Another DVLA Sorn LLP attempted mugging to report!

[Crossword]

Hi CAG! Well I have been through all the usual DVLA LLP nonsense stuff, and now just received response to Dispute form V991 saying how they appreciate that I thought I had fulfilled my responsibilities etc, etc, some of which I will quote below.

 

" whilst I appreciate that you thought you had fulfilled your responsibilities by correctly addressing the envelope, affixing a stamp, and placing in a royal mail post box, regrettably this is not the case. Instead, you have merely deemed to have 'sent' the letter as per section 7 of the interpretation act 1978. Furthermore you can only deem the notification 'sent' providing you can evidence that you put the correct address, inserted the relevant documents into the envelope, paid the correct postage and put the envelope into a post box. That action does not deem notification of change of keeper, and it does not constitute informing DVLA, which is what is required"

 

Then stating if unpaid further enforcement action will be taken as matters cannot remain unresolved and I remain liable for £80 LLP & dispute process now concluded.

 

Long story short, Vehicle owned by my Dad registered in my name, then sent completed V5 to transfer over to my Dad in spring 2013 by royal mail including a Sorn Form V890 completed by my Dad who was with me when it was all sealed, addressed, stamped & posted off to Swansea, my Dad had the car in his garage since Jan 2013 rebuilding the engine and I had earlier declared Sorn online.

 

DVLA sent me LLP notice Dec13 after old Sorn expired end October. Told DVLA I complied re interpretation act with my Dad as witness but they ignored. My Dad has finally got new V5 in his name showing correct date we originally told them after sending in a V62 & a new V890, but vehicle still showing as unlicensed on DVLA website. Informed DVLA several times I am a man of principle and will def defend in court with my Dad as witness.

 

So what chance have I got if it ends up in court! or should I just pay £80 and be done with it! to late to pay the lesser penalty of £40 now.

 

Opinions and advice greatly appreciated!

[Raykay]

It could be down to timing and declaring SORN too soon. If they dealt with the SORN declaration before dealing with the change of registered keeper, the SORN declaration will have been in the name of the keeper at that time. When they changed the registered keeper, it automatically cancels the SORN - hence their claim for the LLP.

[Crossword]

It could be down to timing and declaring SORN too soon. If they dealt with the SORN declaration before dealing with the change of registered keeper, the SORN declaration will have been in the name of the keeper at that time. When they changed the registered keeper, it automatically cancels the SORN - hence their claim for the LLP.

 

Hi Raykay, I Sorned online as soon as car was off the road at my Dad's 3 months before we sent V5 & V890...DVLA claim did not receive V5 or V890 and they have only just sent my Dad a new V5 with shows date of change of keeper as date we sent in original V5. My Dad had to send them a V62 to get new V5 in his name, he also sent a new Sorn V890 with date we changed keeper.

[unzippy]

Hmm, I wonder if I'm due one of these letters then? I sent my V991 off in November and have heard nothing...

 

 

 

" Instead, you have merely deemed to have 'sent' the letter as per section 7 of the interpretation act 1978."

 

Given that the DVLA provide a POSTAL address in which to "send" notification to, what else could you have done?

 

In quoting the interpretation act back at you they seemed to have missed out the small part that states:

 

"the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document"

 

Given that the DVLA do not require to send via recorded/special delivery, what more could you have done?

 

You cannot be liable for their failure to process properly or the RM losing it.

[citizenB]

Always send this type of thing by tracked mail - at the very least obtain a free proof of posting from the Post office.

[unzippy]

Maybe DVLA should state this info should be sent in that manner, but they don't. Maybe this method is far too profitable for them, rather than helping their users use the service efficiently..?

[Raykay]

 

Given that the DVLA provide a POSTAL address in which to "send" notification to, what else could you have done?

 

In quoting the interpretation act back at you they seemed to have missed out the small part that states:

 

"the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document"

 

Given that the DVLA do not require to send via recorded/special delivery, what more could you have done?

 

 

The answer that the DVLA sometimes come back with is that as the regulations do not authorise or require the document to be sent by post (the requirement is to 'deliver' the document), the Interpretation Act does not apply.

[Crossword]

When I sent the V991 dispute form I included a signed statement by my Dad confirming he witnessed I sent the V5 along with his V890 notifying Sorn from the same date as change of keeper, I also included a copy of the my Dad's new V5 showing the correct date of change of keeper & a screen shot of DVLA web site showing the same date as on new V5 as date of liability which is 8 months before the date of the LLP! So it appears DVLA are quite happy to back date the V5 but as yet they have to notify my Dad that the vehicle is Sorn as web show unlicensed!

 

I would appreciate some advice as to whether I would win if it eventually goes to court or just pay £80 now....Something I am loath to do as I know I done as required by DVLA and I suppose the only error my Dad and I have made is not being on the ball and chasing the DVLA up re change and new Sorn! The other point is if DVLA had sent me a reminder when Sorn/Tax was due as is usually the case I would have spotted the error for sure and got it sorted but I didn't receive one.

[Crossword]

The answer that the DVLA sometimes come back with is that as the regulations do not authorise or require the document to be sent by post (the requirement is to 'deliver' the document), the Interpretation Act does not apply.

 

Yes Raykay, I believe thay have used this very point and I think they have succeeded, but where is it explained how it should be delivered:???:

[Raykay]

That is the problem, the regulation states’ shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State – s.22, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing Regulations 2002. - But it doesn’t state how.

The instructions on the V5C are to send it to Swansea and they give a postal address, and then they lose it and hide behind the small print in the legislation!!

[Crossword]

So until the DOT/DVLA are forced to state exactly what method to deliver is acceptable, then they will continue to milk thier cash cow!! No wonder they do not want a Crown Court ruling....I wonder if members of the AA, RAC, etc, could get behind a petition to force DOT/DVLA to clearly state an acceptable method and then ammend s.22? Very unlikely I suspect!!

[Raykay]

They have even won on an appeal to Crown Court.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?345228-Failure-to-notify.-Another-case!&p=3973154#post3973154

[unzippy]

This Government website plainly says POST if you sell to a trader - but SEND if it isn't a trader.

 

https://www.gov.uk/notifying-dvla-if-you-sell-your-vehicle

 

How about a FOI to DVLA asking how many V5 they receive per year by post?

If not by post, what other methods do you receive V5?

How many V5s do recieve by these alternate methods?

[Raykay]

This Government website plainly says POST if you sell to a trader - but SEND if it isn't a trader.

 

https://www.gov.uk/notifying-dvla-if-you-sell-your-vehicle

 

 

The government website is just general advice. Although sending by post is the recognised way of notifying them, the DVLA hide behind the legislation, which doesn't mention 'post' or 'send', when it suits them.

[unzippy]

Well in the absence of anything official from DVLA, given that DVLA is a government agency and that is the government website, it's pretty clear advice imo.

[Raykay]

Well in the absence of anything official from DVLA, given that DVLA is a government agency and that is the government website, it's pretty clear advice imo.

 

 

Like most of the '.gov ' sites, it is only general advice and does not mention, or a link to, the relevant legislation where you can find the exact requirements.

[Crossword]

I have been searching the web for a legal definition of the term "Deliver" re the interpretations act 1978 but I cant find anything specific!!

[Raykay]

I have been searching the web for a legal definition of the term "Deliver" re the interpretations act 1978 but I cant find anything specific!!

 

 

One stumbling block is that the Interpretation Act only applies if the act concerned authorises or requires service by post, which unfortunately it doesn't.

[unzippy]

From a previous post

 

I have emailed DVLA asking them to define exactly what they consider is a proper way to deliver documents, ie by Royal Mail, hand delivered to Swansea or a local office and given receipt or diectly by hand to the Secretary of State, wonder if they will reply?

 

I am sure that a superior court would throw this out and then this would sort DVLA out, but its going to cost unless a Silk would do it Pro-Bono

 

 

Re my post (#98) I amazingly have had a reply to my questions from DVLA

 

quote: " I can confirm that it is acceptable to send documentation/applications via Royal Mail

 

It is at your discretion to use alternative forms of delivery

 

(signed)

 

L Hodgetts Customer Enquiry Group"

 

Don't know if this will help at all?

[Raykay]

That's the problem, they are quite prepared to accept documents sent by post. But then when they lose them, they claim that it wasn't delivered as required by the regulations.

[Crossword]

So it seems I have no choice other than to pay the £80 to DVLA for losing my V5! Is it known for the DVLA to not bother chasing a LLP after a dispute even though they said "if payment is not received, further enforcement action will be taken, matters can not remain unresolved" but they have not stated any time limit to pay it! Thoughts Please....Also at the end of the reply and after the name of the officer there is a box with:

 

1 As stated in section 7A of the vehicle excise and registration act 1994 (as amended) but I can not see any refference to it in the letter.

[unzippy]

I'd tell them to stuff it and to see them in court.

There is a FOI in progress:

 

Dear Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency,

 

Please can you tell me:

 

A. How many V5C registration certificates you receive per year by

post, for the last 3 years?

 

B. If not by post, please list other methods by which you receive

V5C registration certificates, for the last 3 years?

 

C. How many V5C registration certificates do you receive by these

alternate methods, for the last 3 years?

 

D. Finally, how do DVLA recommend V5C registration certificates are

sent to DVLA?

 

It will be interesting to see who they answer.