20,000 credited to account by mistake

[rogerebaker]

My daugter has just had 20 grand credited to her account by mistake. She put in a cheque for 200 pound last week and they have obviously typed it in wrong.

 

any sensible ideas.

 

Telling them would obviously be the the right thing to do but there must be an opportunity to make a bit of mischief before she gives it back

[rogerebaker]

I dont think its come from anywhere, Its a typing error when they input the amount on the computer. They clearly put the point in the wrong place.

 

I assume therefor that no one is actually 20 grand short unless of course your the bank manager who is scratching his head wandering where it has gone

[PhantomReclaimer]

My daugter has just had 20 grand credited to her account by mistake. She put in a cheque for 200 pound last week and they have obviously typed it in wrong.

 

any sensible ideas.

 

Telling them would obviously be the the right thing to do but there must be an opportunity to make a bit of mischief before she gives it back

 

Retaining a wrongful credit is an offence;

 

[24A Dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit]

 

 

[(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect of which he has any right or interest;

(b) he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and

© he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled.

 

 

 

(2) References to a credit are to a credit of an amount of money.

 

(3) A credit to an account is wrongful if it is the credit side of a money transfer obtained contrary to section 15A of this Act.

 

(4) A credit to an account is also wrongful to the extent that it derives from—

(a) theft;

(b) an offence under section 15A of this Act;

© blackmail; or

(d) stolen goods.

 

(5) In determining whether a credit to an account is wrongful, it is immaterial (in particular) whether the account is overdrawn before or after the credit is made.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.(7) Subsection (8) below applies for purposes of provisions of this Act relating to stolen goods (including subsection (4) above).

(8) References to stolen goods include money which is dishonestly withdrawn from an account to which a wrongful credit has been made, but only to the extent that the money derives from the credit.

(9) In this section “account” and “money” shall be construed in accordance with section 15B of this Act.]

 

P

[rogerebaker]

Retaining a wrongful credit is an offence;

 

[24A Dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit]

 

 

[(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect of which he has any right or interest;

(b) he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and

© he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled.

 

 

 

(2) References to a credit are to a credit of an amount of money.

 

(3) A credit to an account is wrongful if it is the credit side of a money transfer obtained contrary to section 15A of this Act.

 

(4) A credit to an account is also wrongful to the extent that it derives from—

(a) theft;

(b) an offence under section 15A of this Act;

© blackmail; or

(d) stolen goods.

 

(5) In determining whether a credit to an account is wrongful, it is immaterial (in particular) whether the account is overdrawn before or after the credit is made.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.(7) Subsection (8) below applies for purposes of provisions of this Act relating to stolen goods (including subsection (4) above).

(8) References to stolen goods include money which is dishonestly withdrawn from an account to which a wrongful credit has been made, but only to the extent that the money derives from the credit.

(9) In this section “account” and “money” shall be construed in accordance with section 15B of this Act.]

 

P

 

Dont get me wrong she has no intention of keeping the money but the offence above is only relevant if the money is obtained dishonestly which in her case it hasnt

see below

 

(Copied from some law book on the internet)

 

It is made clear that a credit is only "wrongful" if it derives from a dishonest source i.e. stolen goods, blackmail, theft or the new section 15A offence. In the latter case, a credit side of a money transfer is regarded as "wrongful" if that transfer is obtained in circumstances amounting to the new offence under section 15A. So someone who, through a bank error, is credited an amount to an account, realises the mistake and does nothing about it will not be guilty of the new section 24A offence. Such conduct would not amount to an offence under the Theft legislation unless the taking of advantage of another's mistake in these circumstances can amount to theft contrary to section 1 of the 1968 Act. Clearly, if D knowingly pockets excess change in a supermarket handed to her because of an assistant's error, then that can amount to theft from the supermarket due to section 5(4) of the 1968 Act; but here the property, the excess change, "belongs to" the supermarket. In the case of the credit transfer, however, Preddy makes it clear that the property does not "belong to" the person, V, from whose account the amount is debited but instead belongs in essence to the bank who operates that account; so it would seem that there is no section 1 theft offence as against V, the customer.

[rogerebaker]

So in light of the above what could you do with 20 grand for a short space of time that has no risk with the biggest potential return.

 

Premium bonds me thinks !!

[Movingon]

There's another thread on this somewhere. Someone's boss is going ape-sh!t - taking the recipient to court etc. It turns out that if the amount was credited "by mistake" then the onus is on the person making the mistake to do the chasing; and they don't necessarily have an automatic right to get it all back!!

 

If the recipient genuinely thought the money was theirs, or wasn't aware of it, and spent it, they might get away with it.

 

However in this case I would suggest it would be pretty hard to make that defence stick!

[rogerebaker]

Youre right of course and she will phone the bank tomorrow.

 

Not before she has printed out a copy of her statement and framed it.

[kano24]

I beg to differ on your reasoning.

 

Section 24A of the Theft Act 1968 was inserted by section 2 of the Theft (Amendment) Act 1996 which became effective from 18 December 1996. This closed the loop hole that once existed in regards to dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit.

 

The correct wording of the current law is "retaining a wrongful credit"

 

There are 3 points to prove. Namely:

 

1 - A wrongful credit has been made to an account (it clearly has)

2 - The credit is known or believed to be wrongful (it is)

3 - dishonestly fail to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that credit is cancelled.

 

by failing to notify the bank then all 3 points would have been covered and the full offence committed.

 

:!: Another point to not in the amended act is that any money dishonestly withdrawn from an account to which a wrongful credit had been made may be regarded as stolen goods. Conduct involving the dishonest handling of cash withdrawn from the account credited would be dealt with as "handling stolen Goods" - this would clearly be the case if funds were withdrawn and invested into premium bonds etc. :!:

[Kidson]

Honesty it is said to be the best policy!

 

Let's see if your bank conform and act in accordance with that motto

 

Perhaps a goodwill payment of £50.00?

[rogerebaker]

I beg to differ on your reasoning.

 

Section 24A of the Theft Act 1968 was inserted by section 2 of the Theft (Amendment) Act 1996 which became effective from 18 December 1996. This closed the loop hole that once existed in regards to dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit.

 

The correct wording of the current law is "retaining a wrongful credit"

 

There are 3 points to prove. Namely:

 

1 - A wrongful credit has been made to an account (it clearly has)

2 - The credit is known or believed to be wrongful (it is)

3 - dishonestly fail to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that credit is cancelled.

 

by failing to notify the bank then all 3 points would have been covered and the full offence committed.

 

:!: Another point to not in the amended act is that any money dishonestly withdrawn from an account to which a wrongful credit had been made may be regarded as stolen goods. Conduct involving the dishonest handling of cash withdrawn from the account credited would be dealt with as "handling stolen Goods" - this would clearly be the case if funds were withdrawn and invested into premium bonds etc. :!:

 

Kano

 

Im not an expert by any means but if you have a look at the extract above from the internet it clearly states that in my daughters circumstances no offence under the theft act is committed. It revolves around the wrongfull part of the Act.

 

It lists what constitutes wrongfull and includes S15, S1 of the theft Act and a few more.

 

S24 was put on the statutues to close a loophole around transfering money electronically which had been obtained dishonestly ie mortgage fraud etc.

 

TBH she is going to call the bank tomorrow. She worried when she gets a Parking ticket she would never cope waiting for a knock on the door with some bank manager asking for 30 grand.

[rogerebaker]

Talk about a good day

 

Just had barclays on the phone who have settled her claim for 1300 pound before the court case on wednesday

 

31300 in credit at the bank

 

very good day

[rogerebaker]

1300 in credit

 

Nationwide just realised their mistake and grabbed it back.

[e28bigalbexley]

Could she have donated to a charity like CAG

[rogerebaker]

there you go then lol - problem solved and

 

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!

 

did your daughter get a print out of the account before they took it back ?

 

Yes she did

[lookinforinfo]

I am not sure how banks operate these days when so much of their work is

computerised. I assume that it was a credit of £200.00 coming through the clearing. If credits are still individually posted to each account in the branch on

a daily basis, then whoever saw the credit simply misread the amount.

 

At the end of the days work, if no other mistakes had occurred, a shortage of

£19,800 would quickly have been worked out as the difference between £200

and £20,000 to anyone used to working with figures.

 

Then you quickly scan for any £20,00 credits and it wouldn't take long to find.

Hence the money being whipped out around 4.30 pm. On the other hand, they may

have not realised until they read your post here.

[PhantomReclaimer]

Dont get me wrong she has no intention of keeping the money but the offence above is only relevant if the money is obtained dishonestly which in her case it hasnt

see below

 

(Copied from some law book on the internet)

 

It is made clear that a credit is only "wrongful" if it derives from a dishonest source i.e. stolen goods, blackmail, theft or the new section 15A offence. In the latter case, a credit side of a money transfer is regarded as "wrongful" if that transfer is obtained in circumstances amounting to the new offence under section 15A. So someone who, through a bank error, is credited an amount to an account, realises the mistake and does nothing about it will not be guilty of the new section 24A offence. Such conduct would not amount to an offence under the Theft legislation unless the taking of advantage of another's mistake in these circumstances can amount to theft contrary to section 1 of the 1968 Act. Clearly, if D knowingly pockets excess change in a supermarket handed to her because of an assistant's error, then that can amount to theft from the supermarket due to section 5(4) of the 1968 Act; but here the property, the excess change, "belongs to" the supermarket. In the case of the credit transfer, however, Preddy makes it clear that the property does not "belong to" the person, V, from whose account the amount is debited but instead belongs in essence to the bank who operates that account; so it would seem that there is no section 1 theft offence as against V, the customer.

 

May I ask where that comes from because it seems utterly contrary to what that section actually says.

 

EDIT; actully, it does make more sense now that I've re-read it at a more respectable hour.

 

P.

[Lizzy]

We had over 2K credited to our account by mistake. We never noticed it as we have buy to let properties and 18 students paying, money comes in and out and thats that really. We received a letter from Barclays demanding it back (because we had spent it) this was after about two or three months. The letter spouted the law of mistake. Although in our case it was deposited in the right account as the person concerned had not used their account for many many years and they had given her account number to us !!!!! you just wouldn't believe it would you.......

Anyway we had spent it so couldn't pay it back straight away so we now have an INTEREST FREE LOAN. It's a pain really when your not expecting it.

[Tobes]

hmmmmm - there was a discussion about this on some money programme and I believe they said that the bank was NOT allowed to withdraw it back from your account without your premission, whether it was in actual fact theirs or not...If you still wanted to make some mischief you could query that with them

[rogerebaker]

My daughter had a letter today from the bank explaining that the cashier had made an error when inputting the amount.

 

They apologised for the mistake.

 

I think I am going to bank this one and use it when the next charge appears. Hopefully it shouldnt be any time soon as she is flushed at the moment.

 

Ive had a good read around the internet on this subject and it appears that if you are able to transfer the money elsewhere the bank will have an almighty job trying to get it back.

 

If you could convince a court that you genuinly thought it was yours and spent it the chances are you wouldnt have to pay it back.

 

Never mind it was fun for a day

[lookinforinfo]

If it was a much smaller sum that £20,000, you might have a chance of

convincing a Court that it was a genuine mistake on your part. In this case however,

as you mentioned it on this forum, that argument is shot to threads regardless of the sum involved.

Incidentally there have been one or two threads here, where the bank had not

discovered the mistake for several months. Or where the money had wrongly gone to, to be more precise. Then I think the bank allowed them to repay over a period-

interest free I think.

[dax]

Im in the same boat!

Halifax paid interest into my account wrongly over 13 months..I had no idea and spent the money. A costs daughtsman im an unrelated Courtcase, looking at my accounts, noticed the error and informed me. I was confused and still not sure what was right or wrong. I contacted the Halifax to ask hem to check..this took another 4 months to confirm (in between phonecalls where I was told it was mine, then an error) still confused, but assuming it was mine, I spent it. At the moment im arguing this error with the bank and am no further forward. This has been going on now for 10 months since the discovery and I am waiting for a reply...

 

I was certainly not doing anything illegal and was totally unaware any interest paid was wrong.......a complete suprise to me.and this is on record, taped during a Court case.......................

[dax]

sent a message but dont know where it went so ill send it again......

 

Had 7k wrongly paid into my account over 13 months by Halifax in interest amounts monthly. Never thought anymore, as I had a large amount in account. This was discovered, by chance, when a costs draughtsman in an unrelated Court case was checking my accounts.

 

Very confused and a total suprise to me.....so I adjourn and phone the Halifax...they say its mine and interest due...but I ask them to double check and acknowledge that in writing.......Having heard no more, I assume its mine and spend it. They take another 4 months to clarify that actually an error was made so now I owe them 7k.

 

I have been disputing this debt for the past 10 months, since initially I brought it to their attention and they were none the wiser. I too was none the wiser, assuming it was mine and the costs draughtsman must be wrong. So where does one stand in such circumstances. I say, they should not make such a mistake and certainly an ongoing one over 13 months without noticing. Why should I be billed for 7k now.

 

I was certainly not breaking the law nd had no idea any errors had been made on my interest payments. This is on record on a Court tape, during a taped hearing and after trying to make enquiries with the bank and calling them, they took 4 months later to get it right...am I to blame?

 

ill let you know the outcome..............

[NitrousOxide]

sent a message but dont know where it went so ill send it again......

 

Had 7k wrongly paid into my account over 13 months by Halifax in interest amounts monthly. Never thought anymore, as I had a large amount in account. This was discovered, by chance, when a costs draughtsman in an unrelated Court case was checking my accounts.

 

Very confused and a total suprise to me.....so I adjourn and phone the Halifax...they say its mine and interest due...but I ask them to double check and acknowledge that in writing.......Having heard no more, I assume its mine and spend it. They take another 4 months to clarify that actually an error was made so now I owe them 7k.

 

I have been disputing this debt for the past 10 months, since initially I brought it to their attention and they were none the wiser. I too was none the wiser, assuming it was mine and the costs draughtsman must be wrong. So where does one stand in such circumstances. I say, they should not make such a mistake and certainly an ongoing one over 13 months without noticing. Why should I be billed for 7k now.

 

I was certainly not breaking the law nd had no idea any errors had been made on my interest payments. This is on record on a Court tape, during a taped hearing and after trying to make enquiries with the bank and calling them, they took 4 months later to get it right...am I to blame?

 

ill let you know the outcome..............

As far as I can tell legally it's yours. No deception, no theft and you brought it to their notice and was told all is ok. They will have a monumentous task recovering that.

[rogerebaker]

As far as I can tell legally it's yours. No deception, no theft and you brought it to their notice and was told all is ok. They will have a monumentous task recovering that.

 

I have read a bit on this over the l;ast few weeks

 

The banking ombudsman appears to have the power to decide whether you have to pay it back. I would say in your case youd have a reasnoble chance.

 

The internet has a few good forums on this. enter bank credit in error or somthing similar in google and loads comes up.

[goforit]

Retaining a wrongful credit is an offence;

 

[24A Dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit]

 

 

[(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect of which he has any right or interest;

(b) he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and

© he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled.

 

 

 

(2) References to a credit are to a credit of an amount of money.

 

(3) A credit to an account is wrongful if it is the credit side of a money transfer obtained contrary to section 15A of this Act.

 

(4) A credit to an account is also wrongful to the extent that it derives from—

(a) theft;

(b) an offence under section 15A of this Act;

© blackmail; or

(d) stolen goods.

 

(5) In determining whether a credit to an account is wrongful, it is immaterial (in particular) whether the account is overdrawn before or after the credit is made.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.(7) Subsection (8) below applies for purposes of provisions of this Act relating to stolen goods (including subsection (4) above).

(8) References to stolen goods include money which is dishonestly withdrawn from an account to which a wrongful credit has been made, but only to the extent that the money derives from the credit.

(9) In this section “account” and “money” shall be construed in accordance with section 15B of this Act.]

 

P

 

Ok what is the name of that statute. If possible coud you please give details of s15A and s15B of that statute as I think.

 

Also Roger the following questions are relevant, what bank is it, what Country does your daughter live in, is the branch in Scotland, England, Wales, etc. All this is relevant to determine what country's criminal justice laws are relevant.