A couple of questions re Co-Operative Bank credit card

[fredsdebt]

Hi All, thank you for your time reading this thread.

 

I have just recived following my CCA request the following which I have uploaded to Photobucket.

 

The copies are poor but hopefully clear enough to see if it is enforceable or not?

 

The first 2 links below are the two pages completed and signed by myself in November 2006 which is a few months inside the April 2007 cut-off.

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard1.jpg

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard2.jpg

 

 

The next 2 pages (very poor copies) look like copies of the terms and conditions from the Co-Operative Banks archives as these are clearly not part of what I originally signed. The top of the first page (below) shows a Fax date stamp as being "16/06/2009 Tues" so the copies below have been faxed proberbly to try and "support" other CCA requests as the Co-Operative Bank do not have the originals for each credit card applied for by their customers.

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard4.jpg

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard3.jpg

 

My view is that the main 2 pages (above which I completed) is merely an Application Form. Can I also disregard the other 2 copies of the terms and conditions as they are clearly seperate documents?

 

Any views would be gratefully recieved.

 

Thanks,

[Tartan Barty]

TBH it doesn't really matter if it is unenforcable or not with the Co-op. I have a CC agreement without any prescribed terms on it and thats all they have. I have made formal complaints and they still insist that it is enforcable yet they won't take me to court. They have just defaulted me without even sending through a default notice () and have passed it on to Fredrickson and Bryan Carter. So good luck, they don't listen and you won't get them to admit anything!!!

[fredsdebt]

Hi 'Tartan Barty' thanks for your input. I look forward to hearing from Fredrickson and Bryan Carter!!

[lickthewallfatboy]

TBH it doesn't really matter if it is unenforcable or not with the Co-op. I have a CC agreement without any prescribed terms on it and thats all they have. I have made formal complaints and they still insist that it is enforcable yet they won't take me to court. They have just defaulted me without even sending through a default notice () and have passed it on to Fredrickson and Bryan Carter. So good luck, they don't listen and you won't get them to admit anything!!!

 

ditto

 

only I'm about to take call credit to court for showing 2 defaults in consecutive months

 

£1000 per default is being claimed from them

[fredsdebt]

ditto

 

only I'm about to take call credit to court for showing 2 defaults in consecutive months

 

£1000 per default is being claimed from them

 

 

By the way who are 'Call Credit'?

 

How are they linked to The Co-Op Bank's Credit Cards?

 

Thanks,

[vint1954]

Hi All, thank you for your time reading this thread.

 

I have just recived following my CCA request the following which I have uploaded to Photobucket.

 

The copies are poor but hopefully clear enough to see if it is enforceable or not?

 

The first 2 links below are the two pages completed and signed by myself in November 2006 which is a few months inside the April 2007 cut-off.

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard1.jpg

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard2.jpg

 

 

The next 2 pages (very poor copies) look like copies of the terms and conditions from the Co-Operative Banks archives as these are clearly not part of what I originally signed. The top of the first page (below) shows a Fax date stamp as being "16/06/2009 Tues" so the copies below have been faxed proberbly to try and "support" other CCA requests as the Co-Operative Bank do not have the originals for each credit card applied for by their customers.

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard4.jpg

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/Coopclearcard3.jpg

 

My view is that the main 2 pages (above which I completed) is merely an Application Form. Can I also disregard the other 2 copies of the terms and conditions as they are clearly seperate documents?

 

To be honest, the first page looks as though it would stand as an agreement on its own, so I would say it is enforcable. The document is headed agreement, not application form. The only term that I cannot make out, as it is blurred, is the monthly payment term, which looks as thouh it is top right.

The second 2 pages are current terms and conditions. They should have supplied terms and conditions from 2006 plus a signed statement of the account to date.

 

Any views would be gratefully recieved.

 

Thanks,

Vint

[fredsdebt]

Hi vint1954, looks like it is - thats what I thought.

 

Oh well, at least I didnt have to endure your 'cornflake box' gag again!

 

Thanks,

[vint1954]

Hi vint1954, looks like it is - thats what I thought.

 

Oh well, at least I didnt have to endure your 'cornflake box' gag again!

 

Thanks,

Sorry fred,

 

Now out of cornflakes but have some sugar puff boxes available.

[fredsdebt]

Update.....

 

Trying to settle this with them by offering a Full & Final settlement. No reply back yet.

 

Thanks,

[fredsdebt]

Nothing back from Co-Op although reading here and there it seems like consensus is Co-Op dont listen, dont reply and dont care or have a clue.

Too busy raking in the money from 'happy customers' to deal with me in a reasonable and "Co-Operative" way.

 

 

Had a few computer generated letters stating the obvious (ie. you are behind with your account) but thats it.

 

 

They continue to load my account up with penalty charges and interest despite me asking them several times to look at this in my current circumstances etc. etc.

 

I have made an offer so ball is in their court - I am not contacting them anymore.

 

Thanks,

[fredsdebt]

Hi,

 

I have just got a copy of what I think is just and application form for a Co-Op Gold Visa account.

 

Any comments on whether this would be enforceable in court would be most welcome as I am currently getting threats for such action. Any other advice welcome.

 

Here are links to the copies:

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/CoOpGoldVisa1.jpg

 

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac120/fredsdebt/CoOPGoldVisa2.jpg

 

Many thanks,

[alfwithhair]

Were the terms on a seperate sheet or on the reverse of the application?

 

Looking at it I would say they are the terms they refer to and would have been on the reverse, so IMO a court would enforce it

[fredsdebt]

Were the terms on a seperate sheet or on the reverse of the application?

 

Looking at it I would say they are the terms they refer to and would have been on the reverse, so IMO a court would enforce it

 

Looking at what I have been sent it does look like they are part of the same document - has same ref number at bottom of each. I was looking at the front page which says "application form" at top left.

 

Thanks,

[alfwithhair]

application forms are enforceable providing they contain the prescribed terms and have been signed by both parties, yours appears to contain the necessary requirements, so I would be suprised if a judge didn't enforce it.

 

Any default notice or termination notice been received for the account?

[fredsdebt]

application forms are enforceable providing they contain the prescribed terms and have been signed by both parties, yours appears to contain the necessary requirements, so I would be suprised if a judge didn't enforce it.

 

Any default notice or termination notice been received for the account?

 

Thanks for the info. Yes, I have had default notices and a termination letter. I am think how best to get out of this - proberbly by trying to negotiate a Full and Final or a Short Settlement.

 

Any suggestions welcome?

 

Thanks,

[alfwithhair]

post the default notice up on here, it maybe invalid

[fredsdebt]

Hi,

 

I have an issue with the Co-Operative bank and a credit card account that I have with them.

 

 

Firstly I have evidence that they have issued incorrect default notices and termination notice as the required numbers of days was not correctly given.

 

 

I have pointed this fact out to them and they issued revised default notices and a second termination notice (this time allowing the correct number of days).

 

 

I have rejected their reissuing of the default notice and again pointed out their original error.

 

 

I obviously kept copies of all their letters.

 

 

As a matter of interest the account has not been passed to any debt collectors or solicitors.

 

 

Amount outstanding is over £9k and this has been terminated (originally) in May 2010

after arguing about the lack of them being able to provide an form of valid credit agreement since January 2009.

 

It has now been a number of months since I have heard from them and

all I get now each month is a credit card statement which shows another months interest calculation

and £12 charge for being overlimit and £12 for late payment default.

 

 

Interestingly I also get their regular updates on changes to the terms and conditions of the credit card

and a bit of junk mail with special offers on things like Co-Operative Insurance etc...

 

I also note on my credit file with Experian that they continue to record defaults on my not paying anything and being in arreas etc.

 

 

. I am sure their tactic is if they cant collect on the account then leave it and simply trash my credit file with defaults etc..

 

 

If they had a strong case to collect or take me to court then why havent they done so?

 

My questions are if they have Terminated my credit card account then:

 

1. Should they still be applying interest and penalty charges?

2. Should they still be recording my default each month with Experian etc..?

3. Should they still be using my data to send me junk mail/mail shots and account updates?

4. Can a credit card account be terminated twice?

 

Any advice or comments welcome.

 

Thanks,

[cecilrhode]

1) No - there is no agreement in existence that is required under the CCA, the agreement must specify charges

2) Depends on your point of view. Many say no because if they ended the agreement incorrectly, all that is owed is the overdue amount, and there is no agreement specifying when payments are due. Others disagree

3) Thats a separate matter, handled by a different dept. Yu can opt out of junk mail

4) Obviously not. it has to be open/live to be terminated. Once its terminated it isn't open/live. However, what they actually terminate is the agreement. The 'account' can be closed, and another one opened eg, you lose your card, you become eligiable for a 'gold' card etc. If they sent you a letter saying they WERE ending the agreement, but didn't actually do it before you told them the DN was faulty, then they could issue a correct DN, then termiante.

[Stigman]

Hi Fredsdebt,

 

Hopefully this will bump you up a tad, will answer to the best of my knowledge only so you need to check independantly or others with full knowledge of account termination will advise further.

 

My Answers are...

1) No, unless stated in your terms and conditions if the account has been terminated (but also has they failed to provide a valid CCA, it does not matter how much they add on until they produce a fully enforcable copy).

2) Yes, they legally can, it should be recorded with a number 8 every month.

3) It is in your terms and conditions, you will have to write to them to remove your name and address for their mailing database.

4) Don't think so, but you may need to send a SAR to see whats going on (costs £10 postal order and they should supply within 40 calender days)

 

But as it has been months since you heard from them, don't send the SAR as you do not want to rock the boat and have the collection process all starting again.

 

Stigman

[fredsdebt]

Hi Stigman and Cecil, thank you both very much for your comments regarding my questions on this thread. I appreciate your input.

 

My original SAR only produced an application form for this credit card (which was opened way back early 1990's). I have had the usual letters pointing out that as I have used the card and spent the credit avaialble had previously paid my monthly statement on time etc.. that I have clearly shown that I have obviously accepted the terms and conditions etc... etc.. and therefore the agreement is valid and I should pay up. Does anyone have a view point on credit card companies taking this kind of line trying to justify/convince you that you have an obligation now to pay based on this argument (although we dont have the correct paperwork to take you to Court if you dont pay)?

 

It looks to me that from what I allready know and from trawling around on the various threads here on CAG and reading both your comments that it looks like the Co-Op havent got much to go on and proberbly know they cant do much against me as they dont have a clear CCA (only an application form) with none of the prescribed terms and they also must know that they messed up the default and termination notices. They tried via their inhouse legal dept to "tidy up" the error on the default and termination trying to put the original error down to some admin/computer mix up.

 

Their last letter from their inhouse legal dept (solicitior M Broadhead) says (quote):

 

"The bank acknowledges that none of the Termination Notices served were in fact effective in terminating the Agreement, as the requisite time period was not afforded to you to rectify the default. As such your account was terminated incorrectly. I appologise for the inconvenience and confusion this must have caused"

 

He then goes on to say in his letter:

 

"The effect of the incorrectly served notices is that the bank cannot enforce the debt against you although it is still entitled to take certain recovery action, including the issue of court proceedings during the period of default"

 

Their angle on this after several confusing paragraphs is that they believe that I have not suffered any detriment as a result of the dfault & termination errror. Basically they seem to be saying as its a few days and that they re terminated the agreement with the correct number of days a few months later that this has put things right. So why confirm (in the quote above) that they cant enforce the debt?

 

I think they are happy now to continue trashing my credit file and wait untill I need to raise some credit with someone else in the future to realise how much damage this will have done.

 

I take the point that maybe I should leave things as they are and not stir things up anymore by doing another SAR?

 

But,

 

Should I go for it and get them to stop trashing my credit file and get them to write the account off? When I say go for it I am worried that it could pop up again or maybe they try some kind of reconstruction to provide a "valid" CCA (using the 'Carey' judgement) and try their luck again at a later date.

 

Any advice?

 

Thanks,

Edited April 2, 2011 by fredsdebt

[cecilrhode]

they can't enforce it as they have no agreement.

 

the DNs and termination malarkey is about whether you owe the full amount or just the arrears when it was closed. Look up repudiation on here and Google.

 

whether you were prejudiced by the incorrect time is a moot point. are they prejudiced if you go over your credit limit by £1, or if your payment is a day late or £1 short? if they are or are not, they still charge you £12, so they obviously think that a day matters!

 

the fact is the statute states what the time allowed is, not recommend or suggest, it states it. it is not for them to say that Parliament was wrong because 10 days is just as good as 14. A few years ago the time allowed for 7 days, and was increased to 14 as it was recognised the customer needed time to get his head round the DN, check his records, get legal advice etc, and then allow 4 days for payment into his account. If Paliamanet thought that 10 days was enough, the Statute would allow 10 days, and not state 14.

 

as usual, the banks have their own intepretation of the law.

 

I would let things cool for a while - they can't enforce it without an agreement, and then in 6 months or so, make them an offer to pay it off, based on the arrears. The debt is unenforceable, without an agreement a court is prohibited from making a judgement, and your offer should be based on the fact that your goodwill is the only way they can raise any money towards this debt.

 

btw, if you DID accept the terms and conditions, they'd have proof wouldn't they?

 

technically, I suppose you should make a CCA request, and when they fail to provide an agreement,put the account into dispute which (I believe) prevents them from selling the debt. However, they are likely to supply a reconstructed agreement (what they claim your agreement looked like) which kind of gets them off the hook regards selling.

 

Have a look at the thread callled something like "hitting back with CPUTR 2008" and study it

 

don't acknowledge the debt, it is 'alledged', and don't make any payments. the statute bar date is 6 years from the last acknowledment or payment, after that no one can enforce the debt, agreement or not

[nicklea]

My questions are if they have Terminated my credit card account then:

 

1. Should they still be applying interest and penalty charges?

 

Yes - have a read or the terms and conditions for the co-op credit card:-

 

12.4 When the agreement ends we will continue to apply interest until you have paid everything you owe under the agreement.

 

and you still have to pay the money back:-

 

13.4 If we do withdraw any Card or close your account in any of the circumstances referred to above you must nevertheless continue to comply with this agreement until any outstanding balance on your account has been repaid.

 

 

2. Should they still be recording my default each month with Experian etc..?

 

Yes, the ICO has decided that they can do this.

 

3. Should they still be using my data to send me junk mail/mail shots and account updates?

 

Yes, again have a read of the terms and conditions.

 

 

4. Can a credit card account be terminated twice?

 

No, it wasn't terminated the first time as they hadn't served a proper notice. I would suggest that it was your gouding of them that led to them doing it correctly.

[nicklea]

My original SAR only produced an application form for this credit card (which was opened way back early 1990's).

 

This is absolutely vital to your position. As long as that application form does not contain the prescribed terms under Schedule 6 as to repayment, credit limit and rate of interest then I would suggest that you are home and dry.

 

I take the point that maybe I should leave things as they are and not stir things up anymore by doing another SAR?

I would totally agree with you on that

 

 

But,

 

Should I go for it and get them to stop trashing my credit file and get them to write the account off? When I say go for it I am worried that it could pop up again or maybe they try some kind of reconstruction to provide a "valid" CCA (using the 'Carey' judgement) and try their luck again at a later date.

 

I really would suggest that would be quite dangerous to take them to court. However, if you do try and do this then you would need to show that the terms and conditions did not allow them to share your data with a third party

[DonkeyB]

They were correct to reissue a correct DN and then terminate, as the original termination could not actually happen if the DN was incorrect. They are entitled to do this. There is no repudiation, as the account was not, technically, terminated. So travelling this route is a blind alley. There is ample case law on this.

 

But if they cannot produce an agreement, even a recon, they have a problem. I don't think they should be adding over limit and late charges if the agreement has been terminated.

[cecilrhode]

i don't see how they can be adding charges - there is no agreement giving them the right to do so. you haven't agreed to their terms and conditions, so what right do they have to charge anything. without a valid agreement, they have made a gift of the money. they can ask for it back, thats all

 

as for repudiation, there is considerable debate about it. look it up and make your own decision. as for the DNs, most agree that when the account is terminated, a 2nd DN cannot be served as there is no live agreement to serve it on. you cannot default what doesn't exist. Whether the first DN and termination paperwork was correct, they can effectively terminate by their actions. The crux is when are you entitled to believe that the agreement is terminated - if they refuse to fulfil their responsibilities and satisfy your rights under the contract, they cannot expect you not to do the same, regardless of whether the paperwork is correct. They can repudiate by their actions, as well as by faulty paperwork. As i said, research repudiation as there is a lot of debate, and no case law in the finance sector, but loads of it in contract law.

 

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200607/ldjudgmt/jd070328/golden-1.htm this is a well known case

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?170345

http://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/index.php/contract/7474-understanding-repudiatory-breach

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/1961/5.html an interesting case

http://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/index.php/contract/7297-implications-of-contractual-termination-clauses-on-common-law-rights General description.discussion

http://www.gillhams.com/dictionary/434.cfm A simple description of repudiation

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199900/ldjudgmt/jd000330/hurst-1.htm This shows how things can become complicated