According to FSA- no need to produce the deed of assignment

[thinksmart]

Thanks for that Rich.... if that's the case, then the lovely lads at Moorcroft have stuffed up. Just waiting on the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) stuff at the moment....

 

Can I ask... was it a DEED of assignment or a NOTICE of assignment that they sent you? I'm just thinking that the Moorcroft I knew seemed to be debt collectors, i.e. agents for creditors, rather than actual creditors that BOUGHT debts themselves, and as such I would be surprised if they got hold of a Deed of assignment let alone a Notice of assignment. However if they have bought a debt that's a different matter. You still did well to get the actual deed out of them though! Did they blank out the sale price? Even the Notice of Assigmnent needs to show the amount of debt being sold to be legally enforcable as far as I understand.

[JonCris]

The only people who can 'notify' you that a debt has been assigned is the OC & if that hasn't happened & anyone issues proceedings & the debtor notifies the court of non receipt then the court will dismiss the claim

[PriorityOne]

Can I ask... was it a DEED of assignment or a NOTICE of assignment that they sent you? They haven't sent me anything, yet I'm supposed to receive something from either the OC or them. I'm just thinking that the Moorcroft I knew seemed to be debt collectors, i.e. agents for creditors, rather than actual creditors that BOUGHT debts themselves, they do both and as such I would be surprised if they got hold of a Deed of assignment let alone a Notice of assignment. I am trying to find this out now.... However if they have bought a debt that's a different matter. You still did well to get the actual deed out of them though! Did they blank out the sale price? Even the Notice of Assigmnent needs to show the amount of debt being sold to be legally enforcable as far as I understand. As said, I have not received anything.... and it's currently in the hands of the FOS, which will cost them for being so awkward.

 

[thinksmart]

The only people who can 'notify' you that a debt has been assigned is the OC & if that hasn't happened & anyone issues proceedings & the debtor notifies the court of non receipt then the court will dismiss the claim

 

Don't be so sure. I know of a case where more than a year after commencing proceedings the Claimant had still not produced a copy of a notice of assignment. When the Defendant got a hearing (after requesting a copy of a notice many times including by CCA 1974 and CPR Pt18 letters) the judge wasn't in the least bothered by the omission and simply gave another 14 days without even making an 'Unless Order'. Hopefully the lack of a notice of assignment will eventually prove decisive but it seems the Courts are quite happy to let cases grind on for month after month after month without them (and astonishingly that even goes for copies of credit agreements too!)

[thinksmart]

 

Sorry - I was confused there. You asked if a deed of assigment had to quote account numbers, and Rich replied that it did, and you replied again in turn saying that Moorcroft had stuffed up then. I mistook that to mean that they had sent you a purported deed without an account number on it.

 

I'd be intrigued to know if ANYONE has ever actually managed to get a copy of a DEED of assignment?

[JonCris]

Don't be so sure. I know of a case where more than a year after commencing proceedings the Claimant had still not produced a copy of a notice of assignment. When the Defendant got a hearing (after requesting a copy of a notice many times including by CCA 1974 and CPR Pt18 letters) the judge wasn't in the least bothered by the omission and simply gave another 14 days without even making an 'Unless Order'. Hopefully the lack of a notice of assignment will eventually prove decisive but it seems the Courts are quite happy to let cases grind on for month after month after month without them (and

 

 

Then the judge will have erred in law (not for the 1st time I'm afraid) & given grounds for appeal. It's also upto the litigant to produce evidence that it's a requirement. If the DJ does'nt know any better he isn't just going to take the litigants word for it

[thinksmart]

Then the judge will have erred in law (not for the 1st time I'm afraid) & given grounds for appeal. It's also upto the litigant to produce evidence that it's a requirement. If the DJ does'nt know any better he isn't just going to take the litigants word for it

 

Sorry JonCris I don't quite understand. What is it up to the Litigant to produce evidence of being a requirement?

[JonCris]

thinksmart Because if a litigant is relying on law to establish their argument then they must provide proof. Even the best judges can't be expected to know everything

[patrickq1]

dose a deed of assignment not get charged on property,as i am led to understand if this is the case then i have read they do not need the deed once registered on the property as it will then be under seal...this is what i think was on a thread last year looked for it but cannot find it...

[patrickq1]

does doh

[make them aktiv runners]

dose a deed of assignment not get charged on property,as i am led to understand if this is the case then i have read they do not need the deed once registered on the property as it will then be under seal...this is what i think was on a thread last year looked for it but cannot find it...

 

A deed of assignment is a written contract between the seller (eg bank) and buyer (usually DCA).

[hellhasnofury]

The only people who can 'notify' you that a debt has been assigned is the OC & if that hasn't happened & anyone issues proceedings & the debtor notifies the court of non receipt then the court will dismiss the claim

 

Hello,

 

Sorry to jump in but I am looking for info to hit back at a DCA. and my brain has become a bit fuddled reading around the threads.

 

In my case the account was seemly sold on to a dca, whilst in dispute and defaulting seriously on the ca request.

 

I have sar'd and ca'd the dca and asked for a copy of the deed of assignment, which I understand they do not have to supply it under the LPA section 136.

 

The only notice I received was from the dca in the fist letter stating:

 

Dear you

 

Your account no

 

Outstanding balance XXXXXXXXXX

 

We write to give you formal notification that on 23rd April your mbna acount was assigned to Equidet ltd who are now the legal owners of this debt

 

What you need to do next

 

Stop all ppayment to MBNA and pay us

 

etc etc etc

 

I would have thought that a Notice of Assignment would have to be under a legal certain format, like a default notice.

 

Now reading around the threads, I do understand that they do not have to let me have the Deed of assignment unless ordered by a judge. but surely if they want me to give them money, they must prove that I legally have to. I received nothing form the OC.

 

Any suggestions

[FANTASY CHARGES]

interesting

[JonCris]

The original creditor has to notify you of the debts assignment not the DCA.

 

To assign the debt whilst in dispute is a breach of the CCA & OFT guidelines.

 

Suggest write back point out debt in dispute & has been since whenever? & for them to pursue it is an offence & breach of the OFT guidelines

[FANTASY CHARGES]

WHAT TYpe of assignment have we got here

 

legal assignment

equitable assignment

an attempt to use law of property ?

[JonCris]

Debt are 'assigned' under the law of property

[FANTASY CHARGES]

thanks for the answer

 

IF WE ARE TO BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

" Assigning A Debt Or Benefit Of Contract?

 

It is important to first provide the debtor with a notice of the assignment!

 

Other points and issues that should be borne in mind:

 

· In principle, the benefit of a contract can be legally assigned without consent, provided there is no express prohibition on assignment or, for example, a requirement that consent is obtained.

 

· Where there is no restriction on assignment, the usual way of assigning the benefit of contractual rights is by statutory assignment. The assignment must be in writing, signed by the assignor, absolute (not purporting to be by way of charge only) and notice in writing must be

given to the other contracting party (section 136, Law of Property Act 1925).

 

· If a contract is not effectively assigned under statute, it may still be assigned under common law by an equitable assignment. An equitable assignment may exist where the requirements for a statutory assignment are not satisfied.

 

The main practical consequence of an equitable

assignment is that the assignee cannot bring an action in its own name against the third party, but must fall back on the rules governing equitable assignments and join the assignor as a party to the action.

 

It is, in any event, desirable for notice of an assignment to be given to the third party because the third party will otherwise be entitled to continue to make payments to the assignor.

 

Notice will give the assignee priority over any other assignee that has failed to give notice, provided there is no knowledge of such prior assignment.

 

· The burden of a contract cannot be assigned. It is therefore necessary to novate, rather than assign, certain contracts. Novation is, in effect, the rescission of one contract and the substitution of a new contract in which the same acts are to be performed but by different parties.

 

· On the sale of a business, the asset purchase agreement may specifically assign the benefit of the seller's contracts to the purchaser. Assuming that there is no restriction on assignment, this amounts to a statutory assignment, provided that notice is also given to the

other contracting party. If assignment is not possible, or only possible with consent, the asset purchase agreement may provide that such contracts are held on trust pending the obtaining of formal consent to assign or novate.

 

Trade debts often remain with the seller on the sale of a business because giving written notice of the assignment of the debt to each debtor can, depending on the number of debtors, be time consuming and expensive.

 

Where the trade debts remain with the seller, the seller may continue to

collect the debts, or else the buyer may collect the debts as agent for the seller.

 

As the burden of a contract may not be assigned, liability for breach of contract stays with the seller, who will therefore seek an indemnity from the buyer in relation to any breach occurring after completion."

 

-------------------------------------

 

IF THE ABOVE IS TRUE imagine FC has not ( relating to an "alleged" credit card account ) claimed his charges back from the bank {FC IS PRESUMING the charges are in fact a burden ?}

 

does the liability for refunding these charges remain with the credit card issuer

 

(a) when the bank alleges that FC has defaulted and uses the rather loose term "sold the account"

 

and

 

(b)

when say b-arclays sold off all (or nearly all) the monument accounts

or similarily H-SBC sold off all the m-arbles accounts recently.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

would you agree that "in all cases of assignment the assignee takes "subject to equities" . this means that he cannot be in a better position towards the debtor than was the person from whom he got the debt"

[JonCris]

Yes I would agree. The assignee cannot be in a better position than the OC otherwise this would result in OC's assigning debts purely for the purpose of maximising profit or indeed avoiding their own liability.

 

I think that on this basis a case can be made for claiming refunds from the assignee

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Yes I would agree. The assignee cannot be in a better position than the OC otherwise this would result in OC's assigning debts purely for the purpose of maximising profit or indeed avoiding their own liability.

 

I think that on this basis a case can be made for claiming refunds from the assignee

 

 

SO the secret might be {if the alleged debt is large }? to delay reclaiming those "credit card charges" [or even just reclaim a proportion]

 

to make sure the new owner cannot be in "a better position"

 

(assuming in reality you have paid very little charges over the years and most of these considerable charges have in fact been added after the creditor became in default [hence the term fantasy charges !!]

-------------

 

so this cannot be a complete legal assignment it can only be an equitable assignment and is not absolute ?

---------

If the liability of the reclaiming the charges went to the new owner ( we have agreed that we think it doesn't) .......

 

then he could have a "poisoned purchase" meaning his liabilities would be greater than what he paid for the "alleged debt"

[FANTASY CHARGES]

rory32 a while ago posted the following :-

 

If the notice includes an amount demanded that is incorrect it renders the notice legally invalid (e.g. unlawful charges or DCA admin/collection charges).

Even if the amount doesn't include charges but is misstated it is still invalid.

If the date is incorrect it is legally invalid (i.e. does not tie in with the deed of assignment - the execution of assignment should be the same as the date shown on the notice).

The case that supports this is W.F.Harrison & Co Ltd v Burke [1956] 1 WLR 419

 

see also

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-860862.html

 

see also

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-848075.html

[shane5408]

Hi FC,

 

can you post a link to where you got the info in post #42

 

 

kind regards,

shane

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Hi FC,

 

can you post a link to where you got the info in post #42

 

 

kind regards,

shane

WILL PM YOU IN A MINUTE

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

Fascinating thread

 

thanks

Peter

[Josie8]

Yes it is a good thread