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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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Second time around


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Hi all

 

Well i'm back again for another round with Natwest. I did my first claim against them and got my cheque back in November last year but things have gone downhill financialy since then. My partner has now been signed off on long term sick so the only money we have coming in is benefits and we are stuck in the usual bank charges cycle. We have had more and more charges being put onto our account recently mostly due to having to have direct debits for things that we have to pay by dd. To cut a long story short, in 3 days we have had £184 taken in charges from our incapacity money. This has now tipped us right over our overdraft so that when the next lot goes in £200 will instantly be taken to cover the amount over the overdraft.

 

I did telephone the bank just now and pleaded with them to return some of the money as we have literally been left with nothing, just to be told it was our own fault for misusing our account and they were perfectly within their rights to take it. I did tell them that it was our benefit money they had taken but they couldn't of cared less.

 

So here I am again, i've looked at the faq's etc and everything seems the same as it was last time around. Is there anything I should be doing differently as i've already claimed once? I feel so depressed to be starting this all over again but here we go!

 

Also because I am only claiming from november can I just use the statements on my online banking, instead of sending off for them again?

 

Looking forward to reading the other threads and getting to know everyone.

 

Mandy

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Mandy,

If you've got the charges then proceed in the usual way with a prelim. However, if you've had the account for more than 6 years you could write and ask them for ALL of your statements and claim back further.

All the best,

Paul

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hi

 

Try ringing nat west and ask 4 the money back if they refuse explain that u have already had a successful claim against them, if they wont give u it back explain to them u will proceed with a new claim to reclaim the charges..........

 

It might work........

 

If not Prelim

 

Scott

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Hi All

 

Called the bank and explained that I had already had charges refunded, once again they couldn't of cared less!

 

Re the right of appropriation, they said that they weren't going to be taking my benefits to pay charges, they were taking them to clear the money I have over my overdraft, which of course they took in charges, clever see!

 

So I am firing of my pre lim today I think its about £1000. If I don't want to claim for overdraft interest though do I have to? The reason I ask is that I had a quick flick through the faq's to refresh my memory and it says that you should claim overdraft int if you can prove it's because of the charges. I'm not sure that I can because i've got a £2000 overdraft which is always up to the max.

 

Cheers for reading

 

Mandy

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Hi Mandy, you don't have to claim overdraft interest if you don't want to - I chose not to as I found it too complicated!!!

 

Go get your money back - good luck!!! Hedgey xxx :p

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Re the right of appropriation, they said that they weren't going to be taking my benefits to pay charges, they were taking them to clear the money I have over my overdraft, which of course they took in charges, clever see!

 

 

The way I understand it, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, they cannot do anything with your benefits. It does not matter how much money you owe them for overdrafts, charges, loans etc. They are obliged to let you withdraw the FULL amount of your benefits regardless of this taking you further over your overdraft limit.

 

Perhaps someone could please clarify this?

 

Kelly :)

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If I've helped please click my scales! :)

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Oh god, my partner phoned the DWP on tuesday and they promised they wouldn't pay the money into bank and would send a giro instead. But i've just checked my online banking and they've bloody paid it in instead and the bloody bank have taken it and now we're not getting anymore money till the 24th and i have exactly -£4 in the bank.

 

I can honestly say I hate natwest.

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Sorry beat the bankers I did see it, I just had a look at the link that you put above I don't think they are allowed to take it for whatever reason. But they just wont listen, they just say they are allowed to take it. I know I should of sent the letter in telling them they couldn't take the money, but the DWP had promised they wouldn't pay the money in and would send a giro

 

I think i'm just going to have to swallow it and borrow some money from parents to get us through.

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Grr.. I would give them hell over the phone if it were me :x

 

I do think you should send the letter anyway, just incase the DWP decide to ignore your request for a Giro and the next lot goes in aswell. If Nastywest have had their 7 days notice and ignore you, then you can kick up merry hell.

 

They should not be allowed to do this, it makes me so mad. :x

 

Kelly :)

If I've helped please click my scales! :)

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Thanks for your help Kerry, I don't think i've got the energy to try explaining this again to them just to hear, we're well within our rights etc etc etc you should manage your account better rah rah rah.

 

I'll try the DWP in the morning and see what they say although now they've paid it in there's not much they can do. As for the lot going in on the 24th they've already said they won't pay by giro we have to have it go straight into the bank (its two different benefits) so i will get that letter off to them to protect that lot.

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Hi Mandy, I've just read your thread again and I can't believe how heartless they've been with you. Have a read through here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/42170-right-appropriation-stop-bank.html as beat-the-bankers is absolutely right, they can't take your benefits. If you're registered for telephone banking, phone them once you've clued yourself up on the above link - and personally I'd go into the branch tomorrow morning as well.

 

Good luck with this - I really do hope you get a positive result. xxx :p

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Don't worry too much tonight Mandy cos there's nothing more you can do till tomorrow. Just stay positive and focus on getting your money back from them - they shouldn't have taken this for their blo*dy ripoff charges anyway. Make sure you write down everything you want to say to them, and don't let them tie you in knots 'cos you've got right on your side here.

 

Get a good night's sleep tonight and sort the rotten bug*ers out first thing in the morning. Let us know how you get on with them. Good luck, xxxx :p

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Hi Mandy, how did you get on with the bank today? xxx

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Hi

 

Just came back to update, I I had a long think about it last night and after talking to the benefits agency today decided not to go to the bank today. The reason is that I am already fully overdrawn, if I had gone in today and they had given me the £200 back this would have taken me further into debt, I would then have had to do the same for all my other benefits thereby just getting worse and worse into it.

 

The benefits office have told me that they will no longer be paying any money into that account. I have cancelled all my d/d and am in the process of setting up another account to deal with these. I appreciate the help you all gave (Hedgey and Kerry) and will be carrying on with my claim against them for my charges.

 

Thanks for your help everyone

Mandy

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Well done Mandy, you've taken the right steps for you and your family and you'll soon be free and clear of Nat West and the financial pressure they've put you under. You've tried to negotiate with them and got nowhere, so (to be honest) I think you've come out of this with your head held high and your dignity intact.

 

The fact that they're prepared to take your family's benefits shows the levels they'll stoop to just get their extortionate charges from whoever they can. :mad: You've done the right thing taking steps to open another account elsewhere - at least you'll know where you're up to with your money when you haven't got someone taking every penny you've got in charges.

 

Keep going Mandy, we're all behind you every step of the way. You'll get your money back, and when you do.............. I reckon you and your family deserve a blo*dy nice treat!!!

 

Good luck honey, keep us posted, hedgey xxxxx :p

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I will send the letter because the incapacity people said they weren't completely sure if they were allowed to pay by giro apart from in exceptional circumstances and thats our main benefit so i will have to be sure with that one.

 

I must say we've never had any dealings with the benefits agencys before dp got signed off work and between them and the banks you really are left with practically no dignity whatsoever. I can't believe how hard it is just to open a normal current account, with no monthly fee, just to pay d/d's out of if you are not employed.

 

It has really changed my views on benefits etc

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The one thing you can always keep is your dignity and self respect. At the end of the day Mandy, you're not getting incapacity because you can't be bothered working, you're getting it because you genuinely have to claim it. They won't give it away like they used to. It's there when there's a genuine need - so don't let anyone make you feel otherwise.

 

Just hold on to your dignity, and never sink to their level. At least that way you'll always know you're the bigger person. And if you want my opinion, you already are the bigger person as you've dealt with everything the right way.............. whilst they've dealt with everything unprofessionally!!!!!

 

And as for the bank account, try one of the basic bank accounts that the banks are offering - some of them come with D/D facilities (think it might be Nationwide who offer that one???). But above all, don't worry - you've nearly got it sorted now and that's the main thing. As long as your benefits aren't being swallowed by bank charges, you can get yourself sorted.

 

Keep posting on here............. we'll make sure you keep your dignity - way more than the banks have got as well!!! Love, hedgey xxxx :p

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I'm so glad to come accross this thread because I am also going to start another claim. I'm on a low income and found myself in the cycle all over gain and felt really depressed two days ago when I realised that I would be charged yet again at the end of the month. I spoke to them on the phone and they send under no circumstances would they refund me or stop the charge. Like you, they said I should manage my account better....They are so heartless!

Did you sign anything when you were given back the charges? The guy on the phone hinted that I had agreed to the charges and would not take them to court. I will have to look at the documents and see what I signed.

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