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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Introducing myself


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Hi folks,

 

I'm J1mmy .... and I haven't had a drink for .... sorry - wrong place.

 

I'm probably in the same position as many of you here. In my case, a business that didn't do as well as expected put me in what's best described as a poor fiscal position. I've spent the last two years working hard to repay debts incurred by that business. Unfortunately, it seems that the HSBC works hard to prevent that - currently penalty charges are being levied against my account at a rate of £350 a month. A lot of money for an £84 overdraft ... especially as I have only once had a phone call returned from the branch. (To tell me that it wasn't the policy of the HSBC to issue branch telephone numbers).

 

Well, after cajoling, writing, telephoning and begging I've finally resorted to a threat of action and found this place today which appears to have some very solid advice.

 

Over the last 6 years the HSBC has taken in excess of £6000 from my account by way of penalty charges despite my not even being able to get my bank manager to return a phone call for the last 3 years.

 

Strangely, an hour after faxing (copy by post) the 7 day letter my manager telephoned me. I at least had the satisfaction of explaining to her that the main reason for the threatened action was her inability to return a telephone call or letter. She made no offers, nor could she manage to defend her constant inaction. She did state that it was 'Bank policy' to impose these charges to which I responded that it was that very policy I was willing to have questioned in court. The manager (that really is quite a laughable title for someone who seems incapable of managing to dial a telephone number) informed me that any credits were beyond her ability to authorise, but she would have the appropriate department contact me.

 

Thus far, I have had no further contact from the HSBC.

 

Tomorrow, in the absence of any contact from them, we will initiate the claim.

 

Any words of wisdom, advice or general cheerng from the sidelines will be appreciated.

 

JD.

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Three things are certain in life:

 

1. Death.

2. Taxes.

3. If a bank says they will phone you back, you will never hear from them again.

 

 

Send the letter before action if you know how much they owe you (make sure it's the business version, NOT the personal one - the personal one mentions the Consumer Credit Regs, not applicable in your case).

 

If you don't know, then send the DPA request letter - they HAVE to tell you how much they have taken from you.

 

Welcome, by the way. Have a read around, the rules, faqs etc... and get to know the terminology. It helps, and it helps the bank to understand that you mean what you say.

 

Have you another account ready in the event that they get shirty and close yours?

If you feel that we have helped you, or you would like to help keep this web site running so that others can continue to get their money back, please click the donate button at the top of the forum.

Advice & opinions of Dave, The Bank Action Group and The Consumer Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.

 

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Add me as your friend on FaceBook - I need all the friends I can get :-(

 

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=577405151

 

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Thanks, Dave.

 

Just to clarify - these are charges against a personal account. The original debt problems coming from me trying to prop up the business.

 

I don't have another account ready to be used, but I can always draw down cash rather than have salaries paid into the bank.

 

As for them getting shirty, that's fine by me. It rather gives you licence to get down and dirty yourself, right?

 

;)

 

(BTW, you'll get used to my humour).

 

I'm an engineer but trained as a solicitor ... let them get mean ... I haven't put the claim in yet and I'm willing to let them off with interest in return for a quick settlement. If they do get mean, or refuse to talk to me then the claim goes in with full interest. In addition, I'll move the other (good) accounts I have with them.

 

What is truly stupefying is the 'head in the sand' mentality of what seems to be the entire staff of the bank. But hey - preaching to the converted, I'm sure.

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How do they take £350 amonth in charges? I thought they had a maximum monthly charge of £100?

 

James

Round 1: HSBC Current account - £1050 of unlawful charges refunded before even filing my claim! (August 2006)

Round 2: HSBC Current account (again!) - £275 refunded after preliminary letter! (June 2007)

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Whatever their claimed maximum ... the last two months have cost me £700 plus interest.

 

::insert the expletive of your choice here::

 

Don't worry ... it's coming back. I've also been in touch with a nice friendly journo who's pitched the The Gruniad and the BeeB. Charges for a service are one thing. What this bank is doing to me is something else.

 

It's an old saying that a bank is someone who will lend you an umbrella when the sun is out and ask for it back when it's raining. The HSBC don't do that - they turn on a firehose (copyright Soundbites'R'Us).

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I don't know of any limits with the banks I have banked with regarding charges - apart from the sky.

If you feel that we have helped you, or you would like to help keep this web site running so that others can continue to get their money back, please click the donate button at the top of the forum.

Advice & opinions of Dave, The Bank Action Group and The Consumer Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.

 

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Add me as your friend on FaceBook - I need all the friends I can get :-(

 

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=577405151

 

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Just really using this as an aide memoire, but it might also give some of you a wry smile.

 

I arrived home at around 7.15 and, before I'd got into the kitchen, my mobile rang. It was a member of staff from the HSBC call centre who failed to give her name (I really must start making notes and taking FULL names!).

 

So, the conversation went along these lines:

 

::security questions and confirmation::

 

HSBC: your direct debit for your loan repayment has been declined. Would you like to give me a credit or debit card payment now?

 

Me: No, I can't give you a payment now. I am currently in dispute with the HSBC and I am waiting a response to get that dispute resolved.

 

HSBC: If you don't make a payment then there will be additional charges for non-payment levied against your account.

 

Me: My dispute is regarding the level of charges that are already being levied against that account.

 

HSBC: But you are £115.XX overdrawn.

 

Me: I understand, and the HSBC has levied in excess of £2000 worth of charges against my account in the last year. If you would like to credit my charges back to the account I will be happy to pay you. I actually hoped when you said you were from the HSBC that you had called to discuss my letter before action that was sent last week.

 

HSBC: I'm not prepared to discuss charges.

 

Me: Well, if you're not prepared to discuss the issue in hand then there really is very little for us to talk about.

 

HSBC: Would you like me to cancel the direct debits on your account?

 

Me: No. I would like my bank manager or an appropriate person to discuss this matter with me. Are you an 'appropriate person'?

 

HSBC: I am not prepared to discuss charges. I can cancel the direct debits on your account or you will incur further charges.

 

Me: I do not want you to cancel the direct debits on my account. I would like you to honour the direct debits. I would like you to return the charges that have been levied but, as you've said, you're not prepared to discuss charges.

 

HSBC: ::confirms telephone contact details for me::

 

END

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1. Welcome to the forum!!

 

2. If you are claiming back £6000 or more, you may actually be in a position to set a legal precedent with your case... as you fall outside the remit of the Small Claims track. I wish you well!!! :)

 

3. A stranger called you up, claiming to be a bank employee and asked for your security details for your bank account. You replied with your security details. Do the math. (Ever heard of phishing emails? Meet their brother).

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Proper told off for posting in the wrong place!!!

 

So, here's what I put on the other posting:

 

Hi, folks.

 

Having sent an LBA, I today received a pretty standard 'looking into the matters you have raised' letter from one of the bank's senior service quality officers.

 

Now, unfortunately, I haven't got all the firgures together yet in order to issue the claim, but expect to find time to do that over the next few days. For that reason, and also because I would love to see what response I get, I have just drafted the letter below:

 

Dear Ms. Sunderland

 

Ref: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your acknowledgement dated 12th instant.

 

As previously stated, I am looking to recover the penalty charges levied against my account. The time period stated in the letter before action that was sent has now expired.

 

However, in the interests of time and costs I am prepared to add another 7 days to that period prior to commencing proceedings.

 

If, within those 7 days, you can supply me with the cost element of the penalty charges levied then I am willing to accept the balance in full and final settlement as established by precedent.

 

In the absence of such a letter within that period, then an action will be commenced without further recourse to yourselves.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

My question(s):

 

has anyone ever managed to get a costing element out of the HSBC (or any other bank?)

 

has anyone tried this approach before?

 

has anyone any comments on this approach?

 

Many thanks for taking the time to read and, hopefully, respond.

 

(And thank you Lou for your reply to the other thread)

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My question(s):

 

has anyone ever managed to get a costing element out of the HSBC (or any other bank?)

 

has anyone tried this approach before?

 

has anyone any comments on this approach?

1: I asked them, but they wouldn't take the bait

2: As 1:

3: As BW and Dave say, you will be wasting time trying.

 

Your best bet is to stick to the timetable that everyone else is following. Ignore everything the bank says to you, unless it is an offer to settle. Depending on the level of the offer you can either accept as part settlement or reject it out of hand.

 

HSBC will do everything they can to throw you off track - DON'T let them.

 

Good luck.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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  • 12 years later...

This topic was closed on 10 March 2019.

If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support there.

If you would like to post up some information which is relevant to this particular topic then please flag the issue up to the site team and the thread will be reopened.

- Consumer Action Group

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