Gothboy + NRAM

[GothBoy]

Right, I'm now in this thread. I'm currently on my mobile phone and can't type out the saga here but I will get back with my scenario.

 

BTW - The situation is so complicated I think it may be beyond us 'customer warriors' to sort out alone, but we shall see!

 

Gothboy

[jhill]

Right, I'm now in this thread. I'm currently on my mobile phone and can't type out the saga here but I will get back with my scenario.

 

BTW - The situation is so complicated I think it may be beyond us 'customer warriors' to sort out alone, but we shall see!

 

Gothboy

 

Great stuff! Look forward to hearing from you.

[GothBoy]

Out of interest, have you checked out your loan with the credit reference agencies? Mine shows an initial loan amount that bears no resemblance to the paperwork and is what initially sparked my interest.

 

I assume that the credit agencies get the info from NRAM based upon the legal paperwork. I don't know much about that so if anyone has more knowledge I'd love to hear it!

[jhill]

Right, I'm now in this thread. I'm currently on my mobile phone and can't type out the saga here but I will get back with my scenario.

 

BTW - The situation is so complicated I think it may be beyond us 'customer warriors' to sort out alone, but we shall see!

 

Gothboy

 

Hi GothBoy,

 

 

I posted this on the wrong thread late last night so just in case...

 

You should read the very useful thread "Tale of a Dodgy Default Notice".

 

There has been a case in the past involving a member from here Petebeds who we have tried to contact but to no avail. He was in a very similar boat and served a default notice.

 

whilst the regulated/unregulated argument was never tested NRAM withdrew their claim after he filed a counterclaim for unlawful termination due to a defective Default Notice.

 

I think what clinched it for him was the defective DN which had made the whole thing unenforceable.

 

Unfortunately It never went to trial, so there is no precedent and no case report to cite.

 

I think he's been paid off to keep quiet since he hasn't responded to requests to join this thread.

 

Jhill

[GothBoy]

Here I go, apologies for any spelling errors or grammatical faux pas in advance. I'm suffering with several disabilities that happen to make my thought processes rather 'unique'.

 

I got my NR Together Mortgage in June 2005, with an exchange and moving in date of 1st July. The 1st was a Friday and I know I took the afternoon off from work to get the keys et.c. I thought I'd took the next week off too but my dad seems to think he took me to the town I worked in on the Monday to deal with some NR stuff (where they were based). I can't confirm that as yet because I don't know where my diary is. Important note is that I first applied for a mortgage at 6.19% which was agreed in principle on 17 May 2005; when I actually came to sign up it was no longer available as the interest had reduced to 5.99%.

 

Anyway. My house was up for £125k, I got it for £112.5k. Looking at my first Mortgage Statement from August 2005 the secured advance was for £102,500 and the unsecured loan for £12k. I also have a "help with costs" benefit of £1,000 on my application dated 28 June 2005. The other sums match with the Mortgage Statement of August 2005. Now, the house is Edwardian and the valuation had money retention on it of £2k placed on it until various works were done. I never did these works as they weren’t needed (I knew far better than the surveyor!) so that was never claimed.

Looking through the paperwork it appears that the “Reason Why Form”, which was basically my acknowledgement that I understood what I was getting into was actually FAXED to me in the office and I signed and faxed back. None of the “have you explained this” style YES/NO has been ticked as obviously they weren’t discussed via a fax machine. All I know was I was told this had to be signed and returned straight away. This is dated 23 May 2005. Given the earlier paperwork I have refers to a 6.19% loan I think this faxed form was for the newer product at 5.99%. I still don’t know if the only difference was in the interest rates! It's probably best if I go through the documents I have to hand.

 

 

KFI and Mortgage in Principle documents dated 23 May 2005:

Here the Secured Loan was for £105,195 including fees and an Unsecured Loan of £12,500. Underneath it states I could apply for a maximum unsecured loan of £30k. Next page explains the Secured loan is made up of £104,500 plus £695 fees. States I wish to borrow £12,500 unsecured. Next page gives details of repayment, interest and monthly payment for the SECURED LOAN ONLY. Next page discusses what happens if rates rise and also outlines the fees. Next page was the extortionate monthly insurances. Next page Early Repayment Charges and details of overpayments. Next page is lots of info about mortgage features including little section on unsecured borrowing of UP TO £12,500, monthly payments and that it is REGULATED NOT BY THE FSA BUT UNDER CCA 1974. Next page is info continued stating loan amount subject to maximum LTV of 30% or £30k, whichever is lower. Certificate of Mortgage in Principle that goes with this has secured of £104,500 and unsecured credit facility of up to £30k, signed by NR advisor.

 

 

Offer of Loan Pack 02 June 2005:

Offer of £104,500 secured and a total unsecured amount of £30k. States “The total monthly payment, including the initial unsecured amount of £12,000 that you have requested is £770.97. This is made up of the following: Mortgage payment, Initial unsecured loan payment: 77.25, Buildings insurance.” Goes on to state included documents with the letter including CCA UNSECURED PRE CONTRACT INFORMATION.

Ten pages included in the Offer of Loan. In the Mortgage Requirements it gives secured of £104,500. Then states “You also wish to borrow £30k as an unsecured loan”. Page 3 is the mortgage requirements, including the £2k retention. Does state that I had chosen to take out their PPI. I never did and had other agreements in place. Don’t know how this slipped by me, other than in the flood of paperwork. Page 4 gives info on secured loan amount and payment per month. Page 5 discusses changes in interest rates and also the fees on the mortgage. Page 6 is about house insurance requirements. Page 7 is ERC and overpayments. Page 8 is additional features including unsecured borrowing of £30k that is available with the mortgage, gives APR of 6.7% and monthly payment of £193.11. States that this feature is not regulated by the FSA but regulated under the CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974. Continues onto page 9 giving the LTV or 30% info as in the Mortgage in Principle. Information on mortgage requirements. Page 10 is about complaints and the Distance Marketing Directive.

 

Pre- Contract Information dated 02 June 2005 10:27:06:

KFI states loan for a value of £30k for 300 months commencing on the date of that agreement. Apr is 6.7%. “Other Financial Information” box gives total charge for credit of £31,123.69 and that this is an ESTIMATED FIGURE. Goes on to explain interest set at 5.99% until 01/08/2010 then revert to SVR. Penalty of 5% above SVR for leaving NR. Second page gives early repayment examples and states that it is under the CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974.

 

Fixed Sum Loan Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 dated 02 June 2005 10:27:23 (Not from Offer of Loan pack!):

Appears to be the unsecured loan agreement. KFI box states for a value of £30k commencing on that day and lasting 300 months. APR given as 6.7%. Total charge for credit of £31,123.69 and that this is an ESTIMATED FIGURE. In the “Other Financial Information” box gives total charge for credit, interest rate of 5.99% until 01/08/2010 then SVR (at old rate). Explains 5% additional interest on top of SVR if mortgage moves from NR. Second Key Information box gives early repayment amounts and all the info as to how this is regulated by CCA 1974. Three pages of gobbledegook follow. NOWHERE TO SIGN BY ANYBODY.

 

Solicitors Letter 06 June 2005:

There is a letter in my file from my solicitors dated 06 June 2005 stating that NR have agreed to offer me a net advance of £134,500. Where that figure comes from I don’t know as I’d agreed to £117k as per my Mortgage in Principle.

 

Mortgage Documentation (Loan Completion) 28 June 2005:

A statement confirming my solicitor now has the money for the exchange. States a sum of £115,500 consisting of £102,500 secured. £12,000 initial unsecured amount requested. Rate of interest 5.99%. Remaining drawdown is £18,000. £1000 Help with Costs Benefit. Goes on to give information of the combined monthly payment but does not break this down anywhere, it also included the house insurance policy so no idea of actual separate amounts. Lots of further small print gobbledegook on the page.

 

Solicitors Letter 01 July 2005:

Letter with associated Purchase Completion Statement. Contains all the costs associated with the legal side plus this: Purchase Price = £112,500 LESS Mortgage Advance received from NR £115,500 (including cash back of £1000 and retention of £2000). Unsecured Loan not mentioned as separate agreement but definitely of £12,000 it also suggests the retention was never retained but this doesn’t agree with document of 28th June.

 

I wrote to NRAM this July basically stating that I have no money so I’m going to ensure that I keep up with the secured mortgage and try my best with the unsecured loan. Also asked for a copy of the original loan agreement as I’m totally confused. I got a letter back thanking me and stating it would be kept on file and that a copy of the loan agreement would come along soon.

 

Copy of Fixed-sum Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 dated 04 July 2005:

Looks similar to the one dated 02 June 2005 but obviously dated more than a month later when I’m sure I was taking time off to sort the house out as I only got it on the Friday and this was the Monday. Still need to check this. States it is a Second Copy on it along with a red and blue COPY stamp added afterwards. This time total charge for credit is £31,195.00 and again is ESTIMATED. No monthly repayment amount is detailed other than it is an equal, or near equal, amount as calculated by them. There is a place to sign on this but it is to CANCEL the agreement only. States that regulated under CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974. Pages 3-5 gobbledegook.

 

I wrote to NRAM asking for a signed copy as their information didn’t agree with what my papers said, and what the Credit Reference Agencies said (unsecured loan for £12k). This was on 6th August 2013. I sent a reminder and SAR request on 21 August 2013.

 

 

Default Notice Served Under Section 87(1) of the CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 24 July 2013

Served with a breach for failure to make monthly repayments on the Regulated Drawdown Loan in May and June. Given opportunity to remedy the breach by 16th August by paying for May, June and July, which was done on 14th August (mother paid by credit card in panic). This is identical the Default Notices I’ve had for credit cards. Served with OTF966.

 

As I’ve been typing this I’ve had two more letters arrive from NRAM. One was the requested signed Credit Agreement and the other a Default Notice.

 

Copy of Fixed-sum Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 dated 02 June 2005 10:27:14

Identical to the other agreement of the same date except this is marked as ORIGINAL and has a place to sign. Appears to have been signed by me on 22 June 2005 but there is no signature on behalf of Northern Rock, it is blank.

 

Certificate of Title dated 23 June 2005

Was sent this with the above today. It has a section about the Unsecured loan entitled “Unsecured Loan Certificate” where my solicitor signed to confirm he had advised me on the unsecured loan and that I signed it in his presence. Again, the amount was for £12k. This is the first time I knew of the existence of this document and I don’t recall ever discussing the loan with the solicitor, but if I did then both of us were under the impression it was a CCA 1973 regulated loan!

 

Default Notice Served Under Section 87(1) of the CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 21 August 2013

Served with a breach for failure to make monthly repayments on the Regulated Drawdown Loan for May, June and July. Remedy by paying for 4 months by 13 September. Yep, including the three months already paid for. Same as previous Default Notice and served with OFT966.

 

So, as you can see, a right pickle! Especially given that the amounts I owe after 8 years paying are almost the same as they allege I borrowed!

 

I don’t see how anyone can say the unsecured loan was NOT under CCA 1974 when every bit of information about it, NOT JUST THE FORMS say it was.

 

 

I need to lie down now.

[GothBoy]

Oh, and just FYI. I've never been contacted by NRAM about this loan or a previous one I held until 2009 regarding the statement errors. Not a thing. Not even a letter to say it doesn't affect me.

[IainHL]

Solicitors Letter 06 June 2005:

There is a letter in my file from my solicitors dated 06 June 2005 stating that NR have agreed to offer me a net advance of £134,500. Where that figure comes from I don’t know as I’d agreed to £117k as per my Mortgage in Principle.

Well that would be your secured mortgage of £104,500, plus the unsecured loan of up to £30,000 (even though you had only asked for an initial drawdown of £12,000 on it).

 

Oh, and just FYI. I've never been contacted by NRAM about this loan or a previous one I held until 2009 regarding the statement errors. Not a thing. Not even a letter to say it doesn't affect me.

As this is a Together Mortgage you should be due redress because of their CCA2006 failures. I would suggest you write a formal complaint to them on this. It seems possible that since this has been recorded as an unsecured loan of potentially £30k (even though only £12k was drawn down) that NRAM have excluded it from redress.

 

Finally I don't quite understand what you are referring to regarding a previous loan you held until 2009? Was this a seperate unsecured loan?

[citizenB]

Is there any chance you can scan in the Default Notices please you will need to convert them to pdf format and the instructions for this is below.

 

Dx100 – Instructions on uploading pdfs

Scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all personal info including barcodes etc. using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

Go to one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new message box here

hit go advanced below the message box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB: you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

Then hit reply button

[GothBoy]

Well that would be your secured mortgage of £104,500, plus the unsecured loan of up to £30,000 (even though you had only asked for an initial drawdown of £12,000 on it).

 

 

As this is a Together Mortgage you should be due redress because of their CCA2006 failures. I would suggest you write a formal complaint to them on this. It seems possible that since this has been recorded as an unsecured loan of potentially £30k (even though only £12k was drawn down) that NRAM have excluded it from redress.

 

Finally I don't quite understand what you are referring to regarding a previous loan you held until 2009? Was this a seperate unsecured loan?

 

I did have a second personal loan and I assume that if one was liable for redress then the other may be too. What gets me is that I never asked for the £30k bit, only 'up to'. It's like Barclaycard giving you a £20k limit and then without asking upping it to £30k and thus making your Credit Card fall outside of the CCA. I think they were either very sneaky or very stupid, I can't make up my mind!

[GothBoy]

Is there any chance you can scan in the Default Notices please you will need to convert them to pdf format and the instructions for this is below.

 

I can do that tomorrow, hopefully. It means turning on the 'Big Beast' (my huge office printer that was one of those 'too good to pass' bargains).

[citizenB]

I can do that tomorrow, hopefully. It means turning on the 'Big Beast' (my huge office printer that was one of those 'too good to pass' bargains).

 

 

no hurry.. any time over the weekend

[GothBoy]

Well I knew I wouldn't be able to settle so I cancelled playing Civ5 to get this done. I love the new Redaction Tool in Adobe Acrobat . I haven't bothered password protecting them or anything as the Sanitisation Tool redacts and then recreates the page as an image; impossible to recover the blanked bits.

 

Not thrilled by how the files appear in the post but I'm just learning!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46047[/ATTACH]

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46048[/ATTACH]

Edited August 25, 2013 by citizenB

[GothBoy]

Just a thought regarding the CCA for the unsecured loan. Given that it's not signed by NR is it unenforceable without a court order? A court order is likely to be given in my opinion but does it mean that all payments so far have been ex gratia and therefore refundable?

 

Just a strain of thought...

[IainHL]

I did have a second personal loan and I assume that if one was liable for redress then the other may be too. What gets me is that I never asked for the £30k bit, only 'up to'. It's like Barclaycard giving you a £20k limit and then without asking upping it to £30k and thus making your Credit Card fall outside of the CCA. I think they were either very sneaky or very stupid, I can't make up my mind!

I would guess your second personal loan had a 16 digit account number? They managed to get the documentation correct on those (it was a different part of NR to the mortgage section), therefore these loans do not feature in the redress situation.

 

As for your final sentence I think the quote "never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence" covers it!

 

Well I knew I wouldn't be able to settle so I cancelled playing Civ5 to get this done. I love the new Redaction Tool in Adobe Acrobat. I haven't bothered password protecting them or anything as the Sanitisation Tool redacts and then recreates the page as an image; impossible to recover the blanked bits.

I would also have redacted their reference and the little row of numbers above the address box.

[citizenB]

Am I reading this correctly.

 

Amount of loan - £30,000.00

Charge for credit - £31,123.69

 

???????

[GothBoy]

Am I reading this correctly.

 

Amount of loan - £30,000.00

Charge for credit - £31,123.69

 

???????

 

Yep, that's what it says. Although in all honesty I have no idea how to validate that. Also, it's only an estimated charge as it's fixed-sum and not fixed-interest? No idea.

[citizenB]

Yep, that's what it says. Although in all honesty I have no idea how to validate that. Also, it's only an estimated charge as it's fixed-sum and not fixed-interest? No idea.

 

I will try and find someone who can help on that ..

[dx100uk]

you could do with redacting in MSpaint before you PDF them.

 

anyone with adobe pro can removed redactions done in adobe PDF.

 

you've also let barcodes and ref numbers in there too

 

dx

[GothBoy]

Hi dx,

 

They're secure as the Acrobat Pro sanitising tool actually black boxes, saves as an image file and then reimports so there'sno wway of getting the original info as it no longer exists in the file. Anyway, can you please delete those two attachments for me and I'll sort out the bar code issues.

 

Thanks

[GothBoy]

Sheesh..!!

 

Hence why I wanted to borrow 12k! One of the reasons I've done a SAR is because I don't know where the other seeming 28k of borrowing came from. I know that a big project borrowed 5k or there abouts but that still doesn't amount to 30k!

[GothBoy]

I just got my SAR through from NRAM, of course it was only the mortgage and not the other loan I asked for, nevermind. Anyway, it appears that up until the end of 2012 all the statements looked the same so in theory they won't have been compliant with the CCA changes that required the refunds. Am I correct?

 

If so, do you agree I could argue for the refund that others got? After all, my loan is under the CCA 74, as all the documenttation tells me.

[dx100uk]

own thread created

 

dx

[dx100uk]

please start a new thread of your own.

 

dx