NPM PCN claimform - overstay Un-adopted Rd entrance to old St Edmunds Hosp Northampton - *** Claim Struck Out+Costs***

[parkingbill2018]

I parked in a no through road which leads to the entrance to a supermarket car park and a derelict building site, which after many years of standing empty is finally being redeveloped.

 

The road is accessed from a main road, where there are normal road markings and no signs stating that you are entering a private road and there is No Parking or any charge if you do park in it. Shoppers often park in this road for a short time whilst they go the supermarket, even when there are spaces available on the store car park.

 

One day I parked in the road because the supermarket car park was full.

I parked for less than 10 minutes behind a car that was already there and didn’t think anymore of this until

 

I received a PCN in the post from a private parking management company.

I was shocked that this stated I had parked in an un-adopted road which was no parking allowed and had a £100 parking charge. The council confirmed the road is un-adopted whilst the site is being developed.

 

The company had taken photos of the car I was driving, which was parked alongside a derelict building in the road. The signs stated Attention Private Land – The site is managed & operated for No Parking at anytime and that there is a parking charge of £100.

 

These signs are not in the line of sight of a car driver and when you leave the car to go to the entrance of the supermarket they are behind you and there are no signs in your line of travel.

 

You might see the signs on your way back to your car, but that is obviously too late. The signs are on the perimeter of the building site, which the derelict building is part of, and they refer to “Land” and “Site”, so you would assume they refer to the building site being developed, and not the road.

 

If the road is included then there should be a sign at the entrance stating this is a Private Road and the terms and conditions that apply, as was in the Supreme Court case Parking Eye Vs Beavis.

 

To make matters worse the signs on the derelict building are not illuminated and are less visible at dusk when I parked and when it is completely dark they cannot be seen at all!

 

I disputed the charge with the management company because there were no signs at the entrance of the road and the ones on the building alongside which I parked had not been visible and referred to the building land/site. This was rejected because the IPS had approved the signs and location of them.

 

I tried to appeal to the Site Owner/Director of the company who are developing the site, but he ignored my letters. His company finally did respond after my Father wrote to them.

 

They confirmed that they had appointed a parking management company to control misuse of their land. I and other shoppers, unaware of that this is a private road with no parking, are hardly misusing the land by parking here for a few minutes!

 

Even Police have been seen parking here and I am aware that at least one unmarked Police car was issued with a PCN.

 

The management company have had many requests from the Supermarket store management and people like me to improve the signage and/or paint double yellow lines, to remove any ambiguity, but they have repeatedly refused.

 

One store manager even complained that an employee of the Management company was parking by the derelict building, adding further to the misleading situation. In fact

 

I am sure it was one of their employees whom was parked in front of me when I was issued with my PCN. It certainly was the same type and colour of car that I have seen driving around checking for parked cars.

 

My Father did a study and saw 13 cars park there in one hour one lunch time, including an armed Police woman!

 

I foolishly tried the IAS appeal process, knowing that I only had a 20% chance of being successful, because it is well known that this is not independent at all.

 

True to form my appeal was rejected, even though I had pointed out and given proof that the evidence given by the management company was incomplete and the site plans and photos showing the signs were over two years old and not what were in place when my alleged parking offence took place.

 

The Arbitrator dismissed these facts and still rejected my appeal and asked me to pay the charge within 14 days.

 

I informed the Parking Management Company that I did not accept the decision of the IAS and the reasons why.

 

I stated that I would not be paying the charge and requested that they followed the correct legal process and take me to court and not waste time and money passing this onto a debt recovery company.

 

My letters, including to the MD were ignored and the charge was increased to £160, to cover admin charges.

 

I heard nothing for four months then out of the blue I received a letter from a Debt Recovery company asking for the £160 to be paid.

 

I have denied the debt, and asked them to ask their client to take me to court, so that this can be decided fairly. Their response states if the account remains unpaid it will progress to the legal stage and be passed to the solicitors.

 

I would welcome further advice to what I have already received. This situation has been very upsetting and stressful for my family and I, especially when I am an honest, law abiding citizen, who has not committed any parking offences before. In the meantime, roll on the passing of the Private Parking Bill!

Edited October 17, 2018 by dx100uk
Spacing

[parkingbill2018]

I have told the debt recovery company I will no longer be engaging with them and if they or their Solicitor's try to engage with me any more I will report them for harrassment.

 

I will now only engage with my local County Court.

My Father and I have have already spent many hours on this case and so far no return!

 

Thanks for your response.

Edited October 17, 2018 by dx100uk
Quote

[parkingbill2018]

Obviously you have not seen any of my letters, but I have spent a lot of time researching this and speaking to CAB, Trading Standards and a Solicitor and I have never heard of a 10 minute grace on speculative invoices.

Is a PCN an invoice?

If it is and I have missed it, so have many others and most people parking in this road do so for only the grace period.

 

I am going to ignore them now and only react if they follow the proper legal process

[parkingbill2018]

I know my handling of this situation was with hindsight not the best.

When my Mum received the PCN, as it was her car, she didn't have to rush and give them my details so easily.

Then I should have just denied the charge and ask them to take me to court straight away.

 

I know someone who did this and the last time I spoke to him, 5 months after the alleged offence, he had heard no more.

Mind you I had the silence treatment for 4 months.

 

Interesting and disappointing to hear you say the new Parking Bill will not make a difference to situations like this.

I will look at the link later when I am on my PC.

Thanks for all your advice so far.

[parkingbill2018]

I clicked on the link and did not see a form to fill in, just a closed thread with some questions for 2 types of tickets issues (on windscreen & through the post).

 

I purposely did not name the companies involved because I did not want to harm my case if this goes to court.

[parkingbill2018]

Yes I see that. When I signed up for this group I was advised by the site owners not to use my real name. If I upload the details and documents as stated I might as well have used my real name!

 

The NTK was received within 14 days, so cannot get them on that.

 

The NTK mentioned the schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012, so I cannot get them on that either.

 

Yes I appealed to the Management company and then to the IAS and both were rejected.

 

I can supply all documents, but not on a public forum as this will identify who I am. Sorry, but I do not want to do that, eve if that makes me a secret squirrel.

 

I guess I will just have to play their games on my own!

[parkingbill2018]

Here is the entrance of the un-adopted road from the highway

 

pic1.pdf

[parkingbill2018]

Someone asked for a photo of the entrance from the highway.

[parkingbill2018]

Pictures for Ericsbrother.

 

The Parking sign & signs on wall of derelict building which drivers park alongside. Bear with me on other stuff.

 

As previously stated there isn't one of these or any other sign at the entrance to this road stating it is a Private Road or the Terms and Conditions.

 

There used to be one on the end of this building facing drivers as they entered the road, but this was too far back (you can see it on the entrance of the road photo) and the font size is too small to read.

 

However this has now been removed when new fencing was put up, so the parking company have made matters even worse!!!!!

 

 

 

pix1 .pdf

[parkingbill2018]

I did answer most of them. Just need to sort out the documents to not have any personal details in one PDF

 

To recap

 

1 Date of the infringement January this year

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] It was received after 3 days of the alleged offence

 

3 Date received Received 5 days after the alleged offence

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] Yes it does

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes 3 photographs taken by a parking attendant, not automatic cameras

 

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up your appeal] Yes to the Management Company and following the corrupt/biased IAS process.

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up .Yes, both were rejected.

 

Documents to follow.

 

7 Who is the parking company? NPM

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Un-adopted Road (not the car park at the rear), entrance to St Edmunds Hospital (being developed into a dementia centre/home), Northampton.

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. IPS/IAS

 

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here: Site owner/developer, Debt Recover company.

[parkingbill2018]

Just added a photo of the new red fencing that covers up the end of the building where there used be a sign. There is a new sign, but this is not facing drivers as they enter the un-adopted road.

 

4 .pdf

[parkingbill2018]

There is no new sign as far as I know.

There is just new fencing put up, same signs.

 

I will visit the site and confirm this and report back.

The one I posted here is the one uploaded to the IAS as evidence.

 

Someone mentioned on here about a 10 minute grace period.

I don't see that is relevant for a NO PARKING area.

 

Yes there may be grace time on a parking time paid for to allow for difference in peoples time devices, which may be 10 minutes, although I read on I think this forum NPM gives 5 minutes.

 

Sorry you think getting information is like pulling teeth.

I do have a full time demanding job were I have to work long hours and this business of posting stuff in public on the internet is new to me so I am therefore treading cautiously.

 

Sorry. I see other threads on this subject were people have been requested to post document etc. and that was the end of the thread (no documents posted)!

I appreciate you want to help but I would prefer to PM anyone with the documents required.

 

If you want to help is that not acceptable?

I certainly intend to go public (media) in a big way if this company does not drop this charge or takes me to court and I have made that clear to them and also the site owner.

 

My Father also will start a petition to get the signage at this site improved and legal to remove any future ambiguity.

 

Vehicle images as requested, as supplied to the IAS

 

 

pix2.pdf

[parkingbill2018]

Sorry for the delay.

I hope you now have all you need to offer useful advice that will help if this goes to court or I get nasty letters from the Debt Collector or their Solicitor.

 

I suppose this is all good preparation for writing to my local MP and the media if I have to and I was thinking of contacting Sir Parking Bill himself, even though I am not in his constituency.

Appeals & decisions.pdf

[parkingbill2018]

Yes I noticed, but I am sure from dates and times on photos etc they can work that out anyway!

[parkingbill2018]

Here are both sides of the PCN in one PDF as requested.

PCN Both Sides Now.pdf

[parkingbill2018]

Times 16:38:46 and 16:38:59

[parkingbill2018]

It doesnt matter how long I was there.

I don't know why this thread included overstay in the title.

I did not overstay a period that I had paid for or a period you are allowed to stay free.

 

The road is Private and there is No Parking, although I and dozens of drivers every day are unaware because of the poor signage (e.g. no sign as you enter the road. I have a receipt from Tescos that is within 10 minutes from the time stamp, but I have no idea how quickly the photo was taken.

 

I would see immediately as I only bought a few items from the store, hence why I said 10 minutes.

There is no grace period so why do they have to prove how long I was there or have I missed something.

 

Anyway is £100 a fair charge for 10 minutes and what hardship and issues does it cause the site owner having cars park in the road for a few minutes.

Yes if they park on the site, including their car park, but not the road.

 

If it is such a big deal they should errect correct signs and paint double yellow lines then there can be no argument!!!

They obviously want to cause confusion to make money from their excessive parking charges.

[parkingbill2018]

That is very interesting Shamrocker. Thanks. So they can try to charge me for trespassing, but not for parking in a no parking site, even if the road is part of the site referred to on signs?

 

I know parking on DYLs on Private land is not an enforceable offence,

but at least Tesco custoners would have more awareness that parking in this road is not allowed than they currently have from the existing signs.

Edited February 7, 2019 by dx100uk
merge

[parkingbill2018]

The signs say Private Land.

No Parking at any time.

The only problem is drivers don't see the signs and those that do can be excused for believing they refer to the building site and not the road!

 

So where do I go from here?

There is probably no point in telling them anything now as I am sure they are reading thus thread and know exactly what trump card I should use.

 

In the meantime can I expect the games of the debt collecter to continue and do I just ignore any further correspondance,

including from their Solicitor?

 

This I was planning to do and only react to a letter from the County Court

[parkingbill2018]

I know now and as I previously stated on this thread I should not have gone through the NPM/IAS chocolate teapot/corrupt appeal process and just responded by disputing the PCN and telling them to take me to court.

 

However I did so because I was wrongly advised to by CAB and Martin Lewis's MSE website, plus I was hoping to avoid wasting valuable County Court time.

 

I am where I am now and have to deal with it.

In a way I hope this goes to court and I win my case, because this will make great front page headline in the Chronicle & Echo and then watch the flood of drivers who will try and claim their money back and also what is important, NPM and the site owner will have to change their signage and process of recording offences.

 

BTW in my post regarding image times there was a third image on on a second page of the PDF they uploaded to the IAS. This had the date stamp 16:39:04 so the time recorded was an extra 5 seconds. Sorry for misleading you all!

[parkingbill2018]

Had no Letter of Claim or from the County Court.

 

Last letters and emails have come from the debt collector.

 

Yes some advise from MSE is good, but what I took was poor.

 

Out of interest what is your opinion of the Parking Cowboys?

Obviously people on here are just names and I have no idea what qualifications or experience each of you have.

Edited October 21, 2018 by dx100uk
quote spacing

[parkingbill2018]

My opinion of the parking cowboys? There is a legitimate need for them in some instances, but most of the time 'parking management' isn't their primary concern - it's to issue tickets and get cash out of us. They play on the ignorance both of the law and the civil court system to coerce the everyday person into paying up. Then you've got the role of the main players behind the scenes - it just stinks of one big racket. The DVLA are making a few quid out of it to boot.

 

I have no qualifications, just experience of battling my own ticket and many hours of reading up on the subject. My advice is to just ignore all 'threatograms' and enjoy your life until one resembles a letter before action - likely from Gladstons or other solicitor firm. By all means, read up when you have time, but don't worry over it. Your situation is very easy to defend, and the regular contributors on here will guide you when doing do. It's not for a huge amount compared to many of the court claims posted on, for example, the consumer credit forum - so just use it as a valuable life experience. You'll feel liberated at the end of it!

 

I meant the website Parking Cowboys, not the parking management companies! Sorry for not being clearer. Thanks for the advice.

 

Did the council confirm that they had un-adopted all of Market Street, or just the part near the old hospital?

 

Just the part that is between Tescos and the old hospital.

 

Just been up to the site.

The signs are still the same as far as I can see although at 18.30 it was already dark and hard to see them.

 

Despite this I saw NPM parking attendants were still operating.

There were two guys standing against the derelict building wall and as soon as each driver parked alongside it, left their vehicle and walked over to Tesco, out came their camera phones and photos taken using flash.

 

I was parked on the Tessco car park, which I notice has now been extended.

I walked over the road with my shopping just after one of the guys had taken a photo.

 

I think he knew I had seen him taking the photo and that the car was mine and he sheepishly said to me "OK mate". I just walked past him and the car then crossed back over to the Tesco's car park.

 

So more PCNs will be in the post in the next couple of days and NPM will still insist they were clearly visible and that the drivers should have seen them.

Edited October 22, 2018 by dx100uk
now sorted re reported post 3 posts merged

[parkingbill2018]

If the new parking bill isnt going to stop this then seems it is going to be a complete and utter waste of time and our money!

 

I thought it seemed to be informative too, but I didn't reach out directly to seek their help.

 

If they are making a lot of easy money because of peoples ignorance why can't they be happy with that. But no they have to be greedy and chase every penny they can and in the process cause people misery and stress.

 

The thing is,

if they get exposed in the media,

especially if they loose a court case,

they will be shooting themselves in the foot!

Please let this happen.

I firmly believe what goes around, comes around.

 

And if they had just dropped the charge I would have gone away quietly and not parked in the road ever again.

In fact I don't shop at this Tesco's anymore.

Tonight was the first time since January.

 

I think they loose a lot of business because of this issue.

[parkingbill2018]

This defendant isn't going to pay unless I am told to do so by a Judge so they are wasting their time and money,

as I have already told them and the debt recovery company.

 

And when I win my case my Father,

who has plenty of time on his hands,

will certainly be spreading the word big time!

 

Just seen the new red fencing and current sign location of this site can be seen on google, so you can all bee how inadequate they are by virtually entering and going around the un-adopted road.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2413478,-0.8824026,3a,75y,351.58h,89.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0VvjjIu5aBHnAZuvp0Y8uA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Luckily at the time there were no cars parked alongside the derelict building on the right as you enter the road, although I know google blank out car number plates.

[parkingbill2018]

Yes I would say the lines were painted by the council and this was another part of my despute that the road looks like a normal one when you enter it.

 

Also the guy who told NPM to take him to court and heard nothing from them for 5 months (last time I saw him), stated this would be part of his defence in court.

 

The PCN states unadopted road and the council confirmed this to me.

 

The article on unadopted roads states:

 

The public usually has the right to freely pass along any unadopted road, which differs from private roads, where only the owner and those with permission can use them.

 

It does not say whether or not the owner can charge for parking.

 

My Dad has been doing some bedtime reading tonight.

read the IPC Code of Conduct cover to cover and has noted several NPM breaches and obviously non compliances missed when the IAS have audited them,

so I think ww will lodge an official complaint and see how many points they clock up.

 

A couple are very serious and could lead to their membership being suspended or cancelled IF the IPC deal with these correctly.

 

I wish I had known about this document before I submitted my appeal to NPM.

I dont think they would have wanted this to be escalated as an IAS appeal,

which is of course managed

 

Feeling pleased,

so a good nights sleep ahead.

 

Cannot say anymore here as NPM are probably reading this thread and I don't want them to take any actions before my complaint has even been written.

 

This will also make a great story in the local press and bring shame to those concerned.