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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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Reclaim course fees - AA/BSM for training / support to become a driving instructor


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Seeking a career change after accepting a redundancy from my previous position as headteacher, I paid approx. £2k to the AA/BSM for training / support to become a driving instructor, with a view to becoming an AA driving school franchisee. 

 

From my research I had assumed that it would take about a year to complete the training and I had planned to subsidise myself from my savings and supply teaching. 

 

Unfortunately, mandatory requirements to obtain disclosures and register with the dvsa took much longer than anticipated as did the time it would take to book a slot to sit the part 1 theory aspect of the course. 

 

It was clear that my budget would not be sufficient to support my family with the length of time that my training was in all likelihood going to take. In response to this information it was clear that I would need to look for more teaching work. 

 

I received an offer of work on a 24 month contract commencing August 2021 in Hong Kong which was too good to refuse and this would require me to travel out there mid-July 2021.

 

I contacted the coordinator of AA training and explained my situation; that in spite of my firm initial intentions to complete the training I had been forced to re-evaluate what I was doing because of the unforeseen impact of the coronavirus pandemic. After this discussion the AA agreed to suspend my training until I returned from Hong Kong.

 

Although I initially accepted this I reconsidered and made contact again to suggest that £2k was a lot of money to pay out and leave sitting and with a number of outlay costs when I would arrive in Hong Kong it would be of great help to have this money refunded to help with these.

 

In spite of the course coordinator asking me to email a request to seek a refund I have been refused.

 

The AA terms and conditions do indicate that all fees paid are non refundable but am of the opinion that this year has been such an unpredictable year with the pandemic creating difficulties with being able to even get started on the course that there should be a greater level of flexibility in their application. With no formal training yet received I think that the AA’s position is unfair. 

 

Should I continue to request a refund?

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Reclaim course fees - AA/BSM for training / support to become a driving instructor

did you pay the whole lot upfront?

 

Driving Instructor Training Courses | AA Driving School (theaa.com)

 

how far are you into it?

 

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I paid it all by up front in September. As it stands I have received some text books and nothing more.

I can’t begin the driving training properly until I pass the theory test which is something that students arrange independently. 

 

In all the excitement I can’t recall the t’s and c’s

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OK, just to clarify then, if you had successfully completed the training you would have worked as a self-employed driving instructor? ie you would be running your own one-person business, not an employee of AA/BSM? If I recall correctly you would have been in business on your own account running a BSM Franchise? That's the way it used to work when I had some involvement with them years ago (not as a driving instructor).

 

The reason I am asking is because some of the law applying to consumer contracts can be different to the law applying to business-to-business contracts.

Edited by Ethel Street
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its a franchise so self employment 

see the link i posted earlier

 

one of its bit says.

 

Have you got what it takes?

Our mission is to guide you, at your own pace, to become a qualified DVSA approved driving instructor.

  • Have a calm and patient manner and enjoy teaching others?
  • Professional, organised and disciplined?
  • Want to be your own boss?
  • Willing to work hard to develop your own business?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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My hope was that the impact of covid on my ability to progress with the training and hence my need to change my plans might be reason to not be so rigid in their application of the t’s & c’s. 
 

 

 

Are the T’s & C’s fair? That’s really what I’m asking. 

Edited by gaterguts1
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I see that the page dx100 linked has a link to the standard t&c and it includes this clause

 

1.2 The Driving Instructor Training provided under this Agreement is provided for the purposes of Your trade, profession or business and your status as a customer will be interpreted accordingly.

 

So I think definitely B2B contract.

 

I guess this is the clause you referred to in Post #1

 

11.2 After the cooling off period referred to in paragraph 10.1 You may cancel the Agreement but no refund will then be due from Us to You. After two (2) years of the date of the Agreement any training not already taken will be forfeited.

 

I suspect that as it's a B2B contract there is nothing that is, legally, 'unfair' about it and you would be reliant on their goodwill. But I'm not a lawyer so will be interested to see what the experts here think.

Edited by Ethel Street
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where are they i can't find them??

1 hour ago, gaterguts1 said:

The AA terms and conditions do indicate that all fees paid are non refundable

 

but that might not be the end of it no..

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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4 hours ago, gaterguts1 said:

...

 

I contacted the coordinator of AA training and explained my situation; that in spite of my firm initial intentions to complete the training I had been forced to re-evaluate what I was doing because of the unforeseen impact of the coronavirus pandemic. After this discussion the AA agreed to suspend my training until I returned from Hong Kong.

 

Although I initially accepted this I reconsidered and made contact again to suggest that £2k was a lot of money to pay out and leave sitting ...

 

Isn't this the problem - that the OP agreed to suspend the training and (presumably) agreed to allow AA/BSM to retain the £2k?

 

Isn't this like those people who've had a flight or holiday cancelled because of Covid?  Yes, they were entitled to a refund, but... if they've agreed to accept vouchers, or some other form of credit... where does that leave them?

 

And that's before deciding whether it's a consumer or business contract.

 

Although... despite what the T&Cs may say, they can't determine what is or is not a consumer contract, can they?  By definition the OP can't be carrying out a trade or a profession because he's not qualified to do so - that's the whole point of the training in the first place.  Or are we saying that all professional and trade examinations are business to business.  Law Society exams?  Accountancy exams?  Are they all B2B?

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What troubles me is had the op not paid upfront, nothing more would be owed ... A blanket clause in the t&c's is grossly unfair 

 

i would like to think the AA had a bit of common sense here

 

whatever type of contract it is.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I’ve just sent the course coordinator a message.....

”What bothers me mostly is if I hadn’t paid all of the money up front then I could’ve withdrawn with nothing more to pay...but as it is I paid full fees upfront and so receive nothing if I withdraw. The blanket “no refund” just seems to be so unfair. I’m disappointed that there hasn’t been a consideration of a pro-rata refund. 
I’m really sorry Mark but I feel that given the amount of money involved that I’ve got no option but to escalate my request and seek support from other agencies. Eg BBC watchdog etc. 
I stress this isn’t personal...I just don’t feel that if our positions were reversed that you would accept this situation.”

 

I’m ever hopeful of reason and manners sorting things out.

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13 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

Although... despite what the T&Cs may say, they can't determine what is or is not a consumer contract, can they?  By definition the OP can't be carrying out a trade or a profession because he's not qualified to do so - that's the whole point of the training in the first place.  Or are we saying that all professional and trade examinations are business to business.  Law Society exams?  Accountancy exams?  Are they all B2B?

 

The contract can't be definitive, I agree. Ultimately a court would have to decide whether OP entered into a contract as a consumer or a trader. OP would have to show that they were a consumer as defined in the Consumer Rights Act to get the protection of consumer law - "“Consumer” means an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession.".  The comparison with law and accounantancy would be with companies providing the training rather than the exam setters, but I'd say they are B2B contracts.  In what way could studying to be a qualified accountant be a consumer activity under the CRA definition? 

 

I guess, none of us being lawyers, OP would need to get professional legal advice if he wanted to challenge the status of the contract as a B2B one and so gain the protection on consumer law.

 

I will be interested to see what AA/BSM say about the unfairness of losing all the money if you pay up front but not if you pay by installments.

Edited by Ethel Street
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I suppose that what seems counterintuitive to me is that if you need to hold a particular qualification before you can practise or engage in a particular profession or trade, that the provision of training to gain the required qualification(s) should be seen as practising or carrying out that profession or trade - and hence a business transaction - even though the trainee can't yet be doing so.

 

Does that mean that the provision of all strictly "non-educational" training for the purpose of gaining a professional or "trade" qualification is to be treated as B2B?

 

I simply have difficulty getting my head around the idea that training can be within an "... individual’s trade, business, craft or profession" when the individual is prevented from practising any trade etc precisely because they do not yet hold the required qualifications and that is why they are training in the first place.

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I see where you are coming from Manxman. The difficulty for me is that the CRA only defines two types of contracting party - a 'consumer' or a 'trader' - and they are miror image definitions. You can only be one or the other, there's no middle ground where you can be a 'not-yet-a-trader-but-a-not- a-consumer-either'.

 

(2)“Trader” means a person acting for purposes relating to that person’s trade, business, craft or profession, whether acting personally or through another person acting in the trader’s name or on the trader’s behalf.

(3)“Consumer” means an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession.

 

I find it equally counterintuitive how someone training to be a DI/Solicitor/Accountant/Doctor etc could be doing it as a 'consumer'. The consumer of a Dr's professional services must surely be a patient, not a trainee Doctor? Likewise for Driving Instructors or any other occupation?

 

We are agreed though that ultimately only a court could decide whether OP contracted as a consumer or a trader.

Edited by Ethel Street
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An unqualified doctor is the consumer of the organisation providing their medical training - likewise unqualified solicitors and accountants.  Once that trainee has qualified, they are permitted to practise their profession and to provide their services to unsuspecting consumers of those services.

 

If a trainee fails all their exams and thus is unable to qualify to practise their profession, are we saying that whilst training they are acting in a trade or profession even though as a point of fact they never actually reach the point of doing so?

 

I'm not saying my view is the correct one - just that I see a significant difference between being engaged in training in preparation to join a trade a trade or profession, and actually practising that trade or profession.  In terms of relative bargaining power, knowledge etc, the position of an unqualified trainee is really no more advantageous then that of a consumer.

 

Much as I hate the idea of seeing undergraduates as consumers of degree services provided by universities, I don't think professional trainees are any less consumers, except that the former are mostly being educated (sometimes with an element of training) and the latter are mostly being trained (often with an element of education).

 

I must admit I'd never really thought about this before reading this thread, and the idea that training to qualify to do a job was a business transaction had really never struck me.

 

What would you say was the position of an undergraduate student straight out of school starting a nursing degree?  Is that a business transaction from the law's point of view, or a consumer one?

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Interesting discussion, at what point does general education morph into professional training? I guess each case that comes before a court is fact-specific although I imagine that if OP were to consult a solicitor there's probably prior court decisions that give guidance on how courts approach the consumer or trader test. 

 

So as not to drift too far from OP's situation the AA/BSM clearly believe OP is contracting in the course of his business and the clause in their standard T&C adopts the langauge of the 'trader' definition in the CRA1.2 The Driving Instructor Training provided under this Agreement is provided for the purposes of Your trade, profession or business and your status as a customer will be interpreted accordingly. As it seems to be the basis of their business model that the people in OP's position are a business they are unlikely to agree that OP is a consumer unless OP goes to law and either finds a solicitor willing to argue the case or starts a court action himself.

 

Let's see what OP says when he gets a reply from AA/BSM about the full -vs- installments payments issue. I wondered if the standard T&C included a clause that said that installment plan payers had to pay the full amount immediately if they cancelled but I couldn't see anything like that in the T&C. There could be other payment plan documentation that covers it.

 

Another thought @gaterguts1Have you researched the government guidance on coronavirus for anything advising businesses to be flexible? Being able to cite government guidance should carry more weight than just you saying it. Unfortunately there's a lot of guidance and I'm not sure where you'd start.

Edited by Ethel Street
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Thank you for this. I had hoped for a more common sense response from the AA/BSM before now. It looks as though I’m going to need to take a good look through the coronavirus guidance from the gov. and see what might be applicable in my case. 

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On 01/01/2021 at 11:27, Ethel Street said:

 

Let's see what OP says when he gets a reply from AA/BSM about the full -vs- installments payments issue. I wondered if the standard T&C included a clause that said that installment plan payers had to pay the full amount immediately if they cancelled but I couldn't see anything like that in the T&C. There could be other payment plan documentation that covers it.

 

 

 

I wondered about that as well.  I thought that there might be something in the T&Cs to say that the FULL amount was payable - not just whatever the trainee had paid to date.  But I can't see anything either.  The T&Cs don't seem very comprehensive to be honest - I'm surprised they aren't more detailed.

 

I think the consumer/business distinction is quite interesting, but agree it may be a distraction here.

 

Having a varied academic and professional history myself and also having been involved in the commissioning and monitoring of training contracts for non-medical NHS clinical staff, I probably take a particular interest in such questions.

 

Generally I'm quite clear about where education ends and training starts!

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