estoppel

[tiger7861]

there is a case for prop estoppel and she has claimed she has suffered detriment but reading law of waiver chapter 11 same eg is there as in my case living there rent free any detriment she has suffered has already been payed back by rent free accomm

[tiger7861]

can any one please tell me what this means in simple english

"

So where expectations are wholly

disproportionate to the detriment, the

court does not fulfil the claimant’s expectations in order to satisfy

the equity.

[The Mould]

The Claimant (your ex daughter-in-law) expects that because you promised she and son could live in the house while their names were on the housing register, that because you promised this and she then went on to carry out the improvements, the Court does not recognise her propriety estoppel claim, because the improvements undertaken by her and your son on the house did not ever form a part of your said promise, which you fulfilled, therefore, no detriment suffered by her.

 

She is clearly alleging that all these improvements have been to her detriment, because, she claims that you gave a promise that you would gift the house to her or at least gift a share in the house if she undertook said improvements; however, to my mind, her contentions do not make any sense, because you allowed her to live in house rent and mortgage free and her name was continually placed on housing register which substantiates your given and fulfilled promised.

 

 

As stated by Steampowered, if she (and her alleged witness) issues a claim against you, then you must Defend and refute such.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[raydetinu]

We will have to wait now and see what documents/statements she produces with her claim.

Not much point in commenting further until court documents are filed.

[The Mould]

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2009/18.html

The above is the leading case on propriety estoppel.

Kind regards

The Mould

[raydetinu]

A bit of digging to find that, well done.

However it proves that nothing is straight forward and even if you win a case, it will be costly and can be reversed and then challenged again.

[tiger7861]

A bit of digging to find that, well done.

However it proves that nothing is straight forward and even if you win a case, it will be costly and can be reversed and then challenged again.

Sorry dnt understand

[tiger7861]

A bit of digging to find that, well done.

However it proves that nothing is straight forward and even if you win a case, it will be costly and can be reversed and then challenged again.

can this happ in my case?

[tiger7861]

Appeals are only allowed if there is a chance of winning?

[tiger7861]

I think the sentence is clear, but I'm not sure if its still good law. To be honest I haven't really looked at proprietary estoppel since university, several years ago now, but my understanding is that there is a split in the case law between cases where remedy was awarded according to detriment (i.e. spending on the house) and cases where remedy was awarded according to the promise (i.e. the alleged promise to gift the whole house). This issue is discussed in the .PDF posted by andyorch which is very helpful.

 

from what i have told you so far any detriment she has suffered has been covered by her living in the house for over 10 years free and on top of that there names where on the housing register in 2012 they where on top of the register.so where is the detriment? if you have an email add i can email you some docs?

[steampowered]

from what i have told you so far any detriment she has suffered has been covered by her living in the house for over 10 years free and on top of that there names where on the housing register in 2012 they where on top of the register.so where is the detriment? if you have an email add i can email you some docs?

 

If there is a detriment I think there is still a detriment - I'm not sure the detriment would get erased by the fact they were living there rent-free. For me the main issue is proving whether or not the promise was made.

 

Any docs best to post them on here with personal details removed, but I'm not sure what they would add.

[tiger7861]

If there is a detriment I think there is still a detriment - I'm not sure the detriment would get erased by the fact they were living there rent-free. For me the main issue is proving whether or not the promise was made.

 

Any docs best to post them on here with personal details removed, but I'm not sure what they would add.

please read http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_aCCpfNIFIoC&pg=PA208&dq=proprietary+estoppel+minimum+relief&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q=proprietary%20estoppel%20minimum%20relief&f=true

page 244 11.80

[tiger7861]

source law of waiver

benefits taken from c from p may be taken into account when assessing whether c has suffered detriment c must show she has suffered net detriment after such benefits are taken into account.

 

The balance of benefit and detriment may fluctuate over time, such that it may be unconscionable for p to seek to resile from his assurances at some points in time not others.

 

Take an eg where p encourages c to make certain improvements to p's property

 

in the belief she will be permitted to remain there.

 

It may be unconscionable for p to resile from the assurance immediately after c carries out the work. c would suffer a detriment and would have gained little benefit.

 

However if after c carries out the works she lives in the property for 18 years without paying rent, it may not be unconscionable for p to than assert his ownership rights.

[The Mould]

She needs to prove that you gifted house to her and your son, if she and you son carried out all cosmetic works thereon.

 

You said that you promised she and son could live in property rent and mortgage free as long as they kept their names on housing register - YES?

 

Then if she carried out any improvements thereon, she and her witness will be required to prove to Court that you agreed to such and thjsat you promised her gift of house or gift of the costs of such improvements undertaken by her thereon.

 

Is this the case or not? If not, the you will be required to contend against the same and present your Defence against the same in your Defence which ought to cross-reference any claim in this matter.

 

 

I am going to ask you a direct question, please do not be offended by it. Did you ever make a promise to daughter-in-law that the house is hers if she undertakes the improvements required thereon.

 

Please be honest and do not take offence with this line of questioning., because I \and I am sure others are trying to help you with the law on this matter.

 

Don't hide any matters of fact from us, if you do, then we cannot help you; be honest with us.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[tiger7861]

She needs to prove that you gifted house to her and your son, if she and you son carried out all cosmetic works thereon.

 

You said that you promised she and son could live in property rent and mortgage free as long as they kept their names on housing register - YES?

 

Then if she carried out any improvements thereon, she and her witness will be required to prove to Court that you agreed to such and thjsat you promised her gift of house or gift of the costs of such improvements undertaken by her thereon.

 

Is this the case or not? If not, the you will be required to contend against the same and present your Defence against the same in your Defence which ought to cross-reference any claim in this matter.

 

 

I am going to ask you a direct question, please do not be offended by it. Did you ever make a promise to daughter-in-law that the house is hers if she undertakes the improvements required thereon.

 

Please be honest and do not take offence with this line of questioning., because I \and I am sure others are trying to help you with the law on this matter.

 

Don't hide any matters of fact from us, if you do, then we cannot help you; be honest with us.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

no never she is claiming when she got married i gifted her the house at that time the house belonged to my wife only after a few years my name was added to the deeds but in her defense she named me as saying i was the one that promised her!

Edited October 16, 2013 by tiger7861

[The Mould]

Then, as has been advised, you must refute these contentionsalleged by daughter –in -law .

You must assert that you gave no such promise as alleged byher. Thsat all and any improvements wereundertaken by her without your consent and not contract concluded between youtwo pasrties to the same, your son can establish this fact on your behalf.

The promise that you did give was; that she and son couldlive in the property rent and mortgage free as long as they maintained theirnames on the local housing authority lists until they were re-housed by thesame.

At no point did you ever gift the property to exdaughter-in-law and at no point did you ever enter into an agreement with her,whereby you agreed to gift the property to her or reimburse her for any sumsspent thereon; the daughter-in law is therefore, put to the strictest proof onher claim.

Your son will act as witness in this case to substantiatethe facts and matters in support of your Defence as to the claimed commenced byhis ex-wife.

OK, wait for claim and Particulars thereof to be served onyou, then report back here immediately.

Kind regards

The Mould

[tiger7861]

Then, as has been advised, you must refute these contentionsalleged by daughter –in -law .

You must assert that you gave no such promise as alleged byher. Thsat all and any improvements wereundertaken by her without your consent and not contract concluded between youtwo pasrties to the same, your son can establish this fact on your behalf.

The promise that you did give was; that she and son couldlive in the property rent and mortgage free as long as they maintained theirnames on the local housing authority lists until they were re-housed by thesame.

At no point did you ever gift the property to exdaughter-in-law and at no point did you ever enter into an agreement with her,whereby you agreed to gift the property to her or reimburse her for any sumsspent thereon; the daughter-in law is therefore, put to the strictest proof onher claim.

Your son will act as witness in this case to substantiatethe facts and matters in support of your Defence as to the claimed commenced byhis ex-wife.

OK, wait for claim and Particulars thereof to be served onyou, then report back here immediately.

Kind regards

The Mould

When will i get partic of claim

[The Mould]

When will i get partic of claim

 

I ex daughter-in-law is pursuing you in this matter, then you will receive a sealed claimed form (N1) from the Court. If and when this happens, post full details thereof - minus all personal details and we will help you to respond to the same based upon the facts posted here by you thus far.

 

Godzilla

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[tiger7861]

I ex daughter-in-law is pursuing you in this matter, then you will receive a sealed claimed form (N1) from the Court. If and when this happens, post full details thereof - minus all personal details and we will help you to respond to the same based upon the facts posted here by you thus far.

 

Godzilla

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

 

I think i said earlier srry if i didnt i sent her eviction notice she was given a date.in court thats when she raised her defence of estoppel

[raydetinu]

You need to apply to the court for her eviction and let her defend it.

I presume the question of estoppel has been raised by her solicitor prior to any court action.

You can of course force the issue ( if so inclined ) by taking over ( repossess ) the house when not occupied and change the locks, as you own it. She cannot prevent you entering the house.

Forcing her to take you to court.

Police should not get involved as a civil matter unless its for a breach of the peace.

[The Mould]

The ex daughter –in – law is there for pleading with a case that she can neither establishnor advance at trial; in these circumstances her case is denied and she is putto strictest proof thereon in respect of her allegations in this matter, failingwhich, her claim must be struck out in accordance with the overriding objectives.

[steampowered]

please read http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_aCCpfNIFIoC&pg=PA208&dq=proprietary+estoppel+minimum+relief&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q=proprietary%20estoppel%20minimum%20relief&f=true

page 244 11.80

I can't view it, I think it only allows you to see certain random pages. There is another section which says the court will usually grant the minimum relief necessary to deal with the detriment, although this can sometimes require the Defendant to make good the promise. There is a contradiction here - the problem with estoppel cases is that it is sometimes quite hard to predict what the court would do IF an estoppel is proven (which sounds unlikely here).

[tiger7861]

Here u go steampower below is from book

 

benefits taken from c from p may be taken into account when assessing whether c has suffered detriment c must show she has suffered net detriment after such benefits are taken into account.

The balance of benefit and detriment may fluctuate over time, such that it may be unconscionable for p to seek to resile from his assurances at some points in time not others.

Take an eg where p encourages c to make certain improvements to p's property

in the belief she will be permitted to remain there.

It may be unconscionable for p to resile from the assurance immediately after c carries out the work. c would suffer a detriment and would have gained little benefit.

However if after c carries out the works she lives in the property for 18 years without paying rent, it may not be unconscionable for p to than assert his ownership rights. *

 

--

[The Mould]

Did you ever give a promise to son and/or daughter-in-law, that if they carried out the improvements, then you would gift them the house? Yes or No?

 

Did you ever give a promise that you would gift a share in the house if they/she - the ex daughter-in-law carried out these cosmetic improvements? Yes or No?

 

Did you ever charge son or ex daughter-in-law with demands for payments while they lived at the house? Yes or No?

 

Be honest with us, tell us the full facts, if you hide something from us, then our advice, help and support given to you may be wrong.

 

Please do not be offended by my post, I believe you, you speak with conviction. In my opinion, I do not accept that there is a case for propriety estoppel made out by your ex daughter-in-law.

 

Living rent and mortgage free for ten years in a property owned by you, with your consent, and undertaking improvements of her own accord thereon without your consent while being registered on the housing list, does not present any grounds for propriety estoppel. In these circumstances reported here by you, no detriment and no prejudice has been suffered by ex daughter-in-law.

 

If she issues a claim against you, then you must present the facts of this matter and your son is a witness and he must also make a statement to support your side of this matter.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[tiger7861]

Did you ever give a promise to son and/or daughter-in-law, that if they carried out the improvements, then you would gift them the house? Yes or No?

 

Did you ever give a promise that you would gift a share in the house if they/she - the ex daughter-in-law carried out these cosmetic improvements? Yes or No?

 

Did you ever charge son or ex daughter-in-law with demands for payments while they lived at the house? Yes or No?

 

Be honest with us, tell us the full facts, if you hide something from us, then our advice, help and support given to you may be wrong.

 

Please do not be offended by my post, I believe you, you speak with conviction. In my opinion, I do not accept that there is a case for propriety estoppel made out by your ex daughter-in-law.

 

Living rent and mortgage free for ten years in a property owned by you, with your consent, and undertaking improvements of her own accord thereon without your consent while being registered on the housing list, does not present any grounds for propriety estoppel. In these circumstances reported here by you, no detriment and no prejudice has been suffered by ex daughter-in-law.

 

If she issues a claim against you, then you must present the facts of this matter and your son is a witness and he must also make a statement to support your side of this matter.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

No to all question