Bought my own lost watch on Ebay

[SkintDan]

Hi,

 

My watch went missing off my wrist when I was out in Nov 2013. (Don't know if it fell off or was pinched).

 

I logged a report on reportmyloss as Merseyside police no longer log items such as watches unless specific criteria met.

 

I have regularly checked ebay to see if it would appear. This week I finally found it & won the bid!

 

The watch is definitely mine as it has a unique ID that matches the paperwork I have.

 

I have asked the seller how they ended up with the watch & they say they bought it off someone they used to work with.

 

I have explained that I have proof of purchase etc, but they have offered no refund.

 

Do I have anywhere to stand in trying to claim back the money I have paid for my own watch?

 

Many Thanks,

Danny.

[Ethel Street]

Is seller in the UK?

[SkintDan]

Hi yes they are, they actually dropped the watch off at my house after I purchased!

[silverfox1961]

Hi

I suggest that you contact the police as this guy has sold 'stolen' goods. The police may visit him and get the name of the guy who 'found' it.

 

I say stolen as anyone who finds lost property should hand it in to the local plod.

 

Have you involved Ebay at all? They wouldn't like to be seen as condoning the selling of dodgy goods.

[SkintDan]

Thanks for replies. I haven't contacted ebay yet as wasn't sure what my rights were to pursue. (This only happened this evening!)

[BankFodder]

In Anglo-Saxon legal systems – including England of course, the general rule is that once you own something, your ownership never ceases even if it is stolen from you. There is a Latin maxim for this –Nemo dat quod non habet - which translates to no man can give what he has not got to give – and which means that if you are not the owner of an item, that even if you pass it on to somebody else, that recipient gets possession of the item but they don't get the ownership of the item because the person who passed the item didn't have ownership to pass on.

 

I hope you understand this. I feel I have explained in a very clumsy way.

 

This means that the owner of stolen property remains the owner for all time.

 

Two exceptions to this are, if the item is taken to a jurisdiction which operates a different system, for instance France or Italy where if you buy something in good faith, even if it is stolen, then you also become the legal owner. This is not possible in Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions.

You will find that sometimes art objects are stolen either from Anglo-Saxon jurisdictions – or looted from South American archaeological sites – and probably middle eastern archaeological sites at the moment and then they are brought to art markets in Italy or France and sold to good-faith purchasers in order to take advantage of the legal system which allows ownership of an item to be transferred even if the item is stolen.

Once an item is purchased in one of these legal jurisdictions by a good-faith purchaser, it can then be safely traded all over the world because the legality of that transaction will be respected even by systems which use the Nemo dat system. Those art markets in those jurisdictions are great places for fencing stolen art and other cultural objects.

 

It is big business.

 

The second exception is where you lose something and you give up all expectation of its return so that it can be said that you have abandoned the item. The item then becomes ownerless. There is a Latin phrase for this as well – Res nullius – which means it becomes a no thing. At that point, whoever finds the item then becomes the legal owner. It can then be traded legally anywhere in the world.

 

I don't know whether you wanted all of this technical information. It can become very complicated – especially if one is dealing with items lost in a shipwreck or items which are discovered by metal detectorists in a farmer's field. It is also a very important area of law when dealing with the successors of Jewish victims of the Holocaust who had their art and jewellery looted by Nazis during the war.

 

Anyway, in principle you have the right to assert ownership to this item subject to your be able to provide proof. The person who sold you the item would in turn have to recover their money from the person who apparently sold it to them.

 

You could contact eBay – but you can be certain the eBay won't want to get involved. It is far too technical for them and you will probably find that they can't be arsed.

 

It may also be technically difficult to assert your right. You would have to sue the seller for conversion under the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act – and add an alternative claim for breach of contract. The breach of contract would be that the seller failed to pass on the ownership of the item to you because it was already yours.

 

You need to consider what is the value of the watch. You haven't told us. It would be interesting to know.

 

Do you have all the contact details of the seller?

 

It is a very interesting story and we would be very pleased that you keep us informed as to what happens here. We will help you as much as we can.

[BankFodder]

There is also a joke about a judge who became so drunk that he was unable to perform his duties as a husband on their wedding night.

 

When his wife complained about the quality of his performance, he pleaded –Nemo dat quod non habet. (See my translation above in order to understand the joke)

[Mike_hawk]

There is also a joke about a judge who became so drunk that he was unable to perform his duties as a husband on their wedding night.

 

When his wife complained about the quality of his performance, he pleaded –Nemo dat quod non habet. (See my translation above in order to understand the joke)

 

Nope, didn't get it [not in the biblical sense] needs some expansion

[SkintDan]

Ha ha, interesting read BankFodder, thanks.

 

For info:

 

My watch was £995 when bought 6 years ago (not mega bucks but a significant amount to me & missus - my wife had saved up for it for my 30th birthday).

The watch is now discontinued but is still sold on couple of sites @ £795-£895 new.

 

I have bought back off Ebay for £198

 

I have since contacted the seller couple of times:

 

q.) to ask if she still has contact with person who sold it to her a.) no, the last time she saw her when was when they were working together.

q.) could I have her name & place where they worked together a.) no reply as yet

 

I will post updates.

 

Cheers.

[SkintDan]

Update:

 

After no reply I re-asked the question this morning.

 

Just had a reply from her boyfriend who says she panicked last night & made up the story about buying it from girl she worked with.

 

What 'actually' happened was he bought the watch from a bloke who used to drink in his pub. The bloke apparently took his address & said he would send the paperwork so he had no idea it was lost or stolen.

 

He would gladly meet me to discuss

 

Still no offer of refund though!

[ashmk]

If you paid by Paypal just wait and open an item not received case. As they dropped it round they won't be able to prove shipping and you will be refunded. Job done!

[BankFodder]

If you paid by Paypal just wait and open an item not received case. As they dropped it round they won't be able to prove shipping and you will be refunded. Job done!

 

Sorry but this is an extremely bad idea

[SkintDan]

ha thanks ashmk - not really my style though + I don't know how big this lad is & he knows where I live now

[BankFodder]

I'm using a phone at the mo.

Please monitor this thread for a fuller advice tonight.

[SkintDan]

Will do, thanks again.

[BazzaS]

Update:

 

After no reply I re-asked the question this morning.

 

Just had a reply from her boyfriend who says she panicked last night & made up the story about buying it from girl she worked with.

 

What 'actually' happened was he bought the watch from a bloke who used to drink in his pub. The bloke apparently took his address & said he would send the paperwork so he had no idea it was lost or stolen.

 

He would gladly meet me to discuss

 

Still no offer of refund though!

 

If he bought it at significantly below market rate, then a court could conclude he had reason to suspect it was stolen, else why else would it be so cheap, and "off a man in a pub".

If he had reason to believe it was stolen, he could be convicted of handling stolen goods.

The girlfriend might also : she might claim she didn't know, but she certainly knew once she 'panicked', for why else would she panic?. She didn't have possession of the goods at the time, but she did (does!) have the money that you paid.....

 

Go to the police. They can investigate it properly, and ensure you get your money back (and keep the watch!).

 

However, did you claim on any insurance? This might complicate things as the insurers would become the new owner, and you might now be in possession of stolen property (although you can't steal your own property - the watch was originally yours, but would now belong to the insurers!)

[Ethel Street]

Bazza is technically correct that if you made an insurance claim and they paid out its full value to you then normally ownership of the watch transfers to insurers and if you find it again it's theirs. In practice it's highly unlikely they would want the watch, especially as you want to keep it, but insurers would want the amount they paid back. Not telling the insurers could potentially be fraud.

[SkintDan]

All sorted now. They guy says he paid £150 for it off bloke in the pub.

 

After a bit of tooing & froing, I said I'd accept £150 refund which has just been posted through my door.

 

Still feel a bit aggrieved that it cost £48 to get it back, but well worth it for sentimental value & considering I didn't really think I would see it again (14 months missing!)

 

I had a voucher from insurance company which I never spent so I will just get them to cancel it. Out of curiosity - will this enable policy to revert back to no claims? (Have never claimed on for anything else).

 

Thanks all for your input.

[Guest]

goodo.

but, did you get the police involved? this seller might be in the habit?

as bazza points, 2 limbs to handling.

 

maybe, if you never went ahead fully with claim. but, if they've sent that out in settlement of a claim? cld ask them.