Maangov V HSBC ***WON***

[maangov]

No thats great, your the opposite of me - i never know where to start with a letter (yes- apart from the addresses!) so thank you very much. Now as this:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

As you are no doubt aware, the District Judge at Gloucester County Court has agreed to removal of the stay requested by yourselves. I have made many unsuccessful attempts to contact you by Letter, Fax and telephone in order to resolve this claim without the need for court action. I am very disappointed that you have failed to acknowledge my correspondence, nor make any attempt to resolve the matter as requested in the stay by District Judge Singleton. I therefore submitted an objection to the stay. The District Judge reviewed the case and removed the stay on these grounds.

It is my feeling you have no intention of defending this claim in court, and are simply procrastinating. I am sure that the courts and Judge Singleton would whole-heartedly approve of our settling this matter in a timely manner and without their further intervention.

District Judge Singleton has set a court date of July 3rd 2007 at xx:xxpm. I have prepared my court documents, and am fully prepared to attend this hearing; however am I am mindful of the vast number of claims with which you are currently dealing. Therefore in order to speedily resolve this matter, I am willing to accept the sum of £xxxx, plus removal of the default applied by the defendant.

I hope to hear from you very soon so that a reasonable conclusion to this claim might be achieved.

Please inform me of your intention to settle this claim with the utmost expediency by replying favorably to this letter, or calling me on xxxx xxxxxx, or xxxx xxxxxx

For your records, I enclose another copy of my schedule of charges. I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely

I think the board strips out the paragraph spacing.

Many Thanks for all your help

Maangov

[lateralus]

fine, just put your claim number and maangov -v- hsbc as a ref just above the dear sir.

then send it! (recorded delivery of course)

[maangov]

Woohoo - Offer today although still short - no mention of default removal, no contractual interest (statutory though) plus confidentiality clause.

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE SAVE AS TO COSTS

Dear Sir

Maangov -v- HSBC Bank plc

Claim Number: xxx

We are instructed by HSBC Bank Plc in respect of the claim you have recently issued in relation to charges levied on your accounts xxxx and xxxx in the period xx January xxxx to x February xxxx.

You are seeking to claim the portion of overdraft interest which you claim was caused solely by the application of the charge. In order that we may investigate this further please confirm the calculation you have used to calculate this portion of your claim.

In any event you will be aware that even without the charges applied you would have incurred overdraft interest and it is a basic condition of borrowing that you should pay interest on monies borrowed. Should you wish to pursue this avenue of your claim, please confirm to us the legal basis, together with supporting case law, for recovery of debit interest applied to your account whilst it was in a state of overdraft. For the avoidance of doubt, no offer will be made in relation to such overdraft interest.

HSBC Bank Plc is entirely confident that its charges are reasonable, are properly and fully disclosed in its terms and conditions and published price list and you must have been aware that you would incur such charges depending upon how you managed your financial affairs. HSBC Bank Plc is confident that it was entitled to apply these charges and that it would successfully resist your claim in the Courts.

However, our client is mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costs associated with litigation in the small claims regime.

For those commercial reasons alone, and without any admission of liability whatsoever, HSBC Bank Plc is prepared to make an ex gratia payment to you in the sum of £xxxx.xx. That payment is made in full and final settlement of your claims arising from the charges applied to your account in the period referred to above. It includes statutory interest on the charges to be refunded to the date of this letter, and the Court fees you have paid.

By accepting this payment you agree not to make any other claims relating to charges for the period stipulated above. HSBC also, reasonably, requires your confirmation that you will treat this payment as confidential.

If you accept this proposal please sign and return the enclosed copy of this letter to us and we will arrange for a refund to be made to you.

If you do not accept our client's offer, and your Claim proceeds to a hearing and the Court decides our client's charges are illegal, which is denied, it is our confident belief that the amount offered by our client is the maximum you can reasonably expect to recover. Therefore, before incurring further legal costs, we strongly suggest you obtain legal advice from a qualified practitioner. If you do not, and our client is obliged to incur the cost of attending at Court, we reserve the right to adduce this letter in evidence that

the errors in your claim have been brought to your attention

and it is unreasonable that the matter be brought to a hearing.

If the Court accepts our representations, it is possible you may be ordered to pay our client's costs. In this respect, we reserve the right to adduce this letter, together with any enclosed schedule of calculations, if and when the question of costs is considered.

You will be aware that your Claim has been listed by the Court for hearing on 3 July 2007 If you wish to avoid the inconvenience and cost of attending the hearing, please return your acceptance within 5 days and we will arrange for the hearing to be cancelled.

Yours faithfully

DG SOLICITORS

 

So now i'm scared! I'm starting to doubt my calculations, as they say i have errors in my claim .

 

For the HSBC CC I have used Vamps compounded contractual, and mindzai's 1.9 for the current account. Using these, i calculate their offer as £450 short if i accept statutory (probably because i''m also claiming the overdraft interest they've charged me on my charges).

 

So: Am i likely to get the remainder? How do i reply to their letter?

 

Will someone be willing to check my files?

 

Please help - i'm getting worried now! So close, i don't want to lose it!

 

Thanks

MA

[HSBCrusher]

Dont go to court on CI alone.

 

Stick it out for

charges

interest charges on the charges alone (they always quibble with this one)

the 8%

oh, not forgtting the deault removal.

 

and you will get it, stick to your guns.

If they hve a better way of calculating the interest they can show it to you.... but you are entitled to it!

once they offer this, take it and run.

 

enjoy

[maangov]

Thanks for the advice crusher,

 

How do i avoid going to court on CI alone? Should i refuse the amount, or accept as part payment?

 

I will hold out for charges, interest on charges, overdraft interest due to charges alone, and the default removal (this is my main concern). Is this what your saying?

 

 

Hoping i can get this before the prelim next tuesday!

 

MA

[lateralus]

just write a nice letter back saying you will accept that as partial payment but you intend to continue with the court claim for the remainder. point out that they have not mentioned the default removal, point out that you have calculated your claims according to a legitimate formula and feel confident that presented to a judge, your claim will be seen as reasonable. tell them the hearing is very close and you will accept xxxx.xx...blah, blah, and the other stuff we've used in the nudges. and give them email, mobile phone, land phone, etc. for use in contacting you before the date of the hearing which is next week.

 

 

get it off tomorrow - in fact - i'd email and send hard copy recorded delivery.

you understand what crusher is saying? if they offer everything but still not the ci - then accept.

[HSBCrusher]

thanks latty... as ever tyding up after me...

[lateralus]

thot your computer was broken!

[maangov]

Thanks guys, This sound ok?

 

26th June 2007

Re: xxxx - v - HSBC

Account No’s: xxxxx (Current)

xxxx (Credit Card)

Claim No: xxx

Your Ref: xxxx

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter dated 25th June 2007. I respectfully decline your offer of £2003.44 as settlement of my claim. I will accept the sum offered only as part settlement, and I intend to continue my claim for the remainder.

 

My claim is for £3158 plus court costs of £220.00 and removal of default applied by the defendant, as outlined in my Particulars of Claim.

You state you are unable to account for the portion of overdraft interest caused solely by application of the charge. This sum has been calculated according to a legitimate formula, and I am confident that if presented to a judge, will be seen as reasonable. The amounts in respect to this have been clearly broken down in the schedules included with all my correspondence.

You have also made no mention of default removal. This is also clearly mentioned in all correspondence, and my particulars of claim.

As you rightly confirm, District Judge Singleton has set a court date of July 3rd 2007 at xxxxx. I have prepared my court documents, and am fully prepared to attend this hearing; however am I am mindful of the vast number of claims with which you are currently dealing. Therefore in order to speedily resolve this matter, I am willing to accept the sum of £3370, plus removal of the default applied by the defendant.

I hope to hear from you very soon so that a reasonable conclusion to this claim might be achieved.

Please inform me of your intention to settle this claim with the utmost expediency by replying favourably to this letter, or calling me on xxxx xxxx or xxxxxx.

For your records, I enclose another copy of my schedule of charges. I look forward to hearing from you.

I understand crusher - CI isn't that strong an argument. I'm also a little concerned about default removal. How far should i hang on to get that! You see if i accept the full amounts, would i just end up in court claiming the default removal, as the rest has been settled?

[Castlebest]

Be careful of CI now, there has been some president set against it being claimed

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/97691-contractual-interest-precedent-lost.html

 

From a new claim point of view I think CI is now a dead duck.

 

pete

[maangov]

Ok Guys, Had this fax today:

 

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your letter dated 27 June 2007. We note that although you state you have prepared your papers in readiness for the hearing on 3 July, you have not served us with copies and accordingly, any papers not previously supplied may be considered by the Court to be inadmissible.

In addition to the charges passed to your account, it appears you have also included a claim for overdraft interest passed while your account was in debit. It is accepted that, if you borrow money, you will be charged interest. If you believe otherwise, please forward details of the legal authorities on which you intend to rely.

Also, it appears you are claiming compounded interest at a rate in excess of the prescribed statutory limit of 8% per annum.

For the sake of good order, we enclose a copy of the recognised authority Westdeutsche Landesbank v Islington Borough Council (1996) 2 All ER 961. This authority clearly confirms that the Court has no powers to award compounded interest

We also note that you have not supplied details of the method you have used to calculate the interest element of your claim. You merely state that details of the interest have been provided on the various schedules you have previously supplied. However, your schedules contain figures. They do not show calculations or method. Simply to say that "if presented to a judge......" is not

acceptable as you are required to prove each and every part of your claim and evidence the veracity of it.

We will bring these facts to the attention of the Court when it considers our proposed representations regarding our client's efforts to settle this matter amicably. It will also be represented that your account was consistently overdrawn during the period of your claim, and would still have been overdrawn even without the application of the charges.

It is evident that a substantial part of your claim is flawed in law. Therefore, before incurring further costs we would suggest that you obtain qualified legal guidance on your position and the offer that OUT client has made. if you do not, our client will represent to the Court that you have unreasonably rejected it's offer which, in actuality, reflects the total charges passed to your account during the period of your claim together with statutory interest at 8% per annum, and the Court fees you have paid.

Tt is our confident view that, as we believe you will be unable to prove your exaggerated claim, the Court may well grant the costs of the hearing to our client- If this is the case, any such costs will be deducted from the amount to be paid to you imder the terms of our clients settlement offer.

We are unsure to what you refer when you refer to "removal of the default". In any event, we would argue that, as for almost the whole of the period of your claim your account was overdrawn without authority any referral to the Credit Reference Agencies that may have been made would be entirely legitimate.

Even if the Court considers our client's charges to be unlawful, which is denied, in the light of these facts, we invite you to reconsider our client's offer as we confidently believe that it represents the most that you can reasonably expect to recover in your claim.

You should also note that we reserve the right to adduce this letter at the hearing when the Court considers the question of costs.

Yours faithfully

 

Where do i stand now? I have a contact name and number, however i can't now do this until Monday!

 

I am going to conceede and accept the 8%. However i still believe i should be entitled to the overdraft interest i was charged on these charges. Should i give in on this?

 

Also they are saying they will hit me for costs! They are the ones that left it this late. I'm now running round like an idiot trying to get all this sorted, while at work!

 

Do i have to submit a bundle for a prelim hearing?

 

This is now all way to scary!

 

Please help!

 

MA

[lateralus]

i've asked livelylad to pop around and give some advice.

[maangov]

Thanks . I can see a stressfull weekend coming on!

[lateralus]

you must be sitting on top of the computer - try to relax a little - the other offer is still on the table and if that's worst case scenario - ok - you are 2k better off - just give ll a chance to see my pm and get around to reading this - go drink a glass of wine!

[maangov]

lol! Thanks. I've been pretty calm about everything up until now. It's just when you get a letter telling you your all wrong, you start to doubt yourself and your calculations! At least i've got the weekend to sort it i suppose!

 

Thanks again *takes deep breath*

[livelylad]

I have only skipped the last few posts so bear with me.

 

The letter is designed to scare you, some of it is correct but most of it is rubbish. If they have offered you all your charges plus the court fees and the 8% interest then you really should accept. I believe that you are claiming overdraft interest, you can only reclaim the amount that is a direct result of a charge so please be precise with these figures. They are trying to call your bluff, as long as you are prepared then you will be fine. Contact them on Monday and reiterate your position I am sure they will blink first. If they were that confident why are they trying to settle

[lateralus]

maangov - i went back and read your court directions - the original with the stay which you got put aside - but you didn't post your court directions -

can you post them just so we can check them - leave out the personal stuff - i just want to see - what kind of hearing and what, if anything, it says to supply when - i don't see why they comment on your not sending them anything for court and they will point it out - i think that, too, is a big bluff - but can you post the directions up for me, please.

 

ok, obviously having another senior moment - as you quite clearly put it there for me already!!!

so, it's a prelim - and gary says this about prelims;

 

 

Prelim/Directions hearing

 

 

Similar to an allocation hearing, but usually allocation will have already been decided. The main purpose of these hearings is for the judge to make directions or other orders, narrow the issues, and otherwise decide how the claim is to proceed. The exact reason for a Prelim hearing should be stated at the top of the order.

 

 

You won't need your full bundle for any of the above hearings - its not the 'final' hearing so you won't have to argue your case as such. However, it is a good idea to make sure you brush up your knowledge of the basis of your claim, in case any of the issues are discussed or the judge asks you any general questions. The judge could also attempt to get the parties to agree to a settlement at these types of hearings.

 

 

Stuff to take with you;

Allocation hearing Witness Statement

Draft order for directions &

Reason's why they should be ordered

Copy of this order - page 1 & page 2 (to demonstrate that other courts are already routinely ordering those directions in small claims cases)

Statement of evidence (to refer to if necessary)

*Copy of the text of the Lincoln 'abuse' order

*List of settled cases

 

 

*Optional - take if you want to show it to the judge and politely suggest that a similar order may be appropriate in your claim.

 

 

Useful threads;

Stan1 v Lloyds

swilliams v Lloyds

 

 

 

 

 

nothing in there says you need to send it to dg before you take it to court.

i think we called this a sort of mini bundle - you can leave out some of the court stuff in item 4 of my court bundle for dummies - but personally - i'd take all the rest of it - 3 copies, bound (i just mean each in a folder held together at the side)

 

 

 

and i'm probably asked this before as well but here goes again- are you super, super sure you used the advanced spreadsheet to calculate the overdraft interest? if so, then like crusher always says - it's a big game of chicken to see who swerves first -

i think gary is right - you send them a sort of ok - see you in court type of letter and get all your stuff ready and there you go.

 

i do think your one conciliation should be the con.int.

see what your figure would be if you drop it and just ask for charges, overdraft interest, interest at 8% on those plus court fees (filing and aq). see what you get - and perhaps rejig your letter to show that you would accept that figure - and i think that makes you look very reasonable to the judge.

[maangov]

Thanks guys for taking the time to read over.

 

I think what's best is for me to sleep on it, and take a fresh look tomorrow! I'll drop the CI, and decide what to do about the overdraft interest tomorrow. I'm keen not to lose my offer, but then again, i'm really miffed that they make they so long and drawn out. It's taken 7 months to get this far.

 

I'll prepare a reply, and my court bundle in the morning. Thanks again chaps, it's really reassuring to know there's people behind you. THanks

 

MA

 

As a final note - my overdraft charges were based on the advanced spreadsheet calculations. Amounts i'm claiming are solely down to overdraft interest on the charges alone.

[lateralus]

i'm happy with the o/d interest if you are.... so

yes, sleep on it -

i'll be curious if you put a total up without the ci - see how close their offer is.

[maangov]

Hi Guys,

I have tried to draft a letter that accepts their amounts, but also says i want the overdraft interest and default. It hopefully also sounds like a halfway attempt at resolving this matter. Please can you review it so that i can ring them on Monday to discuss, and then email this across to them:

Dear Sir

 

 

Thank you for your fax dated 29th June 2007.

I note that your offer of settlement is still short of my total claim amount. I am willing to revise my claim, in order to attempt a speedy resolution.

I am happy to drop my claim for contractual interest, and will accept an offer with 8% statutory interest. For these reasons, I will accept a sum of £2668.47, which reflects £2003.44 in charges debited including 8% statutory interest, plus £665.03 in overdraft interest debited from my account due to these charges, including 8% statutory interest. I also require removal of the default applied by the defendant.

As previously explained, these interest calculations have been based on a legitimate formula, which has calculated only the proportion of interest charged that is attributable to those charges. My claim does not include any interest charged against the remainder of my overdraft balance. I am confident that this will be seen as reasonable when presented to a judge. If you have any alternative methods of calculating these interest amounts, or any calculated amounts, I invite you to present these to me.

I have prepared my court documents, and am fully prepared to attend the hearing on July 3rd, should you be unwilling to settle this matter at this time.

Please inform me of your intention to settle this claim with the utmost expediency by contacting me on XXXX XXXXXX

Yours faithfully,

Does it sound ok? Anything i should add/remove or rejig? (i havent accepted or rejected)

As for my calculations lat, i calculate charges + 8% to be 2007.93. So they are about right, give or take a fiver. My calculations for interest due to overdraft on charges, is £559.10 plus £105.93 interest at 8%.

So holding out for the overdraft interest is worth another £665.03 to me.

Hope you can advise. Thanks

MA

[Castlebest]

Looks good to me Maan, would fax it if you can because your seriously running out of time now

 

pete

[maangov]

Cheers pete,

 

Only problem is i have no fax machine! Will speak to the chap in DG and suggest emailing to him. Can always print out, sign and scan back in if needed.

 

Otherwise i tried to find an online fax company. They all charge monthly though, which is quite expensive.

 

MA

[freakyleaky]

You can find a fax machine in some libraries and news agents.

[lateralus]

and schools if you've any connections to one - lots of places which do copies also fax. basically, i'd email - and i think i'd add those last bits we always put on acceptance letters -

 

 

Were you to agree to offer me xxxx.xx for this claim

I would then be able to accept your offer as full and final settlement only for this claim of bank charges made on my account between xx/xx/xx and xx/xx/xx(dates of first and last charge) and specifically for those charges included in this claim.

I reserve the right to claim for any other charges not specifically itemised in this claim.

 

I would accept this offer without prejudice and I would reserve the right to make any further claims should you apply future charges that may be considered unlawful under common law or in violation of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 or Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

 

I will be willing to withdraw my claim upon receipt of unconditional full settlement of my claim.

 

I am also not prepared to agree to any confidentially clauses you try to impose, unless of course your client wishes to make an offer of due consideration in addition to the amount of £xxxxx, in order to be afforded this privilege by myself.

 

I trust that you will find this arrangement acceptable.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

 

up to you if you want to add any of that.

nearly there - keep at them - i think you giving in on the ci might turn the corner for you.

[Castlebest]

Most high street business's will fax for you for a few pence a sheet, but email is good too.

 

pete