HSBC ..Total Charges Can I claim these????

[freakyleaky]

I got a spare cricket bat?

[hsbcfiddled]

I am not that good with my left hand- Ive got a baseball bat in my right.

still should be able to hit somebody with it!

[rhsymonds]

Any news Fiddled ? I was just looking for any info you sent to FOS (to copy if im being honest, sorry lol) and realised its 2 months since you posted. Hope all is well.

 

R

 

[hsbcfiddled]

Hi Rhsy

 

Re : managed loan - no payments made since june. Local branch looking into circumstances of whole loan, same peron at local branch agrees that neither on the agrrements supplied have been properly executed.

 

Business account : received some statments - waiting on more.

 

Whats happening with your case Rhsy?

[rhsymonds]

I sent a letter to Metropolitan saying they had no right to contact me and i will be complaining to the FOS due to them not providing a true copy of my agreement. They said that they have placed the account on hold while they await the Ombudsmans decision, only thing is i havent actually reported it yet as i dont know where to start !!

 

Any pointers for a FOS complaint Fiddler ? Anyone ?

 

Thanks

[hsbcfiddled]

I have made a complaint to FOS regarding a DCA.

 

Basically I complained that they;

1. Continued to try to get us to make a payment even though they had stated that they did not have or need the Executed agreement.

2. Because they had only bought the deed of assignment therefore they did not need to comply with request for executed agreement CCA 1974 and that we were still required to pay the debt.

3. They had failed to supply the agreement within the time guidelines and even in their final response letter asked us to pay £1000 as a one off payment.

4. failed to comply with my request for nil balance and remove any subsequent defaults.

 

I also section 10 them regarding my data.

I have sent copies of all communication between us just last week.

 

I will post the response.

[rhsymonds]

Thanks Fiddler, i just got the complaint form from the FOS website and ill fill it in tonight. Dont forget to keep us informed !!

 

Cheers,

 

Ross

[hsbcfiddled]

update:

 

Received 26th October 2007 from Mohsan Yousuf at HSBC a final demand for Managed Loan account.

and personal account (overdrawn and mostly made up of charges and bounced payment requests/refunds of Managed loan payment requests- which of course they are not allowed to try to take)

 

The demand follows this letter that I wrote them.

 

 

Mr. hsbcfiddled

Fiddled Town

PO2 U2

M. XXXXXXX

Local Branch

HSBC

 

3rd October 2007.

FAO: M. xxxxxxxx and HSBC Legal Department.

 

Managed Loan account no. xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear M. XXXXXX,

 

On June 8th 2007 I wrote to Mr. Somebody at HSBC requesting the following;

 

“With reference to the above agreement, we would be grateful if you would send us a copy of this credit agreement.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), we are entitled to receive a true copy of our credit agreement on request. We enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

We understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act”.

 

On July 12th 2007 we received from Miss. Someonelse at HSBC a first copy of an agreement, (albeit well outside the timeframe set by the Consumer Credit Act 1974) as a result no further requests for payment or charges can be added to the account from June 28th 2007 until a true copy of the executed agreement has been produced.

 

We wrote back to Miss. Someonelse at HSBC on the July 17th disputing the authenticity of the copy provided.

 

On August 16th I received a second copy (with no crossings’ out etc) of the supposed agreement. I wrote to Miss. Someonelse again at HSBC this time on the 21st August disputing the authenticity of the second copy.

 

We have now been referred to you M.XXXXXXX

 

Without going into the reasoning for being placed on a managed loan- re charges etc we will list below our disagreement of the authenticity of the agreement itself.

 

 

• Terms and Conditions-

Neither of the copies has the actual terms and conditions that we have paid from the first to last payments made.

Both copies state initial payment of £xxx.xx then 95 monthly payments of £xxx.xx

but,

we have made some 39 four weekly payments of £YYY.YY

 

This point alone makes the agreement incorrectly executed and therefore unlawful.

 

 

 

• Apr %-

The Apr figure on both copies is based on monthly payments

whereas arrangements were made for four weekly payments this would therefore affect the Apr percentage and therefore the Apr figure would not be accurate.

This point alone makes the agreement incorrectly executed and therefore unlawful.

 

• Date in customers signature box-

The date has been applied in the customer’s signature box ......but it has been added by a bank official..... WITHOUT US BEING PRESENT

Therefore as it has been left undated by the customers- we the customers- would not know when our right to cancel started or even expired.

This point alone makes the agreement incorrectly executed and therefore unlawful.

 

• Customers signature-

On close examination of the signature of Mr. hsbcfiddled the signature does not resemble Mr hsbcfiddled's signature.

 

These signatures have obviously not been verified by the Bank official before the loan was commenced?

This point alone makes the agreement incorrectly executed and therefore unlawful.

 

In conclusion.

 

If the agreement has not been executed to conform to the requirements of Consumer Credit Act 1974 then it is unlawful.

 

Only one of the four points that I have raised need be proved to invalidate this agreement and I have raised four.

 

This loan should never have commenced and has been poorly managed.

 

Recompense.

 

This managed loan has now been in default since June 28th 2007 therefore you cannot from that date request payments from us, add interest, add charges, or register defaults, or attempt to sell this debt.

Please adjust current account accordingly

 

To rectify this situation we will accept a cheque in full refund of all payments with added compounded interest @ 14.8% Apr as settlement.

We believe that 14 days is ample time for you to respond given that the initial concerns raised regarding this managed loan were raised in a letter to Colin Langdale in April 2007.

 

Yours Sincerely

Mr hsbcfiddled

 

 

 

The demand also states that they may give details of this default to CRA's (not that worries me as I do not want any credit anyway)

 

 

In reply to the Final demand I have the following letter waiting to go in the post.

 

 

Dear Mohsan Yousuf,

 

In reply to your unlawful letter of demand for payment letter of 16th October 2007

 

This managed loan has now been in default since June 28th 2007 therefore you cannot from that date;

 

1. Request payments from us,

2. Add interest,

3. Add charges,

4. Register defaults,

5. Or attempt to sell this debt.

This debt is unenforceable.

 

I am extremely annoyed at HSBC’s failure to respond within a reasonable timeframe, and I am not willing to explain to you, or anymore of HSBC’s employees, their legal obligations.

 

If you contact the branch manager they will provide you with a copy of my letter dated 3rd October 2007 to M. xxxxxx & your legal department.

 

I will today report you Mohsan Yousuf to the OFT for this letter of demand when the managed loan is already in default.

The OFT are already examining HSBC handling of this account and HSBC have been advised.

 

Please proceed with whatever action you deem fit.

However any actions that do not comply strictly with the CCA1974 act- failure to provide a copy of an executed agreement- will be reported.

 

Mr hsbcfiddled.

 

 

 

Your thoughts please, anyone?

 

[rhsymonds]

Hi Fiddled, I also got a letter from Mohsun Yousuf, and replied asking if that was his final word on the matter. Stating that if it was, I would be complaining to FOS. He eventually replied that yes, this is the banks final word and he will wait to hear from the FOS. Havent heard anything for a couple of months now, but i also havent filed a complaint with the FOS yet (being evicted due to landlord not paying rent, which is fun).

[freakyleaky]

Hi Rhsy! Sorry to hear you are having problems! Hope you sort it out soon!

[Castlebest]

Poor Mohsan Yousuf, hes not having much luck with his debt collection for HSBC.

I also had a letter from him that happened to arrive about a week before my stay appeal hearing. I sent a copy to the court along with a copy to DG and a copy back to Moshan to show him what I had done with his seven day payment letter, not heard anything else yet

 

pete

[hsbcfiddled]

Went online yesterday to check;

1. If further attempts have been made to take managed loan from my account or

2. Any charges had been added because I havent put any money into this account since July 2007 to prevent them taking payments.

 

Well I couldnt gain access it kept throwing up a HK3 code and a contact number.

 

So I phoned them up and was told "account closed" and passed to Metropolitan (MCS).

I told them 'you cant do that' but of course the person I was speaking to didnt have a clue regarding CCA 1974. I went on 'for the benefit of the tape' to tell them that the hierarchy who make these decisions were in my opinion "the **** of the earth, and that my money would have been safer with Dick Turpin, and Bank officials had replaced tax inspectors, traffic wardens, and estate agents as the most hated in Britain, and as for listening bank...............rant rant rant.

I know it was a waste of time - but the cat was grateful.

 

Well after all that she gave me a number to ring 0500 992 299

which turned out to be in the Phillipines.

When I phoned MCS they told me 'we dont have anything on the system yet'. I told them 'dont bother putting anything on the system because you wont be collecting anything off me'

 

I want to take court action against HSBC for this managed loan what are my options?

They have taken £10,000 in payments without a properly executed agreement and I want it back with compounded interest.

[Castlebest]

I think you have a case, they have totally messed up the managed loan agreement and therefore the loan is firmly in dispute and unrecoverable by HSBC.

 

How a judge would view this in court is another matter, I think you would be on fairly safe ground with regard to interest and any charges but with regard to the initial debt, morally you have had this money from HSBC so they would probably say you have to repay it.

 

pete

[hsbcfiddled]

Off to work Pete,

reply in the morning

hsbcfiddled

[lateralus]

could be wrong here but i see some parallels with greedfighter's arguments - you might like to take a look - This will make you laugh !!!!! (1 2 3

[hsbcfiddled]

I think you have a case, they have totally messed up the managed loan agreement and therefore the loan is firmly in dispute and unrecoverable by HSBC.

 

How a judge would view this in court is another matter, I think you would be on fairly safe ground with regard to interest and any charges but with regard to the initial debt, morally you have had this money from HSBC so they would probably say you have to repay it.

 

pete

 

Yes I can understand the morale side of the argument.

But that works two ways because I can argue that my business (pre managed loan) was penalised with charges-which generated interest fees- that added together exceed the managed loan.

Indeed that is what the managed loan represents.

 

However HSBC may not be able to challenge the business charges because they do not hold details beyond six years! (they say)

 

 

Fiddled

[hsbcfiddled]

could be wrong here but i see some parallels with greedfighter's arguments - you might like to take a look - This will make you laugh !!!!! (1 2 3

 

 

Hi lattie,

Nice to hear from you.

 

I have read greedfighters case and find it amazing.

But I cannot see the paralells (just got up- working nights- well thats my excuse) ?

 

Fiddled

[freakyleaky]

Yes I can understand the morale side of the argument.

But that works two ways because I can argue that my business (pre managed loan) was penalised with charges-which generated interest fees- that added together exceed the managed loan.

Indeed that is what the managed loan represents.

 

However HSBC may not be able to challenge the business charges because they do not hold details beyond six years! (they say)

 

 

Fiddled

If the managed loan was set up to cover costs incurred solely as a result of charges then you have a solid argument against the loan and charges!

 

Even though they may not hold any records beyond 6 years (I don't beleive that either) you still have to prove they owe you the money by providing the statements yourself!

[hsbcfiddled]

If the managed loan was set up to cover costs incurred solely as a result of charges then you have a solid argument against the loan and charges!

 

Even though they may not hold any records beyond 6 years (I don't beleive that either) you still have to prove they owe you the money by providing the statements yourself!

Must I have the statements- What if i provide a list of charges with the dates?

[freakyleaky]

Where is the list from? Was it supplied by the bank?

[hsbcfiddled]

BTW I forgot to mention that my branch manager (who I have spoken to at length in the last month, re managed loan) phoned me yesterday and from their tone of the voice and attitude I get the feeling that the branch manager was ashamed of the way I have been treated and that they could not believe that the account closure had been sanctioned.

They went on to say "I cannot believe they have done this with the level of people that I have passed this to. Dont do anything yet I will get back to you soon with some answers. I hope".

[hsbcfiddled]

Where is the list from? Was it supplied by the bank?

 

The list will be provided by me - however, as a company we do not keep statements beyond six years.

My accountant is willing to swear an affadavit re the charges levied on this account and i have a letter from him with end of year accounts going back to 1993.

[Castlebest]

I think that would be good enough, if the figures come from your audited accounts it will then be up to HSBC to disprove them

 

pete

[hsbcfiddled]

BTW I forgot to mention that my branch manager (who I have spoken to at length in the last month, re managed loan) phoned me yesterday and from their tone of the voice and attitude I get the feeling that the branch manager was ashamed of the way I have been treated and that they could not believe that the account closure had been sanctioned.

They went on to say "I cannot believe they have done this with the level of people that I have passed this to. Dont do anything yet I will get back to you soon with some answers. I hope".

 

Well I had the phone call today.

To summarise-

1. They would like a face to face meeting to discuss the managed loan.

Apparently the managed loan (that is in default) was an amalgamation of another managed loan (news to me-loan maybe-but managed loan?) and a personal loan.

They would like to discuss restarting the previous managed loan???????

2. They wont be able to discuss charges.

Well I am prepared to listen to what they have to say.

However I am even more confident now than I was before.

1. They cannot believe they have a hope in hell of enforcing the defaulted loan because they would have me in court instead of closing the account.

2. They want to discuss restarting a loan that has been terminated..... If they were able to do so they wouldnt be asking to speak to me- they would be demanding payment.

3. They would like me to agree to paying the managed loan and i have said i am willing to do so....providing all charges are refunded with compounded interest.

Thoughts please.

[lateralus]

i think the crux of the complaints about the managed loan is that the original debt is made up almost exclusively of accumulated bank charges.

added to the fact that the loan itself is set up like a mortgage - where the early payments are almost exclusively interest - taking almost nothing off the capital of what is owed. it has long been my contention that had it not been for the original unlawful and punitive charges - the debt would not have spiralled into such an amount that the bank entices people into the managed loan. it does seem logical that the interest on the managed loans, being made up of bank charges which you are questioning, would therefore be refundable. this was the basis for tigs33 and her getting her husband's managed loan repaid. (Husband v HSBC - Paid granted this was way last year when things were different - but if it helps you see a bigger picture - then it would be worth a read.

my comments about the parellels with greedfighter - i meant there is more than one way to skin a cat - and sometimes fighting the bank might require some thinking outside the box -

just hoping something might come out which could help you in your situation.