Smart Meters A discussion

[tobyjugg2]

EON have been doing the same as Npower have been reported to do:

 

Sent a 'We are coming on xxxxxx to fit your smart meter

 

We notified EON that they are not fitting a smart meter and we will NEVER agree to having one fitted- end of,

op I spoke with said 'well you'll have to have one before long as the government is making it compulsory'

I just said no we wont, dont bother us or try this again or try to fit a smart meter of any kind - Is that clear enough?

 

He said its noted on the account.

[tobyjugg2]

My arguments in ascending order of importance are:

 

3. These meters are not standard, and moving suppliers can mean all sorts of issues

 

2. There are all sorts of caveats and contradictions around what data is recorded and how it is used

 

1. Some unmentionable like npower could simply get the reference wrong and switch you off, even if you aren't a customer - then everyone refuses to do anything about it as 'they didn't do it' or 'you are not our customer we cant do anything'.

Edited December 27, 2018 by dx100uk
quote

[tobyjugg2]

Hello tobyjugg2 and I'm sorry our advisor told you it was compulsory to have smart meters. It isn't. They're optional and you can refuse our offers to fit them at any time.

 

I know you're adamant about this and your account will have been noted accordingly. We still need to let you know what's happening though. This project is advancing and changing all the time and we've an obligation to continue to let our customers know about these developments in case they want to change their mind. This is particularly the case now as we're rolling out SMETS2 meters and, next year, begin remote updates to many of the SMETS1 meters we've previously installed. Part of this latest technology means customers will be able to change supplier and their meters will stay smart.

 

Malc

 

Spin it how you like:

Your organisations letter was

'we are coming to fit a smart meter on xxxxx'

not 'you can have' or 'these are available' or even 'we would like to arrange to come and fit'

 

... So if they didnt get the letter, or didn't understand it, or didnt understand their options - you arrive and fit them anyway.

 

.. Just as your telephone op tried to sell it as compulsory until I informed him I knew otherwise.

 

... These Quite clearly indicate to me a targeted POLICY of pressure and deceit - across much of the industry it would seem.

 

 

It has NEVER been compulsory for customers to have a smart (strange name given the many issues)

... although HMG did of course put some stupid 'targets' on the industry (obligations as you put them) (since changed) indicating it was more so for them .

 

You might be 'obliged' to 'inform' us - BUT we aren't obliged to be harassed or deceived

 

 

 

Also strange how these SMART meters seem to struggle when people (like me) move onto energy efficient led or cfl lighting etc

... plus many other issues

 

https://www.smart-energy.com/regional-news/europe-uk/inaccurate-smart-meters-readings/

[tobyjugg2]

Think yourselves lucky. I had no choice in the matter.

 

I live in supported housing and thanks to the EU and one of their directives that where people living in a communal setting who share equally the cost of heating and electricity, they now have to be responsible for their individual use.

 

We all had new fuse boxes with a smart meter built in but hardwired to a router so that individual use could be electronically monitored. We also had an air sourced heat pump fitted so we needed a heat meter fitted too. All well and good!?

 

This was three years ago and the system hasn't worked properly since the beginning. Smart meters failed, heat valves sticking open/closed. We have yet to have a full year of readings so that individual usage can be assessed before billing.

 

Progress!!!

 

Yes the EU demands that no-one has to pay someone elses bills, even if they choose to do so,

and like the UK ALONE has 'plans' and policies for a smart network.

Other than the requirement for people to be able to pay just for what they use, I believe nothing else is LAW - EU or UK - Please correct me if this view in wrong.

 

I expect the method of implementation was whatever was most convenient/cheapest to the people running the housing and that UK and EU growing plans for smart energy networks is 'justification' aka excuses for organisational 'policy'

I'll bet if it was cheaper to put individual meters in they would have.

 

 

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2018/03/data-protection-and-smart-meters-gdpr.html

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/smart-meters-not-needed-after-all-for-european-power-grid/

 

 

Germany dont like 'em either ...

 

 

Ah see the later post explains more re cost and policies

[tobyjugg2]

Worth a read re the drivers of smart meters

 

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/closure-of-uk-coal-and-nuclear-plants-to-create-electricity-supply-gap-of-up-to-55-by-2025

 

Trouble is its not much use without smart houses/smart fridges etc and/or individual house wiring circuits to support that

 

eg One circuit with fridges and freezers all connected that could be switched off for 15 mins or so at peak loads without affecting essentials like your TV (sic)

 

Other than that they are just data collection devices really.

[tobyjugg2]

I know much of the statements on the linked page are simply misleading at best

 

https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/about-smart-meters/what-is-a-smart-meter?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Dynamic%20ads&utm_term=smartenergygb&utm_content=Dynamic%20ads

 

but out of interest has anyone even been offered the following?

 

Quote from link, my *'s:

The data your smart meter captures about your energy usage is strongly protected by law. You have control over it, including the right to decide:

 

* how often your smart meter sends data to your energy supplier (monthly is minimum, daily or half-hourly are optional)*

 

* whether to share data with other organisations, like price comparison websites

 

* i f your supplier can use your meter readings for sales and marketing purposes.

 

Did Joe public even know these appear to be standard uses?

 

 

Anyone attempted to apply it eg Only monthly data sent, no sharing the data or using it for anything other than generating a bill? (and checked it has been applied via SAR)?

 

 

Your case would be very interesting silverfox ...

[tobyjugg2]

And the capability of disconnection!

 

:-/

Yes - and By people who seem demonstrably happy to 'mislead' when it suites their 'targets' ...

... Not the sort of people I would trust.

 

 

Keep taking regular readings folks - smart meters or not.

 

In summary, what can smart meters do for you that a far simpler, far cheaper and more personal with your data monitor cant do

 

1. Cut you off

2. Give your data to others

3. Increase your bills with the cost of rollout

4. Make it more awkward to swap suppliers - smart meters are literally dumb at that

5. Make you lazy and trust them and stop taking readings yourself when you should NOT trust them

6. Get the reading wrong (LOTS higher) when you use led or cfl lighting

7. Change your tariff without letting you know

 

Just ask (now ex) Iresa customers with smart meters how smooth its been ......

 

 

Now the positives for the customers

1. Some wont have to submit meter readings once a month or once a quarter depending on signal and compatibility

[tobyjugg2]

So what are the benefits to the customer Malc?

Well ... Apart from not having to (of course they should though) check the meter readings

... then submit them once a month or so, as I do.

 

I'll acknowledge in advance that they can more easily see how much the meter is reporting them as using, ... which a none smart meter monitor I was given 'free by a power company many years ago also does.

Other than that, they dont tell you whats using or how to reduce it do they?

 

Effectively - You are using some electricity/gas - go sort it?

 

The supplier can cut them off - justified or not (home monitor will help with that - it will show no usage if its got a battery or just be off - like the lights

 

The supplier apparently can change the tariff without notice - as reported on these forums. Does the home monitor show when a suppliers done that? Or do you just have to figure it out the old way?

 

Making changing suppliers easier is a no go as often as not they will go dumb, despite using the airwaves and that impact on your wifi router etc.

 

So what are some real benefits to the customer if any Malc?

(other than assisting risky to health and wealth and well-being 'just trust us' bone idleness?)

Edited December 27, 2018 by dx100uk
quote

[tobyjugg2]

Perhaps add some honest real world benefits to the customer in the letter?

 

Test em by listing here beforehand

We're waiting ....

Edited December 27, 2018 by dx100uk
quote

[tobyjugg2]

While we wait

 

Large industry has had the options with HV supplies to allow reductions in voltage or even shut off during peak times (and the power factor stuff really works unlike with home supplies) for decades

 

Do these smart meters allow reduction of voltage?

Don't think so - but they would be more useful to the energy infrastructure if they could stabilise and even reduce voltage - although that facility would quickly risk being abused. Probably far too costly though.

 

As far as I can see, Pretty much all other energy network benefits would only be if either:

 

* The meters included a seperate to eveything else 'switch off circuit' which supplied fridges and the like (especially kettles - no more Coro peaks) which could be shut off for 15 mins at a time - would require a few hundred quids (at least) worth of rewiring in you house though

 

or

 

* Everyone bought smart fridge freezers at massive cost that the smart meter could control - a cost to the customer of FAR more than a few hundred quid

and as we see with the smart meters themselves - what standards do they work to?

 

 

Seems to me (and I worked on early tests of smart metering 30+ years ago) these smart meters AS THEY ARE are simply a waste of effort, resources and VAST amounts of money with added built in privacy issues.

 

 

 

 

If there was a vote to

* spend 12 billion pounds on something to save you taking a meter reading once a month/quarter,

or

* build 6 geothermal power stations and make darn good starts on a couple of MASSIVE tidal bay power stations

- I know which I would vote for.

 

 

 

(and I know thats gov policy not you malc)

 

 

Note CFLs and leds often have crappy power factors.

[tobyjugg2]

Smart meters also let us know when faults arise so we can proactively fix problems and lessen the impact on customers. The meters have undergone rigorous testing and comply with EU safety, health and environmental requirements.

 

A very well presented reply malc...

 

and Interesting, I hadn't thought of that bit above and certainly should have

 

I assume that is by the meter no longer reporting to you? or is there a 'low voltage' report

... and you can feed any awol smart meter locations into the fault location software to identify where the fault probably is, the probable original of which software you would have inherited through Pgen ...

Is that still manually done as where customers call in saying they have lost power or is it automatic from the smart meter system nowadays? I would hope it has moved on considerably in the last 30 years.

 

 

Not a lot of use if the customers have chosen just monthly updates though - or do you cheat on that, or is it simply customers dont know LOL

But goodish point

 

 

Highly critical report from the spending watchdog though reported very significant over-spend expected, to NOT meet targets ...

[tobyjugg2]

"Originally Ministers had said the total cost would be £11bn, or £374 per household, paid for by consumers through higher energy bills."

 

However an (projected) extra £3bn cost would mean an extra £93 charge on each household,

 

 

"As many as 70 per cent of the 12.5 million smart meters installed so far will go ‘dumb’ if an energy customer switches supplier"

 

 

So already up to 14 billion pounds these smart meters are projected to cost

 

What a damned waste of 14 billion pounds of energy customers money (whether you want them or not)

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/23/smart-meters-rollout-labelled-a-fiasco-as-consumers-face-extra-500m-bill

"National Audit Office says that with 39m meters still to be replaced, government has no chance of hitting 2020 deadline"

 

 

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2018/11/23/smart-meter-roll-out-could-cost-households-an-extra-100/

[tobyjugg2]

Mainly Correct

I find EON to be one of the better ones I've sampled in this regard, especially compared to others like Npower who were nothing short of abusive and obnoxious. No real complaints from me in that regard.

 

BUT I found EDF to be head and shoulders above all the rest with regard to getting the billing right and refunding credit balances and reducing DD amounts automatically (as well as reasonably increasing them)

 

Do need to consider that you really need to stay with a company more than a year for them to get it right, but they really shouldn't be running up large credit balances of more than 2-3 months payments MAX at the start of winter except in truly exception circumstances. Any that do should have utterly unarguable reasons.

A credit balance in summer running to a small debit in winter should be quite normal.

 

Any that run customers at significant credit balances from the start should be penalised

 

... and Npower should not be in business IMO.

 

 

Of course, when a customer has a smart meter ... there is no excuse whatsoever.

Edited December 27, 2018 by dx100uk
quote

[tobyjugg2]

I have worked in the I.T sector and have some concerns regarding smart meters, particularly if or when the data servers are hacked and criminals obtain information

 

I think Npower just get access by default ...

God knows who else.

[tobyjugg2]

 

On time of use tariffs. Apart from the existing Economy 7/Economy 10 set-ups, we've no current plans to introduce this type of tariff. I can't speak for other suppliers though.

 

Malc

 

Malc, Surely you mean there are none of those type of tariffs offered at the moment

 

Anyone with links to the industry knows that time of use and just in time charging is planned and the industry goal.

 

Thank God the incompetent rollout of incompatible meters (at consumer expense) which will require replacing (again at Consumer cost) has slowed it down. ... Bargain at 11 billion pound plus - NOT.

 

 

On a very relevant side note

EON is seemingly still the leading light bad boy of smart meter threat'O'grams in the industry

Even your latest 'no more SVR tariff if you have a smart meter' is a turd dressed up as a cake to sidestep the expected regulations isn't it?

 

 

 

Had many customers insist that dumb smart meters are removed yet after believing they HAD to have their meter replaced due to those letters or your telephone ops?

 

 

 

Oh - and Economy 7 apparently requires about 30-40% of your usage off peak to be worth considering nowadays.

If spreading use to low usage times was really important - there's your real opportunity - so clearly it isnt.

[tobyjugg2]

Just imagine an advert

Have a free smart meter and everything you use between 12 midnight and 5 am is 20% off whatever your tariff is, everything else at whatever your normal tariff is.

 

rather than

Hey you we are installing a smart meter

the government says you must

else you will pay double

It will give you free money

believe us its true

 

 

 

My options actually do

* Give free money

* Incentivise off peak usage without having to work out if its actually worthwhile let alone going to cost you

- even economy 7 doesn't do that.

[tobyjugg2]

Malc, Surely you mean there are none of those type of tariffs offered at the moment

.

 

Correction

Malc, Surely you mean there are none of those type of tariffs offered by EON (and most) at the moment

[tobyjugg2]

For info (first one is well worth a look for anyone)

 

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2017/1/10/the-first-time-of-use-tariff-in-the-uk-will-it-save-users-money

 

 

"Very roughly, a typical household taking the new Green Energy package will pay about £570 for electricity compared to about £580 for ... the cheapest mainstream supplier at the moment"

 

"Very gradually, new technologies such as smart meters are making it possible for electricity retailers to introduce ‘time of use’ (ToU) pricing for homes and small businesses, helping to bring prices closer to costs."

 

 

 

https://www.gocompare.com/gas-and-electricity/time-of-use-tariffs/

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/gas/retail-market/market-review-and-reform/smarter-markets-programme

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/investigating-potential-impacts-time-use-tariffs-domestic-electricity-customers-smarter-markets-programme

 

 

https://theenergyst.com/eon-to-end-standard-variable-tariffs-for-customers-that-agree-to-a-smart-meter/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-4946078/Eon-fire-smart-meter-bullying.html

 

 

 

Did you know...?

 

 

• Smart meters should help record customer usage in a more in-depth and accurate manner and speed up the process of reporting this usage back
  

 

 

 

"Dynamic tariffs have even been proposed, something that could see energy prices changing at any time with customers alerted by warnings such as text messages"

perhaps they send you a message, at work, where you cant use your phone, saying 'in 30 mins your tariff will be 8 quid a kw instead of the off peak lower charge 2 you expect ....

 

 

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/pros-and-cons-of-smart-meters-1182648

 

Advantages for Electric Companies

 

 

 

• Eliminates manual monthly meter readings
  
• Monitors the electric system much more quickly
  
• Provides real-time data that is useful ........
  
• Enables dynamic pricing, which raises or lowers the cost of electricity based on demand
  

 

• Avoids the capital expense of building new power plants (but only with dynamic pricing/dynamic disconnection implemented)
  
• Helps to optimize income with existing resources (but only with dynamic pricing/dynamic disconnection implemented)
  
• Makes it possible to use power resources more efficiently (but only with dynamic pricing/dynamic disconnection implemented)
  

 

 

Advantages for Users of Electricity

 

** After the electric company has fully installed its advanced metering infrastructure, smart meters offer the following benefits to electricity customers ***:

 

 

• Far greater (and more detailed) feedback regarding energy use (for suppliers YES - but for users realistically unlikely - and certainly little more than you can get with 'dumb' monitors)
  
• Eliminates manual monthly meter readings
  
  
• Enable consumers to adjust their habits in order to lower electricity bills
  
• Reduces the number of blackouts and system-wide electricity failures (but only with dynamic pricing driving changed usage/dynamic disconnection ('planned' blackouts) implemented - aka MORE blackouts)
  

 

 

 

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/smart-meters-not-needed-after-all-for-european-power-grid/

 

"There are other more efficient ways than smart meters to help develop intelligent power grids, said industry delegates at the annual convention of Europe’s electricity association Eurelectric, held in Vilnius"

[tobyjugg2]

On the letters, as promised (post #24 - 21 Nov 18), I'm continuing to feedback these and similar comments to senior management. Changes have already been made with others in the pipeline and more to come.

 

Malc

 

What changes would they be Malc?

 

 

Test em by listing here beforehand

We're waiting ....

 

and still waiting ....

 

 

 

 

 

My aunt's house has a smart meter - fitted by the current supplier so sense says they should have accurate data and would tailor her monthly payment to her actual usage.

 

Why then do I have to go through the annual fight to get hundreds of pounds repaid to her?

 

Is that with EON hightail?

[tobyjugg2]

Don't think so. Think it's BG but I'd have to check. I can't see a single advantage for her in having the thing but she didn't know there was any choice. I don't see any disadvantage either to be fair as nothing has changed - just a complete waste of time (and money).

 

I know its a pain in the rear,

but if your aunt believed that she had to have it fitted due to the wording of a letter or telephone conversation from whoever is the supplier,

... raise a formal complaint based on that and tell them you want it replaced with a normal meter - and replaced, not just that they have 'disabled' the features.

[tobyjugg2]

 

What is it you would like to see 'tested.... here beforehand' tobyjugg2?

 

Malc

 

The actual content/wording of the letters.

 

You might think its a hiding to nothing, but I'm sure that any criticism would be intended as either constructive or sheer outrage

... both of which would surely be a valuable ' testing of the waters' before someone ends up going toe to toe with your organisation over some (further?) outrageous and arguably inappropriate communication?

... and you can of course ignore any opinion just as if you hadn't tested the waters ... as apparently has been to date.

 

'We've changed the wording' tells us nothing, and what we know of prior letters and contacts warrants no 'trust'

 

You have already gained increasingly poor news items and customer opinion that you need to turn around - not get worse ...

[tobyjugg2]

She's very old and just wouldn't have argued - wouldn't even have known what it was. I simply don't understand how a supplier can install them and then continue to transfer money which isn't owed from a customer's bank account into their own. What's the point of the things?

 

Who's the supplier hightail? ... name and shame - and consider moving.

 

(sounds like Npower or Scottish power to me)

 

Note that the cheaper deals (inc EON) are vanishing at the moment, and some deals pay a monthly amount because of having a smart meter.

 

 

Now theres a thought:

What if a customer moves to a smart meter 'enhanced' deal and they already have a smart meter thats not compatible ..... :-/

[tobyjugg2]

Pretty sure it's British Gas and I would move her except she is now going full time into a care home. It's been on the cards for a while which is what led to my inertia.

 

Heck

Just don't tell them that and give the boat a good rock for them. See what they say.

 

Formal complaint:

 

decent old lady who's always paid her bills bullied into smart meter, assured it would save her money, then continued to be overcharged and needing relative to get overcharges back each year ....

 

papers would love that - but anyway - Make 'em sweat. They deserve it.

[tobyjugg2]

Of interest maybe

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?492403-eon-smart-meter-not-smart&p=5170490#post5170490

 

yes perhaps Malc could help when he sees it.

 

In the meantime, as EON appear to be afraid or unwilling to post their 'amended' SMART meter threat'o'grams errr sales leaflet, infomercial, ??? ...

 

any one here had one they can upload for us?

 

 

They are of course still threat'o'grams based on the only evidence we have so far ..

[tobyjugg2]

Out of interest, what is EON's policy regarding replacement should the display unit (not the meter) go faulty?

The bit that enables you to be 'more in control of how much you use'

 

Do they replace it?

Free of charge?