cs in image or pdf form (rather than text)? If so could you send them to me or post them here? If you PM me I'll give you an email address.

 

cheers, Stax

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Sorry stax, I only have the 96 in text form. Jowalshy sent them me in a pm.

I realise now that i can't copy them as they are images from photobucket. I will try and email them to myself and see if I can reproduce them in order to print them out.

While I'm here, which parts of the 96 t&c's would be most relevant to my claim? I just want to add the important bits rather than the whole document.

Thanks in advance if you can help!

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Ohhh I wanna kiss you! What a lifesaver! :p

 

I have been appealing left right and centre outside of here for these! I managed to copy and paste but drag down method and have just pasted them into word.

 

Thank you thank you thank you! Keep this thread bumped everyone and let stax68's hard work go to great use! Coommoonn HSBC! :cool:

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If you can email them, surely you can save or copy them?

 

Images are better than text for evidence purposes - they look a

lot better in court than a big slab of text which could have come

from anywhere. On that topic I now have the 96 T&Cs in glorious

technicolor, to follow.

 

Text obviously has its uses though, notably cutting and pasting

bits, as you have found. Thanks for your contribution of the

1996-vintage text. I've PMed you about it.

 

In answer to your q about the useful bits from the 1996 T&Cs:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

THE CORE BITS (TALK ABOUT BANG TO RIGHTS!)---------------

 

7.2 You must always keep your current account in credit unless

we have agreed an overdraft with you.

 

7.3 You must not go over any overdraft limit that is agreed with

us unless you get our agreement first.

 

7.9 As well as charging interest for unauthorised overdrafts, we

may also charge a fee to cover the cost of the administration

involved (see the relevant price list).

-----------------------------------------------------------

EXPLANATION OF THE CORE BITS:

7.2 & 7.3 mean that you are in breach of contract if you go

over your OD limit. This is a necessary condition of the charges

being penalties.

7.9 makes it clear that the charges are levied in response to

that breach, and not on some other basis. It also says that the

charges are to cover costs - this is the bit we need to disprove

to confirm that the charges are penalties - hence the OFT stuff.

The fact that the bank makes this claim means that we have a

very good basis for saying they concealed the fact that they

weren't just covering costs but instead making a profit - which is

useful if you want to claim charges levied more than 6 years ago.

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

A BIT WHICH SHOWS THEIR NEW STORY ABOUT INFORMAL

OVERDRAFT REQUESTS ISN'T JUST A CLARIFICATION OF

EXISTING PRACTICE----------------------------------------

 

7.7 If we pay a cheque or other item you issue and, as a result,

your account goes overdrawn or goes over your agreed

overdraft limit, this does not mean that we have agreed an

overdraft or an increased limit. You must immediately pay

enough money into your account to cover the overdrawn

amount or the amount that is over your agreed limit.

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

 

A BIT WHICH COULD BE PERSUASIVE IN CONNECTION WITH

CLAIMING BACK OD INTEREST (THOUGH LATER VERSIONS OF

THE T&CS ARE LESS SPECIFIC ON THIS AND THEREFORE

MORE USEFUL)-----------

 

9.3 Liability for unauthorised transactions

9.3.1 Our liability

We will be responsible for any money lost if:

. your card is lost in despatch from us to you

. there is a fault on a self-service machine of which you have

not been notified by a message on the screen or a notice on

the machine.

Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently or with

gross negligence, we will also be responsible for any money

lost if your card is used without your authority after you have

reported to us that it has been lost or stolen or that you

suspect that your PIN is known by someone else. We will

credit your account with any amount debited under the above

circumstances including any related interest and charges. We

will have no further liability to you.

------------------------------------------------------------

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Hello all,

 

glad they are of use. I don't want to tread on anyone's toes so I should add I will send these as pdfs as soon as CAG provides somewhere for them to be downloaded from. In fact I've already sent/offered to send most of them already, but obviously there is quite a bit on what with the strange antics of various district judges recently, so in the m,eantime I am providing the stuff on this thread as a stopgap.

 

If anyone knows of a site which can hosts pdfs for free, I'll put them there. In the meantime it's just images, though the full T&Cs for 2003 and 2004 are available as pdfs here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/90721-i-need-your-help.html#post840881 though I don't know for how long theye will stay there.

 

Also, if anyone else has any T&Cs they've scanned feel free to add them.

If you're not sure how, PM me.

 

COPYING, SAVING OR PRINTING THE IMAGES:

It should be possible to save or print the images by clicking on them with the right-hand mouse button and selecting 'Save picture as...' or 'Print picture' from the pop-up menu. That's how you do it in Windows anyway, but Mac OS is probably pretty similar I expect. (Just ignore that last sentence if you don't know what it means.)

 

If you can't be bothered to right-click and save each image file, you could look in your temporary internet files (For Microsoft Internet Explorer, that's something like Tools..Internet Options..Temporary Internet Files..View Files - the details depend on your IE version) after you have viewed the page(s) with the images you want on them, and you will probably find all the image files cached in there. (Again ignore this if you don't know what I'm on about.)

 

Anyway I hope that answers most questions and doesn't cause more confusion than it removes. For my next trick: the complete 1996 T&Cs, in full colour (red and black, very appropriate.)

 

Stax

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