Link & Natwest Credit Card CCA - they say it doesnt apply agreement is terminated?

[NitrousOxide]

You only have a binding agreement when your signature is put to it. I've never made or signed for new agreements when debts have been sold to a DCA or other institution.

Therefore by certain posts above, the agreement ends when it's sold on. I haven't signed a new agreement with the DCA so therefore no debt exists?

[mickthemiller]

Zoot, I appreciate your input and I have no doubts as to your intentions.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record but how do I legally know that I owe this DCA money?

[zootscoot]

Hi Mick,

 

The best thing to find out if the debt was paid off is to do a SAR on Natwest. Also you could perhaps ask your parents to do a SAR on their bank account so you can check if the amounts tally.

 

Under a SAR the data controller is legally obliged to send all the information they have on you, although the banks tend to just send statements. Make sure in your SAR letter that you make it clear that you want all info including in particular:

 

*any proof of a default notice being sent

*whether the agreement was in fact terminated

*Final statement of account if it was terminated

*If any money was payable under the termination of the agreement and how much

*If the agreement was not terminated, any balance outstanding.

*If any amount outstanding whether terminated or not, to whom it was sold and date of sale.

 

This should then help you to discover if you need to pay. Have you had any luck with Link Financial putting the accounton hold?

 

All the best

 

Zoot

[debt_mountain]

My heed is nippin' now.

 

So does this mean the old CCA letter is out the window? Do we need the folks in the know to draft up a new letter / process for working with the DCAs to prove a debt and identify if it is enforceable or not?

 

I am going to update my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) requests to the original lenders (is there a timelimit for SARs afterwhich you have to repay the fee? - I guess not as you are just asking for info you beleive they have failed to supply.) for my assigned/sold debts and ask for the default notices, default amount date etc as advised by zoot above.

[debt_mountain]

Something else I think may be a little dogy and the court may not like is that when an agreemnts extends to 2 pages but you only sign 1 how do you or the court know that the second page is actually the second page of what you signed.

 

I have 3 blackhorse agreements where the section about sharing my info is on page 2, it doesn't have my signature on it so how do I know it is a true copy of page 2 of MY agreement?

[Pandora_nini]

Hello, have been reading your threads with interest. I have an CC debt which was sold to Link (within days of me reaching a payment plan with the CC company). I had several nasty calls from Link, and although I was prepared to talk to them about arranging to pay they really werent interested. - I had asked for it all to be in writing. Anyway, on advice from this site, I sent a CCA request to them last week- am anxious now having read these threads that they don't need to fulfill this, and it may have inflamed the situtation. I need to be quite clear - I don't have an issue with paying back legitimate debts, however, a lot of my CC is made up of unfair charges and I am just starting the process of reclaiming these.

 

Can you advise me on this?

 

Thanks

[zubo]

Hello, have been reading your threads with interest. I have an CC debt which was sold to Link (within days of me reaching a payment plan with the CC company). I had several nasty calls from Link, and although I was prepared to talk to them about arranging to pay they really werent interested. - I had asked for it all to be in writing. Anyway, on advice from this site, I sent a CCA request to them last week- am anxious now having read these threads that they don't need to fulfill this, and it may have inflamed the situtation. I need to be quite clear - I don't have an issue with paying back legitimate debts, however, a lot of my CC is made up of unfair charges and I am just starting the process of reclaiming these.

 

Can you advise me on this?

 

Thanks

 

Pandora

 

The situation in this thread was slightly different - having fast scanned it.

The agreement had been terminated - so they got around it that way.

Yours is different, so do not worry.

 

I have my own strategy here which you are welcome to use:

post #49

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/57839-newman-debt-collection-agents-3.html

 

In brief - you should establish the enforceability or otherwise of your agreement with the CCA request, then seperately you need the SAR to calculate penalty and other unlawful charges.

 

Also refer to

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/82492-cca-agreements-mark-ii.html

 

and we are building more CCA knowledge in the Workshop here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources.html

 

Hope that helps

 

Z

[Monty2007]

There is some confusion in this thread and others that are on this same topic.

 

It seems very clear to me from several cases (Zubo's' being the most impressive and relevant) that the lack of production of a "valid" CCA is provides a legal loophole for questioning the validity of the T&C's that were "allegedly" entered into at the start of the relationship. (for "valid" see all the wonderful work that Pete has done).

 

The fact that the debt exists (by proof of statements etc) is not in dispute in most cases I have read, it is a question of what terms the creditor can apply (interest, charges, data processing, default provisions etc, etc - the contractual terms) following default or termination (on this point they surely have to have a valid and contractual legal reason for termination).

 

My own case with Amex relates to the way in which they issued a default notice, used a DCA to collect (not assign) and then increase interest rates and impose charges. When questioned they state that the CCA/T&C's allow them to impose such at their discretion (yet they have terminated through default), so it seems to me that they have their cake and eat it. So its simple, let's see the CCA and T&C's that I allegedly agreed to? Seems fair enough?

 

Incidentally, I believe that Amex did not assign my debt since they were probably asked to supply the CCA by the DCA? The DCA's must be wise to this one by now - why buy a debt if you have no chance of enforcement? They would go bust in a few weeks..............

 

I would also suggest that some of these agreements (where they actually exist of course) could be challenged as unfair contracts since the critical terms (interest and charges etc) seem to be left to the creditor to change at their will (this is the case in Amex T&C's).

 

I simply seek to challenge their ability to impose random charges and increasing interest rates in the absence of a "valid" CCA. Plus ruin my credit rating and have some bunch of morons (DCA) make my life a misery. I did not agree to this.

 

I deal with commercial licensing contracts in intellectual property and product development/manufacturing as a job - I cannot believe that a bank/CCA would not keep copies of what is essentially the most critical document. We have our original agreements kept in a fire-proof safe and also a back up copy scanned into our database which is also backed up at an external site. So we have 3 copies of all our agreements - why don't the banks/CCC's?

 

I am in no doubt that Zubo's approach and focus on this area is spot on - I have followed the same and have Amex on the ropes, they cannot find the CCA and even their DCA have stopped their aggressive approaches even through I have stopped paying them. Usually they would be on the phone 20 times a day.

 

TS asked me to call them since they did not want to e-mail, they told me I had a strong case and in their opinion Amex would not attempt at enforcement in court in the absence of the CCA. Their process and procedures would be torn to pieces without much effort, so even the statement items could then be challenged. If they can't be bothered to save the contact with which they seek to enforce their rights then what must their ability to accurately record what you have spent be like?

 

I intend (like Zubo) to essentially get them to now enforce following the 12 + 30 day period. They would have to go through legal disclosure in terms of supplying key documents that they may rely on in court and even if they then did produce they would have committed a criminal offense.

 

I would welcome comments and any relevant cases that support or challenge this position.

[zubo]

I deal with commercial licensing contracts in intellectual property and product development/manufacturing as a job - I cannot believe that a bank/CCA would not keep copies of what is essentially the most critical document. We have our original agreements kept in a fire-proof safe and also a back up copy scanned into our database which is also backed up at an external site. So we have 3 copies of all our agreements - why don't the banks/CCC's?

 

Excellent post.

I suspect there are at least two main issues:

 

(i) When you write as much business as they do, you very quickly run out of huge warehouses to store the paper - and how do you find someones docs amongst all that pile of paper? Think of the problem in reverse - as a nation we create a lot of waste - we are having huge problems trying to dispose of it all - never mind retain it.....

 

(ii) Either not much attention paid or lipservice or total ignorance to the CCA 1974. Back then too you may get the few intelligent people who pushed for a response to the CCA. So, the consequence is that most CCPs have written all their business based on poor documents which do not comply with CCA and carry out flawed processes (complete absence of S85). That weak combination in conjunction with the explosion and sharp focus caused by the Internet has fatally damaged their business model.

 

.... and the UK rot is spreading to Europe and shock horror to the US of A. Tough sh... Crap1 and MBNA... and Amex...

 

The Consumers are finally waking up to what this really means... begining to understand that they do have rights... and that the CCPs AND DCAs have strict laws to comply with and that we are all now well aware of what that is.

 

btw, do not forget unenforceable debt is only one goal, I have moved my sights onto Restitution. If they have taken money from you (from the start of using your CC) in the form of Penalty Charges and Interest AND the agreement is completely unenforceable then there is a very strong argument to say that they were aware that it was unenforceable but chose not to tell you (and you dont have to prove that), they committed an error, you are entitled to all these charges back.

 

Also, same applies under S85 - if they have not issued you with a true copy of your original agremment EVERY time they issued you with a new card (eg lost card, card renewed, everyone had a new one with chip n pin) then from the date of the new card you can claim restitution up until they produce a true copy of the agreement (if at all).

 

Z

[uglynine]

Hi there,

 

I've posted a new thread at http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/111791-agonynine-link-financial-dca.html, and would greatly value your advice and experience!

 

Many thanks,

 

Agonynine