other PCN - expired? warrant - Can a bailiff invent a "payment agreement" to extend it?

[Bailiff Advice]

One point that needs to be made clear is that if a payment arrangement is set up, then the 12 month period (until the warrant expires) is not calculated from the date of the Notice of Enforcement. Instead, it is calculated as being from the date on which the payment arrangement defaulted. In the case being discussed on this thread it had been mentioned that the bailiff company has stated that a payment arrangement had been made. You will need to clarify this point.

 

A final point is that the bailiff regulations were radically overhauled in April 2014 and although the new regulations are are far better for debtors (given that the fees are now fixed in law and there are far more exempt items etc and better protection for vulnerable debtors) the position for 'advisors' (and by that I mean ALL the regular posters on here) is that, in able to provide accurate information we need to be familiar with Schedule 12 of the Tribunal Courts & Enforcement Act, the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013, the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 and the relevant Civil Procedure Rules ( and more). All of us are learning new facts about the regulations daily and this is to be expected.

[tiredwithbailiffs]

Thank you, you've all been a great help!

[Bailiff Advice]

If that is the case then what are the bailiffs and council up to? And what happened to this idea of warrants no longer expiring after 12 months?

 

For the avoidance of doubt, warrants DO expire after 12 months (from the date of the Notice of Enforcement) BUT they be extended for a further 12 months. This requires an application to court by either the local authority or enforcement company (as their agent) and such an application must to be made BEFORE the 1st warrant expires.

 

Secondly, only ONE extension request can be made.

[E Munch]

I think this is a rare instance of you being incorrect, Bailiff Advice. The information from TEC is not to be relied upon and they have themselves confirmed this to the OP. The 12 month limitation on the life of a warrant for PCN cases was created by CPR 75.7(6) and that was removed by the Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2014 paragraph 35(f) which also renamed the warrant of execution to a "local authority warrant of control." The changes were brought into effect to coincide with the new Schedule 12 process which itself imposes time limits which would have otherwise conflicted with the life of the warrant.

The link above shows the current state of the CPR 75.7 and that is what the enforcement agent must follow.

[tiredwithbailiffs]

I'm very interested to see how this is responded to as I'm inclined to agree at thithis stage (much as I'd prefer not to)

[Bailiff Advice]

I'm very interested to see how this is responded to as I'm inclined to agree at thithis stage (much as I'd prefer not to)

 

You and many others !!!

 

Since making my posts on Monday I have received so many emails and messages on this subject. I will be writing back later today with an update.

[tiredwithbailiffs]

I'm pleased that this is useful to others.

 

Thankyou again

[tiredwithbailiffs]

Any news Bailiff advice? *fingers crossed

[tiredwithbailiffs]

Still no news on this one? Should we assume that E Munch is right in this case and that the warrant hasn't expired?

 

If so, then an OOT would surely be the most appropriate next stage... any final thoughts?

[tiredwithbailiffs]

new Schedule 12 process which itself imposes time limits

 

E Munch, are you able to provide a link to the exact wording that defines how this should play out? I'm still trying to work out whether the warrant should have expired if no successful collection activity or payment agreement took place during the 12 months.

 

Many thanks

[josephbloggs]

Not emunch but still what you are looking for is the taking control of goods regulations - reg 9 (1) & (2)(a)(b)

[E Munch]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1894/regulation/9/made

As josephbloggs has said it is the TCoG Reg 9 that deals with the 12 month time limit to TCoG and how that can be extended by a court or replaced by a new 12 month period if a payment arrangement is made and breached.

[tiredwithbailiffs]

Aha! Thank you both. So, I think we're kind of back to my initial question as Im trying to establish what constitutes a payment agreement. The wording suggests that it is the bailiff who enters into the agreement with the creditor. Does that mean that the bailiff can impose an agreement without consent of the debtor?

 

Good to have the conversation reopened

[josephbloggs]

Has the out of time witness statement has still not been done?

[tiredwithbailiffs]

No, not yet

[E Munch]

No one knows what is needed to constitute a payment arrangement of the sort mentioned in TCoG regulation 9.

 

 

The MoJ were asked the question during the period leading up to April 6th 2014

and although the words are theirs once they are written they will only say "take your own legal advice"

as it is only the courts who can interpret (in a binding way) the meaning of what the MoJ have written.

 

 

Note however that it is an arrangement and not an agreement so from a dictionary definition the debtor does not seem to have to agree to it necessarily.

 

 

People will say there is an arrangement when it suits them and that there isn't one when that suits them best. It's human nature.

 

 

The courts may one day have to rule on the point but as you have seen with the issue of whether a debtor has a beneficial interest in goods

let to them under a hire purchase agreement the answer may not be to everyone's liking.

[Peterbard]

The meaning of the section will IMO be pretty much as it says.

 

Whether the formation of an arrangement to pay can be considered as a contract when it is not being "freely made" by the debtor is unlikely and probably why the word contract is avoided.

[tiredwithbailiffs]

wow, it sounds wonderfully favourable for the bailiffs doesn't it - and clearly they are already taking advantage if this one.

 

So, this is no longer a safety zone for the alleged debtors

 

In that case, I'd really appreciate some solid advice on how my friend should fill out the TE6/TE9 forms that the TEC sent her. If she's going to disclose her address in this process it can't be rejected otherwise she'll be in a worse position.

 

Thanks again in advance. Bailiff Advice, any thoughts?

[Bailiff Advice]

Your friend would have to disclose her new address on the form.

 

I have already provided my opinion as to the position regarding the expiry of the warrant in an earlier post.

 

I am away for a few days with only very limited internet access but will pick up this important thread after the weekend break.

[tiredwithbailiffs]

This went very quiet...

 

As it stands my understanding is that the bailiff's APNR vans can now pick up cars registered in the name of anyone who's ever had an uncollected warrant against them since the rules recently changed irrespective of timescales. There is no expiry to these warrants, so the bailiff companies can continue to accumulate these over years and years making APNR and car-jacking a very lucrative business indeed.

 

BTW, on that, does anyone know what information they cross reference in order to identify a vehicle? I.E. they have a warrant on Joe Bloggs of 5 Rosewood Drive, but he doesn't live there anymore - then they detect a car registered under Joe Bloggs of a different address.... surely they can't assume it's the same Joe Bloggs? My friend's new car is registered to her, but they still don't know her current address.

 

Bailiff Advice, if you have the time your follow up to the previous post would be invaluable. Thank you

[tiredwithbailiffs]

bump

[Bailiff Advice]

My fault. I am still at work and will look at this when I get home later this evening.

[Bailiff Advice]

On the dreaded subject of ANPR vehicles (my pet hate for many years)....these vehicles only came into popular use in around 2002/3 to enforce unpaid road traffic debts (local authority issued parking charge notices). The reason why they are used for enforcing this debt and no others is actually very simple:

 

When a parking ticket is issued it will have upon it relevant statutory information such as the location of the contravention, the contravention code, exact time of the contravention AND......the VRM (vehicle registration mark).

 

The next notice from the council will be the Notice to Owner, followed by the Charge Certificate and then the Order for Recovery. Each of these documents has upon it the SAME information as the initial notice. If payment is not made....a warrant of control is issued and once again.....the VRM is present. It is only because the warrant has the registration number of the car upon it that ANPR is used. This is the ONLY debt that records the number plate. If the number plate was missing from this document.....ANPR vehicles would disappear overnight (and I would be delighted).

 

For the avoidance of doubt.....ANPR can only 'match' the VRM...they cannot match all Joe Bloggs. The ANPR equipped vehicle will be driving around the streets looking for a particular vehicle. It will not be looking for the debtor.

 

PS: I dislike these vehicles with a passion and even more so the newer ones with cameras that can detect vehicles that are not only in front or behind the ANPR van but those parked on driveways (sideway positioned cameras). Nasty.

 

As I have mentioned elsewhere on this thread, warrants DO expire after a period of 12 months (from the date of the Notice of Enforcement). One application only can be made to extend the 'life' of the warrant for a further 12 month period but, ........that application is far from simple (as many EA's will recently have discovered) !!

 

On the subject of the warrant and its expiry and a request to extend etc ...I have a meeting in two weeks time where this subject is on the agenda and I promise to report back.

[tiredwithbailiffs]

Thanks for the info, Bailiffadvice and sorry - I only just saw that you had responded.

 

Well, it's certainly reassuring about the APNR as far as my friend is concerned as she no longer owns the vehicle in question.... expiration aside I don't see a way the bailiff can trace her now or cause her any grief.

 

Regarding the expiration, I spoke to the bailiff myself and they did confirm (back then) that the warrant was still live. That said, my own experience with these people/organisations doesn't fill me with confidence that they would ever feel that the truth was necessary.

 

My friend has watched this thread and I know she is grateful as am I for all the help and advice. Although a question may still remain at this stage, we are both satisfied that nothing further is likely to happen now. Thanks for all your input and I look forward (Bailiffadvice) to hearing back from your meeting!