The European Union.....In or Out?

[buckthorn]

I have no idea, but it has 'failed to proceed' in the past and it would seem the yanks are also interested in the LSE

 

https://next.ft.com/content/0cd93e38-eb53-11e5-bb79-2303682345c8

 

Is that the London School of Economics, they can have it no problem. lol

[buckthorn]

We are big enough to make our own laws, in our own parliament; if you believe that we

should have the sovereign right to control our own borders; if you believe that we

should be fiscally responsible and stop adding to our national debt and expecting our

children and grandchildren to pay for them, then the in-out referendum cannot come

quick enough.

 

Cameron did not have a hope in hell of getting any meaningful reforms to the EU. It

simply was not going to happen.

 

The control of our own destiny is in our hands and its time to act in the best interest

our country.

 

Roll on June 23rd, lets get our independence back.

Edited April 15, 2016 by buckthorn
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[buckthorn]

What you need to know about the EU, and what

they do with your money.

The European Union forked out £1.5 million for a study

into African DIRT.

 

Your cash went on a five-year study-dubbed DirtPol and

led by the University of Sussex-into “the cultural politics

of dirt in Africa, 1880-to the present day”.

 

It came from the European Re-search Council, a body set

up by the EU in 2007 “to stimulate scientific excellence in

Europe” with a £5.3 billion budget to be spent by 2013.

 

Explaining the thinking behind it, project leader Professor

Steph Newell said: “We’ll be investigating people’s attitude,

perspectives and the language behind dirt. “What is ‘dirt’ and

what do we mean by that?” On the University of Sussex website,

the project which ended last June was described as offering

“an ambitious, qualitative and historical study that asks about

the implications of locally situated understandings of dirt in diverse

Africa contexts for current debate about urbanisation, the environment,

sexuality and ethnicity.”

 

“I’m sure British taxpayers will be less than delighted to learn that

£1.5 million has been spent on a study into dirt on a continent they

don’t live on.

 

“This so called project, if you can really call it that, is one of thousands

taking place in universities across the country and the rest of Europe into

things we’ll likely never need to know.

 

“Aren’t there more important things in the world our universities could be

researching, like trying to find a cure for cancer or a replacement for

antibiotics which are becoming less affective?

 

It is precisely this kind of bonkers scheme that is convincing more and more

people that Britain would be better off outside the EU.”

[buckthorn]

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/463224/Fury-European-Union-bureaucrats-spend-1-5-million-Africa-dirt-study

 

I have never read that so called News paper in my life.

I gave the name of the University and the Professor responsible so if you wished to look it up you could,

it just seems to me that by always asking for this information on any of my post but not on other contributors

post is a bit one sided.

 

For your information:- http://www.sussex.ac.uk/dirtpol/

[buckthorn]

Were some of our other contribution to the EU go!

 

(To check; look up the name of the University, plus the name of the project)

 

The European Union awarded the university of Liverpool €221,606 IN 2013 for

“Trade Roads in Ancient Deserts: An Egyptian Case Study”, into “the unrecognized

Late Bronze Age commercial route between the Mediterranean and middle Egypt”.

 

In 2013, the University of Warwick was awarded €312,117 by the EU for a study entitled;

“Resilience in East African landscapes: Identifying critical thresholds and sustainable

trajectories – past, present and future. The study would “combine state-of-the-art

research methods to tap into under-appreciated knowledge of how indigenous people

have previously adapted to East Africa’s intrinsically unstable climate and land/water resources”.

 

University Collage, London, received €2,499,006 from the European Research Council for a

project called: “Calendars in Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages: Standardization and Fixation.”

The website said the project “studies the evolution of calendars in late antique and

medieval societies, with a special focus on Roman, Christian, Jewish, and Islamic calendars”.

 

The University of Exeter was given €1,519,640 for its study into “The Impact of Plant Evolution

on Fire Behaviour in Ancient Ecosystems”, to “assess palaeofire severity, the heat delivered by

a fire and the duration for which it remains at a site must be estimated.

 

Total cost just of these 4 project= €4,552,369, “of your money”. on rubbish.

[buckthorn]

I'm still on the fence here.

 

But regarding bonfire of workers rights.

 

Currently whilst part of the EU. Who has longest working week?

 

How many bank holidays do we have compared to the rest.

 

How does our current productivity compare

 

 

 

People are always complaining they don’t know

how to vote in the EU referendum because they don’t

know the facts.

 

Well, here’s a fact slipped out by the Government this

week in a 96-page report they hoped no one would

bother to read.

 

It says, unequivocally, that Britain has no choice but to

adopt EU laws and accept the rulings of the EU court

because EU law, in every instance, overrides UK law.

And the European Court trumps the British Supreme

Court.

 

So there it is, in black and white-we have no special

concessions. We are absolutely not a special case.

 

We are under the thumb of European Courts that make 63% of our laws. Fact!

[buckthorn]

Some things that are NOT FACTS

 

3 million jobs will not be at risk.

 

The claim that 3 million jobs will be at risk if we

leave the EU is "a wilful distortion of the facts"

-according to the man who produced the facts .

It depends on the mad idea that, after Brexit,

the EU will refuse to buy things from us, or sell

things to us, despite our being their biggest and

most valued customer

 

British expats will not be sent home.

 

After Bexit, under the Vienna Convention,

everyone can stay were they are, provided they

are there legally, British expats tend to be

wealthier people making a significant

contribution to their local economies, rather than

low-skilled, low-paid workers.

 

The EU does not benefit every family by £3,000 a year.

 

This is an 'inference' by the CBI, based on a

'literature review' of a number of studies, at least

some of which said that the EU's costs outweigh

the benefits. Of course, the CBI is very keen that

we stay in-just as it insisted we had to join the

Euro, or face ruin!

 

Big companies will not stop investing in the UK.

 

Big companies would like us to stay in the EU-

because it is designed for big companies. But big

firms like Nissan and Boeing are investing in the

UK, even though we may be about to leave. And

one survey said that US and Asian firms would be

more likly to invest here!

[buckthorn]

This is what you get if you vote to remain in the

EU/cloud cuckoo land.

 

The government’s ‘deal’ is not guaranteed.

Mr Cameron’s renegotiations must be presented to the European Parliament

for approval-after we vote to stay in. That means they can be rejected by 700 MEP’s

who don’t like us, when we have already decided not to leave.

Some new EU laws are being held back until we have voted; and the ‘emergency brake’

on migrants’ benefits run out in seven years.

The EU is collapsing.

Its Euro currency doesn’t work, its borderless regime is breaking up, the migrant crisis

is overwhelming and European ‘solidarity’ is coming to an end. On February 24th,

Greece withdrew its ambassador from Austria. The EU wants our weight and money to

try and shore things up and prevent more counties leaving.

Our Forces under EU command.

Under the 2009 Lisbon Treaty the EU is creating integrated European military forces-a

‘common security and defence policy’. The EU Naval Force, EU Air Transport Command,

EU Military Staff, battle groups and rapid reaction forces already exist, including British forces

which will come under EU command.

The EU-US trade agreement threatens the NHS.

A trade agreement being negotiated in secret between the EU and USA (TTIP) will open up

the NHS to US corporations, who will be able to sue for access to our health service.

Turkey will be a member by 2025.

The next seven states to join the EU will be Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro,

Serbia and Turkey. Turkey has been ‘fast-tracked’ and will get visa-free access to the EU from

this year. Citizens of all these states will have a right to settle in the UK.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Andyorch
Removed reference to poster

[buckthorn]

If we vote to leave the EU.

We will continue to trade freely with Europe, and the world.

It won’t take ‘years’ to negotiate a trade agreement with the EU. We are the

EU’s. most valuable customer. As a former CBI chief said, we could have all

the trade deals we need ‘within 48 hours’.

 

We will stop ‘free movement’ and control our borders fairly.

There are 137 countries trading with the EU without free movement of people.

We will not have to be like Norway, Switzerland, Canada, or anyone else. We are

the world’s 5th largest economy, and the EU’s best customer, so we will strike

the deal we want, and control our borders properly. We will have a fair, secure

immigration system of our own.

 

We can save billions of pounds to fund the NHS.

The EU costs us £55 million a day in subscription fees, and £150 billion a year in

added costs. We are one of the EU’s biggest funders. Maybe we could use the money

better at home?

 

Our food would be cheaper.

The EU makes our food about £45 a month more expensive for the average family,

according to the IEA. Prof Minford of Cardiff University predicts that food prices

would fall 8% “on day one” after Brexit. Plus, the EU is thinking of putting VAT on

our food, medicines and children’s clothes.

 

Let’s be on the safe side-outside the EU.

The EU failed in Yugoslavia, provoked a war in Ukraine, can’t control its borders or

manage the migrant crisis. Security experts say that the reason a Paris-style terrorist

attack hasn’t occurred in the UK yet is because we are an island and can police our

borders. We have the best security and intelligence service in Europe by far.

[buckthorn]

Yes, and if those laws are unjust, there are half a billion people available to object to them.

 

I almost exclusively believe that laws should be for ALL, without ANY special cases.

That is justice as well as law.

 

The European Court of Human Rights has become a danger

to British democracy and an affront to human rights. While

we are members of the EU, and therefore the ECHR, the

British Supreme Court is supreme in name only. In reality it

is subservient.

 

We would be better off without the EU and the ECHR,

instead allowing British judges to decide how British laws

are implemented.

[buckthorn]

The President of the European Parliament told David Cameron

that his so called renegotiation deal would be ripped up by MEPS

if EU leaders agreed to allow Britain to curb migrants benefits.

 

In a statement Germen socialist Martin Schulz said the

Parliament was prepared to 'fight' the Prime Minister's

plans.

[buckthorn]

“Just another reason to get the hell out”

Brussels has threatened the UK they will take us to the European Court of Justice for

charging our continental friends ? to drive on UK roads, the government

introduced a £10 levy two years ago, to level up the playing fields’ for British truck

drivers who have to pay tolls in our partners? countries. (even though British hauliers also have to pay the charge).

 

Brussel said yesterday it unfairly penalises our continental friends, as its

introduction coincided with a reduction in Road Tax for UK lorries. it said it was prepared

to start infringement proceedings.

 

Is this not a good reason to vote too leave the EU?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk eu-threatens-legal-action-over-british-lorry-tax

[buckthorn]

They need us more than we need them.

 

The head of Germany’s business lobby group has warned

that ‘a divided Europe would sink into oblivion’ if the UK

left the EU.

 

Markus Kerber, director general of the BDI in Germany, said:

‘A Brexit would lead to a dead end. Only a unified Europe will

be successful on the global scene. A divided Europe will sink

into oblivion.’

 

Michel Guilbaud, of the MEDEF business group in France, said:

‘For France and for Europeans, a Brexit would be a major step backwards.’

The language of the various business groups reflects the dire position of the

Eurozone, of course they want the UK to remain to pick up their bills.

 

“They need us more than we need them.”

[buckthorn]

Imagine you are in a pub with a group of friends. You have been buying the drinks all night and your friends have happliy accepted this and even told you what flavour of crisps to get, despite the fact you wanted pork scratchings. they insist that no-one else like pork scratchings so you cant buy them. You decide it is time to go home but they demand you stay because they want another drink. you decide to leave anyway so they all say that they wont be your friend any more becuase you wont keep them in beer. The landlord warns you that his entire business is inder threat if you leave and he might just give the others a drink and charge you for it when you come in next time and if you dont agree he will add a few pence to your pint anyway.

 

Brilliant post.

[buckthorn]

The big risk of Brexit is that the instability hits the countries finances with higher interest on government

debt meaning increased taxes or reduced spending on services. The cost of Brexit might well be a lot more expensive than any savings on contributions to EU funds.

 

We keep hearing from those who wish to stay in the undemocratic EU,

that nobody knows what it will be like if we leave this club.

 

What I want to know from these people is what will it be like if we stay in.???????

[buckthorn]

But what do we gain by staying in this club?????

[buckthorn]

Which is??

[buckthorn]

What you really mean is more of the same, in fact

much-much more of the same, in fact things will

only get worse as we are dragged further and

further into this undemocratic quagmire/mess called the EU.

 

I can only see one bright part, the EU is going to collapse

and I don’t think it will be long before it happens, and when

it does I want to be out of it before it takes us with it.

 

You say:-

The EU is the UK's main trading partner, worth more than £400bn

a year, or 52% of the total trade in goods and services.

 

And how much are we worth to them as they export more to us

than we do to them, do you really think they will stop buying from

us or put a tariff on our goods, they would be rather stupid if they did.

 

Another statement we keep getting is in relation to the number of

brits; working in the EU, they are spread out in the other 27 club

members countries, we have all of theirs over hear, in the UK.

[buckthorn]

We only have to look back over the last decade

to see what fools Brussels have made of us, and

we, seemed to have taken it lying down as we do.

 

When it was the Common Market it was about

good trade relations.

 

Now it is about ‘dictating’ how we live our lives, ie,

fishing and farming quotas. Illegal poaching our

fishing grounds. We put in £350 million a week

(admittedly we get some back but we cannot spend

it the way we wish, we are told were it must be spent,

our own money) and that is not enough apparently.

 

Having to rely on unknown faceless unelected idiots is bad

enough.

 

Everything about the EU is about regulation and limitations

even down to the power we used on our cookers and vacuum

cleaners which became law in July 2015.

 

More recently, it is the travesty of immigration problems, with

the stupidity of Ms Merkel letting in thousands, mostly men

(and possible terrorists). Young men fighting fit.

 

What would have happened in 1940 had our population ‘done a

runner’ and ran from the imposing threat from Germany.

 

No tobyjugg, I don’t have a problem with the coming vote. Let us

hope the British public see sense and leave this mess/sinking ship

called the EU. I hope so for our country.

[buckthorn]

“If we stay in we will just become an EU province”.

 

Can we trust what the politicians and other people are telling us?

(I don’t think so.)

 

We are told by some of the contributors to the forum and others

“that being in the EU creates trade and jobs” “and that Brexit fears

are also blamed for a rise in jobless figures”.

 

These sort of statements are being spouted daily by the ‘stay in-side’

eg scare tactics – this sort of thing was carried out prior to the

referendum on June 5th,1975, (I still have those original leaflets) and

our citizens failed to see through the mire then and must not fail this

time.

 

If you wish to let the powers of Westminster go and the UK become a

province of the EU, or a president of the EU have power over the Prime

Minister followed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer taking orders from

a new EU ‘super minister’ then the EU is on its way to becoming a single

state like the US.

 

The economy of the UK will be run by the EU and we will be forced to adopt

the euro. Also our tax system will be decided by them and we will have to

pay what they say.

 

All migrants will be treated the same and remember countries like Albania,

Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and let’s not forget Turkey are on the waiting

list to join the Gold Star club. How much will you and I be paying out to support

these ‘poor states’?

 

Foreign policy will be decide by the EU and also control of the navy, army and

air force. The EU will control our borders and tell us who will and will not come

here.

 

So, folks, all those ‘promises’ made by Cameron prior to giving the referendum

date are not worth the paper they are written on!

 

Will the last man or women standing turn out the lights?

[buckthorn]

Now they really are scrapping the bottom of the pan.

 

Ed Milliband issues an extraordinary warning that quitting

the EU could put the planet in danger. (so it all depends

on the UK we control the weather now, what did I say they

need us more than we need them).

 

Miliband has joined forces with Environment Secretary Liz

Truss, (lol) Green Party MP Caroline Lucas (lol) and former

Lib Dem Ed Davey (lol) to claim that ‘our global habitat’ will

suffer if Britain votes to leave. (where do these people come

from) no wonder they want us to stay in they need us to save

the planet.

 

The four have signed a declaration claiming problems as diverse

as ivory poaching. (nothing to do with China then) commercial

whaling (nothing to do with Japan then), and illegal logging

could all worsen (illegal logging WWF)

 

‘Those campaigning for Britain to leave Europe cannot be trusted

on the environment,(tell me how many coal fired power stations

our Germany, China and India opening daily).

 

And then we have Heseltine calling on Tory voters to back Britain’s

EU membership because it would save Cameron from a coup. (strange

I thought we were talking about saving the planet not Cameron,

mind you if we don’t he could go the same way as the dodo).

 

Heseltine said ‘The fact that his premiership is at risk…indicates a

powerful argument for remaining in Europe. ( I think it’s a powerful

argument for pulling out).

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3568772/Leaving-EU-endanger-Earth-says-Miliband-Former-Labour-leader-issues-extraordinary-warning-global-habitat-suffer-Britain-leaves.html

Edited May 2, 2016 by buckthorn
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[buckthorn]

What happens if the EU referendum has a low turn out and Brexit wins a very small majority e.g 50.2% out and 49.8% remain ?

You say:-

I don't think that gives any current government a clear mandate for negotiating UK's exit from the EU. The referendum result

would not be supported by a majority of MP's and Lords. Therefore they would not pass any legislation required to support Brexit.

The negotiation would be dead in the water,

 

 

 

So in your opinion if its 50.2% of the population vote to leave the EU, and 49.8% vote to stay this would not give the

government a mandate to leave the EU.

 

Question:- So if the result was reversed 50.2% of the population vote to stay and 49.8% vote to leave, based on your

statement the government would not have a mandate to stay??

 

So in your opinion what should the government do if this was the outcome ?

 

I have always been told that members of parliament are elected to represent me, not themselves

and if they don't then I can see no point in voting in any election.

Edited May 3, 2016 by buckthorn
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[buckthorn]

You say:-

Buckthorn. Referendums are pretty unusual in the UK. The outcome either way does not instruct any government or MP or Lord to implement any act of parliament that might be required.

 

I don't think a very close referendum result in favour of Brexit would lead to the UK leaving the EU. Even Boris Johnson suggested that such a result could be used to negotiate better terms and a further referendum could be held

 

You are absolutely correct even if it was 95% to leave they would not have to

implement the result, but they would have a revolution on their hand if they did

not.

 

It’s OK for a union to call a strike if they get 50% of the vote, but if 50.2% of voters,

vote to leave the EU that is not acceptable.

 

[B]It really makes me glade I live in a democracy.[/b]

Edited May 3, 2016 by buckthorn
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[buckthorn]

We don't live in a proper democracy. We should have proportional representation. How can it be fair that UKIP gets 4 million votes, but only 1 MP ? Tories win about 330 MP's only getting 12 million votes. And the Tories cheated by breaking election spending rules.

 

UKIP only got one MP because the voting public in England had the frighteners put

on them, the thought of the SNP and Labour joining up together clinched the result

for Cameron.

 

Those same frighteners are put on the general in relation to the EU.

[buckthorn]

Some information that people may not know about.

 

Britain falls into step with the Euro Army.

 

Imagine some Eurocrat with his finger on the nuclear trigger. If the EU gets its way, it may soon be

a possibility. There is a saying amongst diplomats that the EU is an economic giant but a military pigmy.

 

This accusation stings the Europhiles so much that they have decided to address this and create a

European Army. As if an army of bureaucrats wasn’t bad enough, now they want to have an actual army

as well.

 

Post Lisbon, the EU has harboured fantasies of being a militarised superpower able to project its ‘values’

throughout the world. It now oversees operations with 2,800 troops deployed. Many of these missions,

conveniently, have a ‘dual purpose’. That is, thay appear to be civilian-military co-operation when in actual

fact they are heavily militarised and weaponised. They are also in some of the world’s most sensitive trouble

spots like Kosovo and Gaza.

 

British participation in an EU army was agreed at St Malo in 1998, where Tony Blair agreed in principle to

an EU army. He did this because he was trying to be seen as a ‘good European’ in light of his desire to be a

future EU president. Also, he believed that by agreeing to an EU Army, he could use that as a good will

gesture to get France to agree to sweeping CAP reform, knowing that CAP was an unpopular scheme with

the UK electorate. France (shockingly) did no such thing, but Blair had already committed.

 

The German think-tank, the EU-funded Konrad Adenauer Foundation, has argued that Germany can get its

Euro Army by a different tactic. Instead of going for a Euro Army at one fell swoop, it aims to create ‘islands

of co-operation’. That is, to persuade smaller countries in Eastern and Central Europe too co-operate with

Germany in creating smaller building blocks of a Euro Army which at a later date can be put together. Given

Germany’s economic dominance of these countries, it can easily ‘persuade ‘them to co-operate.

 

In mid-2012, the Foreign Ministers group of the Future of Europe Group produced a report. This is a group

of 11 foreign ministers from important EU states, but not the UK. The report calls for the creation of a European

Army, with a veiled threat to a UK veto in the Council. The report states it wishes to “introduce more majority

decisions in the CFSP (Common Foreign and Security Policy) sphere or at least prevent one single member state

from being able to obstruct initiatives”. Guess which member state they mean!

 

Clearly the core EU states know how unpopular a Euro Army would be in Britain, so are making moves to render

Britain’s opinion irrelevant. So much for our famed ‘influence ‘in the EU institutions.

 

In October 2013, a spokesman for the British Foreign Service told the international security journal, Courcy’s

Intelligence Brief, that “today there is in London a genuine desire and commitment to making CSDP

(Common Security and Defence Policy) as effective as possible in supporting international security and

protecting Britain’s and Europe’s borders from potential threats. We are now increasingly aware of the helpful

role the EU can play in bringing to bear the common will of 28 of the world’s most advanced economies.

” This suggests that amongst the Whitehall Mandarins there is a growing appetite to form a Euro Army.

 

The possible successor to Baroness Ashton is Polish diplomat Radek Skorski. He has said that since America

is no longer willing or interested in security crises at Europe’s borders, the EU has to militarise itself so as to

deal with these crises. He argues that the EU’s Operation Atalanta against Somali piracy saw a drop in attacks

of 70%. In actual fact, the drop was due to aggressive Russian, Chinese, Indian and American anti-piracy patrols.

They have a slightly more simple method of dealing with armed pirates, and it doesn’t involve briefing them in

detail on their human rights.

This reminds me, when I think of the young men and women who died in the British Army. One source of comfort

for the family members is that that died fighting for Queen and Country. Very few British mothers would be

comforted knowing their loved one died for Jean-Claude Juncker and the Single Market.

Edited May 3, 2016 by buckthorn
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