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    • What do you guys think the chances are for her?   She followed the law, they didnt, then they engage in deception, would the judge take kindly to being lied to by these clowns? If we have a case then we should proceed and not allow these blatant dishonest cheaters to succeed 
    • I have looked at the car park and it is quite clearly marked that it is  pay to park  and advising that there are cameras installed so kind of difficult to dispute that. On the other hand it doesn't appear to state at the entrance what the charge is for breaching their rules. However they do have a load of writing in the two notices under the entrance sign which it would help if you could photograph legible copies of them. Also legible photos of the signs inside the car park as well as legible photos of the payment signs. I say legible because the wording of their signs is very important as to whether they have formed a contract with motorists. For example the entrance sign itself doe not offer a contract because it states the T&Cs are inside the car park. But the the two signs below may change that situation which is why we would like to see them. I have looked at their Notice to Keeper which is pretty close to what it should say apart from one item. Under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 Section 9 [2]a] the PCN should specify the period of parking. It doesn't. It does show the ANPR times but that includes driving from the entrance to the parking spot and then from the parking place to the exit. I know that this is a small car park but the Act is quite clear that the parking period must be specified. That failure means that the keeper is no longer responsible for the charge, only the driver is now liable to pay. Should this ever go to Court , Judges do not accept that the driver and the keeper are the same person so ECP will have their work cut out deciding who was driving. As long as they do not know, it will be difficult for them to win in Court which is one reason why we advise not to appeal since the appeal can lead to them finding out at times that the driver  and the keeper were the same person. You will get loads of threats from ECP and their sixth rate debt collectors and solicitors. They will also keep quoting ever higher amounts owed. Do not worry, the maximum. they can charge is the amount on the sign. Anything over that is unlawful. You can safely ignore the drivel from the Drips but come back to us should you receive a Letter of Claim. That will be the Snotty letter time.
    • please stop using @username - sends unnecessary alerts to people. everyone that's posted on your thread inc you gets an automatic email alert when someone else posts.  
    • he Fraser group own Robin park in Wigan. The CEO's email  is  [email protected]
    • Yes, it was, but in practice we've found time after time that judges will not rule against PPCs solely on the lack of PP.  They should - but they don't.  We include illegal signage in WSs, but more as a tactic to show the PPC up as spvis rather than in the hope that the judge will act on that one point alone. But sue them for what?  They haven't really done much apart from sending you stupid letters. Breach of GDPR?  It could be argued they knew you had Supremacy of Contact but it's a a long shot. Trespass to your vehicle?  I know someone on the Parking Prankster blog did that but it's one case out of thousands. Surely best to defy them and put the onus on them to sue you.  Make them carry the risk.  And if they finally do - smash them. If you want, I suppose you could have a laugh at the MA's expense.  Tell them about the criminality they have endorsed and give them 24 hours to have your tickets cancelled and have the signs removed - otherwise you will contact the council to start enforcement for breach of planning permission.
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Car Hire Agreements - TfL & PATAS re-writing law?!


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I want to bring to the attention of the Caggers a practice by TfL that I believe has serious implications for Car Hire Agreements. I’ll explain.

 

A friend of a friend brought to my attention that TfL has been telling Car Hire firms that they are liable for Congestion Charges and PCNs if the agreement they have with the hirer is for more than a 6 month period. TfL stated the following to support their assertions:

 

Section 66 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, which is the adopted definition used by the Road User Charging Regulations, requires that a hire agreement must be for a fixed period of less than six months to enable the transfer of liability when a vehicle is on hire.

 

We would like to bring to your attention that since the hire period shown on the agreement is for a period of six months or greater, the document does not fall within the definition of a hire agreement and therefore liability cannot be transferred to the hirer of the vehicle.

 

The gentleman concerned had made an appeal to PATAS and surprise surprise, the adjudicator from that collusive organisation supported TfL’s stance. It must be borne in mind that TfL is the ONLY local authority making this assertion.

 

Straightaway I saw the ramifications of such a ruling as PATAS has effectively allowed TfL to re-write contract, hire agreement and statute law to support their stance.

 

I decided to prepare a Request to Review for him to file in December of last year. In between waiting for a confirmation, the gentleman received a letter from TfL which was clearly a desperate attempt to sway the PATAS as it stated nothing new and attempted to cast aspersions on the legality of the Review.

 

The review was allowed but PATAS eventually replied to my detailed submission supporting TfL – surprise surprise – citing the very same section TfL quoted as meaning Hire Agreement contracts can only be for 6 months.

 

The regulation is Section 66(7) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 which states,

 

This section applies to a hiring agreement under the terms of which the vehicle concerned is let to the hirer for a fixed period of less than six months (whether or not that period is capable of extension by agreement between the parties or otherwise); and any reference in this section to the currency of the hiring agreement includes a reference to any period during which, with the consent of the vehicle-hire firm, the hirer continues in possession of the vehicle as hirer, after the expiry of the fixed period specified in the agreement, but otherwise on the terms and conditions so specified.

 

Now as you can clearly read in the first line it states This section applies to a hiring agreement under the terms of which the vehicle concerned is let to the hirer for a fixed period of less than six months.

 

Now anyone reading that would believe that section only applies to hire-agreements that are for a period of 6 months or less which means it wouldn’t apply to the gentleman’s hire agreements which are for a year. Yet the PATAS adjudicator states,

 

Therefore for liability to be transferred to the hirer, the Hiring Agreement must be for less than 6 months.

 

I don’t know how TfL & PATAS can interpret the regulation above as such! Am I being Blind? Dumb? Stubborn?!

 

I made a detailed submission citing various pieces of legislation I felt were relevant which the adjudicator wrote “wrong”, “mistaken”, “misconceived”, without providing statutory evidence to support his stance and wilfully ignoring valid legislative aspects of the appeal.

 

I am willing to post the appeal and the reply for further scrutiny but before I tell the gentleman to consider a High Court Review, I am posting the basic argument here, on Pepipoo and Moneysavingexpert for feedback in light of the implications.

 

Quite simply, are TfL and PATAS right?

 

If it will be a High Court review, I will be advising the gentleman to pool the resources of other hire companies finances as it will affect them as well.

 

Also, whilst I await a response, do you pay the PCN if you intend to go for a HCR or make TfL know it is still being contested?

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When I worked in car rental, no rental agreement was allowed to run for longer than 28 days, we did a new rental agreement every 28 days and quite often changed the vehicle as well.

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After reading s66 of the Act I agree with TfL's interpretation. My reading of the Act is that liability for the charges is imposed by sections 63-65 not by section 66 (although the Act only talks about fixed penalty notices not congestion charge).

 

Sections 63-65 of the Act seem to allow fixed penalty charges to be recovered from the owner of a vehicle.

 

Section 66 creates an exception to that rule. Section 66(4) says that it is the hirer who is liable not the owner. But section 66(7) says that this exception only applies where we are talking about a hire agreement of less than six months.

 

Since your friend can't rely on section 66, the usual rules in 63-65 apply and hence he is liable to pay the charges as owner of the vehicle.

 

Can't your friend charge the cost back to the customer? There should be an indemnity in his T&Cs for this kind of thing.

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We are talking Congestion Charges here and unless I misunderstood Steampowered, it was TfL relying on Section 66 to justify their enforcement, not the hirer to protect him. So if Sections 63-65 allow Tfl to do so, then again they and PATAS are incorrect because they both stated Section 66 as justification.

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I made the argument on the basis of an agreed contract and ownership of the vehicle under contract at the time of the ConCharge/PCN issue and cited various legislation that made reference to 'Statement of Liablity', which is in effect what the hirer of the vehicle signed with his hire agreement.

 

After reading your submissions I find it disconcerting that TfL - or anyone else for that matter - has a right to intercede into a contract wilfully entered. However if you require the full details, let me know and I will upload them.

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I made the argument on the basis of an agreed contract and ownership of the vehicle under contract at the time of the ConCharge/PCN issue and cited various legislation that made reference to 'Statement of Liablity', which is in effect what the hirer of the vehicle signed with his hire agreement.

 

 

One complication is the difference in the legislation. For PCNs, the owner/keeper is liable. For the congestion charge it is the registered keeper.

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Ok, I see what you are saying steampowered - there is a difference in enforcement ownership practice for PCNs to Congestion Charges.

 

However, seeing as the Road User Charging (Charges and Penalty Charges) (London) Regulations 2001 Regulation 6(b) clearly references 'Statement of Liability' as does the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 Schedule 4(1)(2) - both of which I quoted in the appeal - isn't this a valid argument for the hirer of the vehicle to be liable especially when the Hire Agreement signed included the following text:

 

“Any parking infringements/contraventions are the sole responsibility of the driver and all fines must be paid within the relevant period set by the charging authority”.

 

Also bear in mind "the act you mentioned" is the Act brought up by TfL, I merely attempted to challenge their & the PATAS assertions regarding its relevancy in relation to the gentleman's hire agreements.

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  • 4 weeks later...

UPDATE: I've read the 'Autolease Limited vs the London Borough of Barnet and Other Cases’ and after doing so I've adivsed the gentleman concerned to bite the bullet and restructure his business to ensure he doesn't fall foul of the various stipulations.

 

Though I still can't shake the uncomfortable feeling of corporate yet again corralling us to their will!

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