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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Obviously you don't want to answer the question which is perfectly straightforward.This leads me to beleive that you would go for option one which is hypocritical to your postings

 

You can obviously believe what you want but you cannot answer for me and consequently accuse me of being hypocritical!

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If splitting hairs is the best you can come back with I'm not sure why you bothered. Not like you Pete!

 

Please don't be patronising.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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A seperate issue altogether but the annual cost of the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq would cover all of the UK's bad debt three times over.

 

That assumes of course that the Government (which has spent this money wisely or otherwise in armed conflict) will instead pay off the individual debts of those currently indebted. Great, I'll get my cards out now, knowing that the Government will pay my bills for me from the money they save in warfare - not!

 

The amount of money wasted in mismanagement of and provision of non health related treatment by the NHS would again more than cover all of the UK bad debt provisions. Again, why should NHS savings be used to pay off the debts of individuals?

 

I could go on.

 

There are many other ways to "recover" monies that bailiffs collect on.... attachment of earnings, withdrawl of benefit, etc. Bailiffs are an anachronism. AoE is good but only if the debtor is working. Deduction from state benefits works but only to a point. Some people wouldn't get any benefits at all if their debts were dealt with this way.

 

To state that bailiffs are crucial to the UK economy is laughable and egotistical in the extreme. I don't think even Gordon Browns ego would be big enough to claim that.

 

Pete

 

The concept is not mine but that of civil servants.

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Bailiff Uk, I do beg to differ and you can hold your opinions or state them here, to which people can read. You have every right to do so and state and quote the law and state and quote how you interpret it.

 

The difference is, that without our service like that of others such as the CAB no one would know their rights and you would be a law unto yourselves.

 

Bailiffs - your comment about how the country would be affected without you does make me laugh a little as without you, the consumer would be in less financial debt.

 

Oh Please!!!How did everyone survive before decriminalised parking and parking wardens that are like the Grinch!? There was a civilised system of fairness where you got a fine and there was a judge and you had a hearing and there was order. Now you are judged by a computer...that is like the show Little Britian...computer says..no.....

 

I challenge you to ask anyone that has received help from our service, while you quote facts and law and how it is, and put fear into them, that has not seen a more reasonable side of the system when we have dealt with them. Our only role is to factually, and I mean factually, to which again you will come back with the words misleading and I will correct you, a fair look at the system as it really is in the year 2000 and it is not half as rigid as you state.

 

You stated...

The role of debt advice agencies is to assist debtors in meeting their obligations in the most practical and least painful manner - not avoiding them.

 

How do you expect bailiffs to be agreeable and enter into arrangements with debtors more suitable to their terms when all you do is attack their very being?

 

We don't attack unless they do something wrong, I assure you many bailiffs know this and there are great companies out there.

 

We help and assist with people with organising payments and not avoiding their debts. We do not condone avoidance.

 

However, for every bailiff that is a rogue, thinks and behaves out of the law or guidelines, we will object to accordingly. Why shouldn't we have reasonableness.....what is fair to us...after all.....we are paying your wages!

 

Again you have avoided answering my statement....

 

So don't be fooled. The Bailiff Companies do in fact negotiate, why it is not in the interests of the Bailiff to negotiate as our office holds proof of, is that the Bailiff himself, remembering you are paying their wages, does not receive money till it is paid in full. No incentive to make agreements which is why we suggest at all times, phone the Bailiff office direct not the Bailiff.

 

And please note...................

 

I WILL NOT COME ON HERE AND ADVISE AS YOU DO. PEOPLE HAVE RIGHTS TO WHICH YOU TRY USING LAW AND LEGISLATION TO UNDERMINE OR HAVE INTERPRETED IN YOUR HISTORIC WAY TO INTIMIDATE TO GAIN PAYMENT. BAILIFFS ARE NOT UNREASONABLE, YES THEY ARE NEEDED, HOWEVER COSTS NEED TO BE REASONABLE AND RESPONSABILITY FOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR BETTER MONITORED.

 

Interesting to note as you stated before....some spoil it for others...you are right...but look at your own industry..the public are not the enemy..they pay your wages remember, so we are the good guys! winks....

 

Alison

 

It would be easier to respond if you calmed down and focussed on one issue at a time - and certainly easier for folk to follow.

 

Stating 'you would be a law unto yourself' assumes that all bailiffs are rogues and the system cannot control them in any way at all. Rubbish!

 

There are, and have been for many years, a wide range of advice agencies (even a Federation which represents them) which have assisted people fairly successfully and long before the internet was even thought of. I really don't think that The Watchdog has now become the supreme champion of debtors or ever will, especially when its boss spends a great deal of time posting anti-bailiff messages all over the web.

 

To say that consumers would be better off without bailiffs existing is to speak without thinking. The only bailiffs involved with consumer debt are county court bailiffs and (on high values) High Court Enforcement Officers. We (bailiffs) only deal with taxes, fines and penalties. If they are left unpaid then how would that make anyone better off (aside from the debtor of course). The cost would instead be borne by everyone else in higher taxes - the 'consumer' as you put it would suffer!

 

On one hand you clearly support bailiffs (great companies out there) provided they do not breach regulations. I can't argue with that and never have done! Conversley, you imply that all bailiffs are rogues.

 

Funnily enough the bulk of work undertaken by bailiffs has been decided by 'judges' whereas, the rest (parking penalties) are decided by the laws of the land and subject to countless stages of appeal. You either support the law or you don't.

 

I'm afraid I don't understand your call for me to answer your statement. If you would phrase it as a question, I will.

 

Finally, as this response is becomming as jumbled as your post, I do not post anything with a purpose to undermine or intimidate anyone. Quite the contrary. I post to give accurate information on issues which arise, although obviously I am also pressed for, and consequently express, opinion.

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Some people wouldn't get any benefits at all if their debts were dealt with this way.

 

You've just confirmed by this that there are some that shouldn't be pursued because their incomes are too low.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Fair enough. What would you call picking up on single word in terms of its context when it is clear enough what it means?

 

Stating that a fine can be "recovered" is not clarity it is disingenuity. It implies that the "transgressor" has somehow spent the fine. I was clarifying that this is not in fact the case.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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The concept is not mine but that of civil servants.

 

So you're quoting someone elses unsubstatiated opinion as fact then?

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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You've just confirmed by this that there are some that shouldn't be pursued because their incomes are too low.

 

Pete

 

That's not what I said at all. The level of income is not relevant to the seizure of goods. It may well be relevant when deciding what level of fine is imposed or how much council tax has to be paid but once a warrant is issued for non-payment of whatever that sum is, then the bailiff weighs up the value of goods not the level of income.

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Stating that a fine can be "recovered" is not clarity it is disingenuity. It implies that the "transgressor" has somehow spent the fine. I was clarifying that this is not in fact the case.

 

Pete

 

Fair enough - not worth arguing over. I was wrong! Permit me to retract that part of the statement and insert 'collected' - in line with the 'COLLECTION of Fines Scheme.

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Interesting how points become not worth arguing over when inaccuracies are pointed out.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Again, not worth arguing over. Either accept it or not. Not - clearly. It changes nothing.

 

That's a vacuous reply; of course it changes things. One of your points was that bailiffs are vital to the UK economy, you presented that as fact. Now it turns out that it is merely an unsubstantiated opinion.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Interesting how points become not worth arguing over when inaccuracies are pointed out.

 

Pete

 

Oh come on! One was a figure of speech and the other an opinion. Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm quite happy to debate issues with you Pete but not if they are irrelevant and you are just sniping for the sake of it.

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That's a vacuous reply; of course it changes things. One of your points was that bailiffs are vital to the UK economy, you presented that as fact. Now it turns out that it is merely an unsubstantiated opinion.

 

Pete

 

Even if I was able to provide you with a down to the penny figure of sums recovered, sorry - collected - by bailiffs which feed into the economy, we would still be arguing about what if this and what if that. It's an argument neither of us would be able to win. My comment was based on private conversations with Government economists. Like I said, take it or leave it. I chose to believe it, you choose not to. Fine. Let's agree to disagree......

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Oh come on! One was a figure of speech and the other an opinion. Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm quite happy to debate issues with you Pete but not if they are irrelevant and you are just sniping for the sake of it.

 

IMO precision is important. In a legal document a misplaced comma or an ill-chosen word can distort the meaning of an entire document. On here we deal with primarily legal issues so we should all endeavour to portray the correct meaning.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Even if I was able to provide you with a down to the penny figure of sums recovered, sorry - collected - by bailiffs which feed into the economy, we would still be arguing about what if this and what if that.

 

Of course we would.

 

Whomever was of the opinion that you portrayed displayed a fundamental misunderstanding. Any monies collected by bailiffs have an economically neutral effect at best because the act of confiscation removes that spending power from the individual and transfers it to the state, it merely deflects private spending into public spending which in itself tends to distort the entire economy into a depressive state as public spending tends to be less supportive of general wealth creation than private spending.

 

So at best the effects of the activities of bailiffs on the general economy are economically neutral and at worst are economically negative.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Guest The Terminator
You can obviously believe what you want but you cannot answer for me and consequently accuse me of being hypocritical!

 

But thats the whole point blfuk1 you are a hypocrite and obviously you don't like the truth.You stated that you would never get into the position of a baliff coming to your door so what are you a prophet.It is obvious that you are trying to justify your position and most proberly enjoy putting other members down.I note that you haven't answered the points made by Number 6, Watchdog and myself to name a few.A poster mentioned the HRA(1998) which should be your bible because it states what you can't do and if you read it there is one thing which crops up time and time again"public authority" I suggest you read it and post something constructive.:eek:

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But thats the whole point blfuk1 you are a hypocrite and obviously you don't like the truth.You stated that you would never get into the position of a baliff coming to your door so what are you a prophet.It is obvious that you are trying to justify your position and most proberly enjoy putting other members down.I note that you haven't answered the points made by Number 6, Watchdog and myself to name a few.A poster mentioned the HRA(1998) which should be your bible because it states what you can't do and if you read it there is one thing which crops up time and time again"public authority" I suggest you read it and post something constructive.:eek:

 

OK. Now you're getting personal and whatever I state on this site with good intention is always put down by a handful like yourself and No. 6 and the saviour of all, The Watchdog. Apologies to those who have PM'd me with thanks for the private help and to those who have pressed the scales and posted even handed and fair comment. I really can't be bothered with it anymore.

 

Merry Christmas......

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Bailiff Uk I for one would be dissapointed if you departed and did not input to the site.

 

While I don't agree with some of your views, I have appreciated often the information you have placed on the site.

 

I am not a savour of any sort I like many other services just try to help those in trouble to take responsability in a way that encourages them to take control of their situation. By empowering people to know they have some rights, means that are encouraged in dealing with things.

 

The powers you hold I have never questioned. I will always try and fight for someones rights. It is 1am and I am only just leaving the office now after a day of battles. Not battles for Bailiffs like you that genuinly seem to be fair with your opinions at times, but the rogues that are Bailiffs and their Companies that do make your job much harder.

 

Keep posting...I would be lost without you! You have kicked me at times and had me searching for information for a debate with you. Sorely missed for your opinions if you choose to not post again. Now going home at last.

 

Merry Christmas Bailiff UK. Alison x

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There are many other ways to "recover" monies that bailiffs collect on.... attachment of earnings, withdrawl of benefit, etc. Bailiffs are an anachronism.

 

I've been thinking of this solution all along, Pete! Surely it would be cheaper in the long run, and less bureaucratic! Well Done for bringing them to everyones attention!

 

nite:)

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OK. Now you're getting personal and whatever I state on this site with good intention is always put down by a handful like yourself and No. 6 and the saviour of all, The Watchdog. Apologies to those who have PM'd me with thanks for the private help and to those who have pressed the scales and posted even handed and fair comment. I really can't be bothered with it anymore.

 

Merry Christmas......

 

This is simply surreal.

 

I have refrained from commenting but I do disagree with some of the more personal comments posted against you, BUT I resent the accusation that I am putting you down! All that I have ever done is to pick up on points that I find to be inaccurate or misleading and attempt to clarify them. It would appear that because you do not agree with my counter arguments that you then consider this to be "putting you down" in some personal way..?? :???:

 

Oh well.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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If nothing this thread has given an insight to the minds who enforce the collection of fines penalties etc. Without attacking anyone it's clear that most think they are at worst above the law or at least that they interperate the law to suit a purpose. Their purpose.

 

Yes there is some case law that supports the bailiffs in some respects but the bailiff industry has taken that law & misinterpreted it or even bent it to justify their conduct.

 

The fact that their conduct has been directed at the vunerable in our society has meant that they have got away with it for years.

 

Now the more educated the more articulate are fiinding themselves caught up in simular situations in what was once the preserve of the uneducated & poor. This has caused the DCA's be up against people who are no longer prepared to be pushed around & are fighting back & much like the banks they don't like it.

 

My advice to any bailiffs & DCA's is to ensure beyond all reasonable doubt that your activities are above reproach otherwise more & more of you may find yourselves being asked to explain yourselves in a court of law. Much because of the authorities failure to take on the banks it's only a matter of time before consumers start bringing civil cases against the DCA's

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Guest MizzPiggy

You spoke what I thought JonCris.

 

Civil actions -11 we have in going into court in January 2007. People that we have encouraged to fight back at the system because of over charged fees and unreasonable demands.

 

None of them care if they win or lose, it is the point of making the stand that is the issue. You are right. Years ago it was the poor and vunerable that were their easy prey. Now it is Doctors and Policeman, teachers and Nurses, well to do people that find it outrageous.

 

A debt collector would have the same result. The Councils are greedy and using an old antiquated law that now more and more has society outraged at the damage of what it leaves behind when they are gone.

 

People that encounter a Bailiff, whether good or bad, so often tell us they feel violated and invaded, embarrassed and humiliated. Many did not even see it coming with the collection on parking fines let alone a bill that was overlooked.

 

I do miss Bailiff UK's input in many ways, as I could relate a little sometimes to what he had written as I spent a day out in training with a Bailiff to learn the other side. I did see people with contempt for the system but most did not realise the seriousness of what a Bailiff meant or their powers till you are at their door. I did feel somewhat powerfull for a day with a bullett proof vest on and the element of power that I felt I had with working alongside this Bailiff, as no matter what he said he was in control.

 

What I also saw, was the fear with people, when they realised how far something had gone, wanting to fix the problem immediatley but by then it was too late and they were the people I identified more with for what I do.

 

I took the vest off that day and debriefed with the Bailiff to which I was honest and said, for a day I felt empowered and that I could do their job! However, I would do it differently.

 

If I had my way, I would open my own Bailiff Company. I would employ only people that had had a Bailiff to their door and felt trapped and in a vulnerable position, as I am sure, that they would treat people the right way for collection, still getting a result, but leaving people with dignity and self respect and knowing that they were in control, not that they had just had what little they had left in self esteem or goods were taken.

 

Anyone want a job? laughs....

 

Bailiff UK is sorely missed from here I believe. As for all the values that were different, heated debates of interpretation of law, as that is what law is. A set of rules that are like elastic and can be pulled in different ways and stretches and is about logical arguement. I enjoy reading the posts for the logical arguement everyone has, to which many gather so much strength and information from.

 

Bailiffs will become a thing of the past. Debt Collectors or a half way point between the two will be found, or the outcry from the public and the accident waiting to happen where something will go, terribly wrong to hit the headlines, will be when it begins to change for good.

 

Bailiff UK, has made it clear that he owns a Bailiff Company. I am sure a good one as from his posts he does have a set of values, to which he feels he remedies it for all, with collection. It is the bad boys we have encountered the issue. Yes we as I had a bailiff for a parking fine that costs me £400! the fine was only £30. Council said they wrote letters, well I can tell you they didn't!!

 

So I don't know about you all, but I kind of miss Bailiff UK's input and logical arguements, as I genuinly learnt from him, as he is the key to us all learning rightly or wrongly what we think of his views. As it is those on the inside that share their knowledge, with respect we learn to fight back a little and find our own logic.

 

Sorely missed Bailiff UK. I do hope you return. Alison

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