Mbna - Properly Executed Agreements

[davefirewalker]

regarding my mbna loan agreemnet

 

it seems that not only is the interest rate missing, but they've cocked up one of the terms

 

would it be naughty of me to reclaim ALL my payments if this is unenforceable

 

or is that a step too far.......btw ive just found out mbna have taken an unauthorised payment from my account. I had been paying by debit card, and it seems like they helped themselves.......

 

now Ive got them for (theft / fraud) as well

 

Dave

 

ps anyone know of an answer to a s78 get out...we have supplied docs etc...in fact the supplied an application form and a mailer.

 

I'm looking but some of these threads are pretty big

 

Dave

[djweeble]

OH HAPPY DAYS !

 

My God I wish I had been more regular in this particular forum

 

This is the first time I've seen this thread, and I have to admit, I'm one of those poor unfortuanate souls that can't get a copy of the original agreement from MBNA, BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT ONE !!!!!!!

 

I recently got my FULL SAR from them after a hell of a fight, and the only thing there is a bad photocopy of the front of the original application form that I filled in for the card, no terms or agreements, no MBNA signature NO HOPE FOR THEM

 

This is just what I have been looking for to use against Leech Financial to get rid of their charging order, there was NO LEGAL DEBT

 

I wonder what Leech will think once I drop the bomb on them !!

 

[davefirewalker]

you lucky sod......

 

I'm having some very hard work and more to come

 

all the best on your good news

 

Dave

[Jeff2000]

OH HAPPY DAYS !

 

My God I wish I had been more regular in this particular forum

 

This is the first time I've seen this thread, and I have to admit, I'm one of those poor unfortuanate souls that can't get a copy of the original agreement from MBNA, BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT ONE !!!!!!!

 

I recently got my FULL S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) from them after a hell of a fight, and the only thing there is a bad photocopy of the front of the original application form that I filled in for the card, no terms or agreements, no MBNA signature NO HOPE FOR THEM

 

This is just what I have been looking for to use against Leech Financial to get rid of their charging order, there was NO LEGAL DEBT

 

I wonder what Leech will think once I drop the bomb on them !!

 

 

 

Hi,

 

 

Excellent stuff!

 

I'm roughly in the same boat! No original agreement, and both MBNA and Link have defaulted on my CCA request!

 

Just waiting for Link to move, I must admit I thought they would have had a go in court weeks ago!

 

 

Jeff.

[djdave]

If you want a giggle, have a look at the "agreement" Link Financial have finally got round to sending me:

 

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/djdave2007/lo_res_scan_blanked_1024.jpg

[Dotty111]

This is exactly the same format that Lloyds Tsb sent me for my credit card apart from at the top mine said "if your application is accepted then this application form becomes your agreement" ehhh I don't think so ! me thinks there a few important things missing like ALL the prescribed terms. Oh happy days djdave

 

Lady H x

[djdave]

Oh happy days indeed! I see there's a few of us in that position with Massive Bunch of Numpty Americans, how did they ever think they'd make that stand up in court?

 

Question now is, as they've sold the debt to Link Financial without any valid agreement, can I claim back the (admittedly small amount of) money I've paid to Link?

[Cornucopia]

Oh happy days indeed! I see there's a few of us in that position with Massive Bunch of Numpty Americans, how did they ever think they'd make that stand up in court?

 

Question now is, as they've sold the debt to Link Financial without any valid agreement, can I claim back the (admittedly small amount of) money I've paid to Link?

 

Welcome to the club DJ! How exciting! :grin:

[Louiselouise]

Please could I pm someone re MNBA - its a very delicate question - can anybody help?

[Cornucopia]

Please could I pm someone re MNBA - its a very delicate question - can anybody help?

 

Hi Cathycathy, yes please do PM me and I'll see what I can do.

 

Regards,

 

Corn :)x

[the main man]

Hi Everybody,

I have received a reply in double quick time(3 days!)to my CCA request from MBNA which I would appreciate anybodies views of. Although not an expert I have a feeling this could be valid:( , but definitely willing to be proved wrong!

These were the only docs sent so have they fully complied to the request?

 

 

 

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/Themainman_bucket/CCF27042007_00000.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/Themainman_bucket/Applicationform.jpg

[Cornucopia]

Hi Everybody,

I have received a reply in double quick time(3 days!)to my CCA request from MBNA which I would appreciate anybodies views of. Although not an expert I have a feeling this could be valid:( , but definitely willing to be proved wrong!

These were the only docs sent so have they fully complied to the request?

 

 

 

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/Themainman_bucket/CCF27042007_00000.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w9/Themainman_bucket/Applicationform.jpg

 

Hello, I can't see at what point this is a "true executed agreement"? What's a "TION Form", oh let me guess, that will be your "APPLICA.......TION" form. This looks like a case of conjecture to me.........anybody?????

[davefirewalker]

Hi corn....jeeez your busy tonight youre popping up everywhere

 

ok Ive had a look at this one and as much as I want to say its no good I can't do it 100%. I would love to be proven wrong. even though it is obviously an application...it still has the terms reqd on the t&c and two sigs. we need to be able to break the link between the agreement and the t&c. The t&c seems to be fully covered.

 

Dave

[Cornucopia]

Hi corn....jeeez your busy tonight youre popping up everywhere

 

ok Ive had a look at this one and as much as I want to say its no good I can't do it 100%. I would love to be proven wrong. even though it is obviously an application...it still has the terms reqd on the t&c and two sigs. we need to be able to break the link between the agreement and the t&c. The t&c seems to be fully covered.

 

Dave

 

Dave, am SO trying to please everybody tonight! Have been working full time as opposed to my part time, therefore am a stranger on threads!!! Had 61 emails solely related to CAG when I got in tonight! Have had a bottle and a half of Pinot too - so am not good! Also have hiccups!

 

I stick with my statement re : conjecture. Where's the two sigs? There is a sig and a stamp on the application, but it is an application? The T&C's look current to me. Maybe I am too wine addled, but I cannot see how that is a true copy of the executed agreement and I maintain my stance that it is conjecture.

[davefirewalker]

I'm only 3/4 on thru a bottle of shiraz, but more to come.....

 

why do we do it to ourselves?

 

ok it is proven that a stamp can be a sig.....so be mindful of that. if the t&c are current we have broken the link between the docs

 

Dave

[Rhia]

Now Peter Bard on the Consumer Contract thread has had the answer to this for some time from Ian McCartney MP, Consumer Minister at the Department of Trade and Industry who has said categorically that an application form is not, nor ever can be an executed agreement.

[davefirewalker]

wwwwweeeeeeeeellllllll maybe

 

I would like to see this tested in court.......which it may be soon if morgan stanley carry on playing silly burgers

 

 

dave

[Cornucopia]

I'm only 3/4 on thru a bottle of shiraz, but more to come.....

 

why do we do it to ourselves?

 

ok it is proven that a stamp can be a sig.....so be mindful of that. if the t&c are current we have broken the link between the docs

 

Dave

 

Dave, Shiraz or not, I cannot see how an illegible stamp across an application form can constitute an agreement signed by both parties, I have seen, on this site, rather more tangible "agreements" with at least one signature by the debtor/creditor that actually is somebody's signature. A stamp across an application could mean/be absolutely anything and I don't think that there is room for argument in that regard. I have GOT to go to bed can we argue this tomorrow? Am bloody knackered!:(

[davefirewalker]

not arguing...just playfull discusion

 

 

night night

 

dave

[Rhia]

Here it is reproduced below so paste it and save. In any event if they have the agreement why not just produce it and save everyone the hassle. Why not? Because they don't have one and they are hoping you'll be fobbed off with the application form and a load of old bollix.

Evening Corn thought you'd been quiet today but then, so have I.

 

dti

 

21 December 2006

 

Re consumer credit act 1974

 

Thank you for your letter of the 7th of December on behalf of your constituent Mr Peter Bardsley of******************* about a possible irregularity in the Consumer Credit act 1974.

 

The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations apply to all the situations that are listed in the Schedule to the Regulations and this include Sections 77 and 78 of the Act, which are about copies of the executed agreement and not pre contractual information

 

The Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents Regulations are made under Section 180 of the Act (power to prescribe the form etc of documents) and Section 180 enables Regulations to be made to provide for including/excluding certain information from copies sent out under the Act. The Regulations apply to all copies sent our under the Act unless specifically excluded in the Regulations themselves.

 

Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and Conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form. Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement**

 

If Mr Bardsley feels that the rules are being flouted he should report the companies concerned to Trading standards and the Office of Fair Trading. It is also a breach of the Act and the Regulations to send the application form rather that a “true copy” of the Agreement.

On the point that Mr Bardsley makes about unscrupulous companies adjusting agreements, If there were a dispute about an agreement, the lender would need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had and agreement with the consumer to start with,

The lender should need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had an agreement with the consumer to start with. If the lender can’t prove the existence of the agreement, winning any court case would prove difficult.

 

 

Approved By the Minister and signed in His presence

 

Pp Ian Mc Cartney

[davefirewalker]

I agree......100% and am not arguing the fact, I am trying to see it from a judges point of view (hard I know)

 

if he is presented with a hybrid....an application / agreement and it has all the terms and two sigs how would he see it?

 

its a coin toss

 

wouldnt like to test that doc.

 

mine only has one sig.......might be in with a chance

[the main man]

Re: Consumer Credit Act Agreements

Below is a letter i received back in December it may clarify it may not

 

Below is a copy of the letter sent from Ian Mcartney after a arepresentation made by me to my MP, sorry about the delay in posting but I was awaiting my MP OK.

 

It is not complete as ihave removed refernce to certain issues not relavant to this thread. I have underlined some interesting points and have added some comments at the end.

 

dti

 

21 December 2006

 

Re consumer credit act 1974

 

Thank you for your letter of the 7th of December on behalf of your constituent Mr Peter Bardsley of******************* about a possible irregularity in the Consumer Credit act 1974.

 

The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations apply to all the situations that ate listed in the Schedule to the Regulations and this include Sections 77 and 78 of the Act, which are about copies of the executed agreement and not pre contractual information

 

The Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents Regulations are made under Section 180 of the Act ) power to prescribe the form etc of documents) and Section 180 enables Regulations to be made to provide for including/excluding certain information from copies sent out under the Act. The Regulations apply to all copies sent our under the Act unless specifically excluded in the Regulations themselves.

 

Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and Conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form. Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement**

 

If Mr Bardsley feels that the rules are being flouted he should report the companies concerned to Trading standards and the Office of Fair Trading. It is also a breach of the Act and the Regulations to send the application form rather that a “true copy” of the Agreement.

On the point that Mr Bardsley makes about unscrupulous companies adjusting agreements, If there were a dispute about an agreement, the lender would need to prove to a court that there was an agreement and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had and agreement with the consumer to start with,

The lender should need to prove to a court that there was and agreement **and, it is highly likely that the lender would have to produce the original signed document to prove they had an agreement with the consumer to start with. If the lender can’t prove the existence of the agreement, winning any court case would prove difficult.

 

 

Approved By the Minister and signed in His presence

 

Pp Ian Mc Cartney

 

 

**This confirms that the burden of proof is on the creditor to provide proof of the existance of an agreement and not on the debtor to prove it's none existance.

 

My response to this letter is posted earlier in the Consumer Credit thread.

 

Peter

 

 

So in the least is it worth disputing with MBNA the fact they have not provided me with a true executed agreement?

[davefirewalker]

same as the one above, i agree and please i'm on your side honest. and yes I would dispute it for all I was worth. but if it came to court, they "might" win it depends on the judge. A politicians verdict isnt worth S**t they swing with the tide.

 

short answer....try it

 

but dont be disapointed (ive never known anyone who was pointed, theres always disgruntled employeees but ive never seen a gruntled one either)

 

 

Dave

[Rhia]

Dave this isn't just a politican's opinion. The DTI are responsible for the law for passing it, amending it and what IMcC is saying is indeed the law. Now we know it can be open to interpretation but his statement is the defining one. It needs to be used against CC providers and DCAs etc.

[the main man]

Re: Mbna - Properly Executed Agreements

same as the one above, i agree and please i'm on your side honest. and yes I would dispute it for all I was worth. but if it came to court, they "might" win it depends on the judge. A politicians verdict isnt worth S**t they swing with the tide.

 

short answer....try it

 

but dont be disapointed (ive never known anyone who was pointed, theres always disgruntled employeees but ive never seen a gruntled one either)

 

 

Dave

 

 

I have yet to receive details of the charges from MBNA but estimate a third of my balance would go with them alone, so not on a total loser. Think I will dispute account and wait for charge info to come then see what occurs!

Many thanks for all the Help