a working mum on jsa and a work programme?

[Guest]

If a single mother who is on JSA and getting Child Tax Credits and Child Benefit, with one child who is 6yrs old, signs off from JSA will she still be able to claim Child Tax Credits?....even though she would not be working and not claiming JSA Benefit.

[Guest]

A single mother has been on JSA for almost 9 months, and despite meeting her JSAG and even searching for and applying for more jobs than asked to do so, as well as trying to get unpaid voluntary work or work experience, hasn't been successful in getting any type of work, due to the lack of vacancies and the fact that there seems to even be a lack of voluntary work in our area, or maybe they are just over-run with so many people now volunteering. She wanted to volunteer in the hope it may lead to paid work or boost her C.V., neither of which has happened.

The jobcentre have now said that from July if she has no paid work she will have to travel 5 days a week to a Seetec office, which is 10 miles away and costs approx. £8 plus round trip on country bus, and takes an hour each way, to search for work all day, and attend courses. I am guessing this is the work programme. There is literally no available child care for her 6yr old son during the 6 week summer break due to start in July, its not a matter of being able to claim costs, its finding suitable child care. She has been told that she HAS to sign an agreement to attend this or lose her JSA benefit. If she cannot find child care she will have to take her son with her every day? unfortunately there is no family back up that can have the child for her, all the family work, apart from one member who has bipolar disorder and other health issues which make it a not suitable reliable option. Her JSA agreement stated to seek work for 16 hours a week, within local area to enable her to work around school times. She was not required to find full time work. She is now considering signing off JSA and just struggling on with child tax credits until she can find work on her own.

Does she have to give a reason to the jobcentre for signing off? or can she just stop her claim?. I think she may decide to do something self employed but is unsure what as yet and feels the pressure of all this will hinder her rather than help and she may be better off just going it alone, as long as she can provide for her son.

[bcham]

im not sure if you can just sign of and still get your housing benefit and tax credits,i think it will affect them all.

[Guest]

I thought they were paid as to the money coming in and not just to people on benefits?

[Mr.P]

Answering the questions in reverse order:

No reason has to be given for signing off - I had some jobsworth insist on a reason, but he backed down when asked which piece of legislation required me to divulge that information.

 

Seetec will be required to refund travel and care expenses as part of their contract - They will probably say it is not their problem that no suitable childcare is available. But one thing is certain, they will not want a six year old running around making a noise and disrupting proceedings as only a small child can .

As your friend has restrictions on hours due to child care responsibilities, I would suggest that to mandate attendance five days per week is unreasonable - Demanding an agreement be signed would suggest that this is a voluntary activity and the JCP adviser is overreaching his/her authority. If a signature is required under threat of sanction, record the conversation and pen the words "Signed under duress & threat of sanction" to the document.

[**Margaret**]

:Ruby_Tuesday:

 

Yes, child tax credits and housing benefit depend on income (from whatever source) and savings. Shouldn't be a problem if the single mum shows her local authority that she can beg, borrow, or live off savings for the next few weeks.

 

The mum doesn't need a reason to close her claim for jobseekers while she tries to go it alone. But before she does so, there's something about only being available for work during school hours if one's responsible for a child under 13. Hopefully someone else will know more about it.

 

Margaret.

 

Thanx :Mr.P:

Edited June 30, 2013 by **Margaret**

[Guest]

Thankyou Mr P and Margaret....I will try to find out more. She is saying that she has been told that if she doesn't sign and then do this that her claim will be stopped and she will not get her jsa. There was no mention of this being only for the 6 week break, but rather an ending of the claim full stop. Which puzzles me as if they accepted that she only had to seek and get work for 16hrs per week which is what is on her jsag, due to her son being 6yrs old and her having to take him to and collect him from school.....then how the hell can she be expected to be in a seetec office full-time. The pressure this threat has had on her this past few weeks has made her ill with anxiety and not sleeping, dreading her next jc appt this week, which is why she just feels she will sign off and try to manage without the jsa benefit. The only worry is that if she loses her housing benefit she will then be homeless too...they wont let her take anyone with her to the appts at the jc. if she isn't getting jsa I am sure the family will help her out rather than see her and her son go without necessities. Have advised she ring the council tomorrow and try to get confirmation on housing benefit if she signs off. And yes she was at this same seetec place last year, they refused to pay her travel telling her unless she went in every day they couldn't pay it....she managed to get sent back to the jc which has been fine upto now....she puts her son in school at 845 the bus stop for the one country bus that goes to seetec is hourly so the first one she could get would be 10.00 arriving at 11.00 if the bus in on time (rare) and she collects her son at 3.00 so would have to ensure to be back on time...seems nigh on impossible. She has done all asked of her and even given the jc permission to send her cv off to any possible vacancy..she couldn't have done anymore, and they have said this. Yet now she finds herself in this situation.

[Mr.P]

Sounds like your friend is being lied to and messed around on both sides. The JC can not refuse an advocate/companion/witness (I'm sure our friend Flumps can point to the chapter & verse for us) accompanying her to any appointment. As an example, the Post Work Programme Support Chapter v1.2 clearly states :

26. When arranging the interview, consider the claimant’s personal circumstances, including:

 

• taking into account any special needs the claimant has, for example child care, or arranging a sign language interpreter for a deaf claimant
  
• establishing any additional requirements needed to help the claimant fully participate in the interview, arising from their health problems or disabilities.
  
• if they require an advocate or appointee to be present
  

Seetec have downright lied about refunding expenses, and a formal complaint needs to be lodged - Probably best to go through her MP on this as it will cascade down from the top.

[**Margaret**]

:Ruby_Tuesday:

 

Knew I'd seen it somewhere!

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@benefits/documents/digitalasset/dg_199922.pdf

 

Margaret.

[Guest]

Thankyou both of you.

 

I personally went with her to the jc for her appt two weeks ago and was not allowed to go in with her, I was made to wait outside. I was told that I could only go in with her if I was her carer...which I am not. I have also been told that there wasn't enough room for a claimant to have anyone with them, despite the area not being anywhere near full of people. It seems they don't like witnesses.

 

Looking at that link Margaret...forcing seetec in these circumstances is unreasonable and due to the journey times nigh on impossible.

[Guest]

Hoping flumps will come and shed some light if possible.

[Mr.P]

I think it might also help if we knew exactly what "programme" your friend is being forced to sign up to. i.e. Is it a voluntary and short term intervention or a "mandatory" programme intended for a certain group of claimants ?

[Guest]

Good point Mr.P I am seeing her in the morning so I will go through it with her and find out exactly whats what. All she said to me earlier was that as she had been on jsa for almost 9 months, if she hadn't gotten paid work by July she would have to go the seetec place, 5 days a week for all day job searching on the computers, and any courses they decided to send her on. She was told she would have to sign to agree to do this and do it or lose her jsa. Does seem odd given her child care responsibilities and time frame during the day and that her jsag states she needs to find work for 16 hrs per week, and the 1h travel time to seetec on public transport and time frame again, during school time. Plus lack of availability of child care in the 6 week break and there is no way she could take the child to seetec to sit around all day while she did any of this....I will let her use my phone tomorrow and speak to the jc and try and shed light on what the hell this is all about.

[Nystagmite]

Something doesn't seem right here. You're not required to sign anything. Not signing anything has no affect on your JSA claim. It just means that when you find a job and sign off.

 

When I was on the work programme, we did have someone come in with their child. But we were only there for about half to one hour or so. Certainly not an all day thing.

[jasta11]

Definitely something 'off' here - if the lady has only been claiming for 9 months then she shouldn't yet be on any work program courses - they usually come after you've been claiming for a year or more. WP's have to provide for childcare and expenses - they've already been given money for it as part of their contract. You are entitled to have someone with you when you attend the JC - I see lots of people with someone with them even when they're just signing on

 

Definitely needs serious complaints to be made about that JC advisor; people like that are dangerous. Wonder if this is a 'target driven' thing? Force people onto courses to get the numbers down. Hope you get it sorted, keep us informed as to the outcome - and as Mr P says, record everything if you can.

[Guest]

Thanks everyone....I am glad that its not just me seeing something a bit wonky here. I will go with her certainly to her appointment this week and try and get in with her, the security guys and the jc guy where you check in are the ones saying I cant go in with her as its upstairs and no room, the layout is same as downstairs and yes I have also seen others signing downstairs with people with them, but they will send you out if they feel like it, and make you wait outside. However there does seem something wrong with this recent set-up so if we cant get anyone on the phone today then I will go with her this week and say she needs someone there as she is obviously not understanding as what she "thinks" they are saying to her doesn't appear to comply with legislation or some kinda guff like that.

If we get someone on the phone today and clarify this I will be on later to update.......thanks again all...xxxxxx

[Guest]

This is the Work Programme, I have just seen on the CAB info about it that as she is 24, that after 9 months of jsa they go on the work programme, so that now makes sense why she is being sent to seetec. I am guessing the signing of the form bit is what seetec will give her. The job search requirements and courses etc that they can impose as per the work programme must be what the jc advisor was talking about. So now we just need to ensure that what seetec tell her to do is within the limitations she has due to childcare responsibilities, her problem is going to be the time frame and public transport for the journey to and from, the location of the nearest bus stop for this one bus that runs hourly and not often on time, and getting the required amount of time done at seetec whilst keeping within school times. Also she will still have to sign on I assume at the jc? so basically she cant possibly do that if shes got to be at seetec all day 5 days a week....however...that we will clarify.

I have seen much on here about signing/not signing stuff for seetec...now is the time I need to fully understand this in order to help her.

[Mr.P]

I had kinda wondered if your friend fell in to the 18-25 group for the purpose of an early sign up to the Work Programme. Now we know, there is a wealth of documents (provider guidance) on the DWP site that we can refer to. There have also been quite a few Freedom of Information requests filed and the "official" responses fill in some of the gaps regarding what the providers can and can not do. Three things that may allay (some of) your friends fears are:

 

• Travel and care costs are to be refunded without any strings attached on producing tickets & receipts.
  
• Mandatory activities must be reasonable and appropriate for her circumstances - i.e. If the buses don't start running until 08:45, no appointments at 09:00.
  
• She does not have to sign anything issued by Seetec - See my thread Mandate by WP provider - Guidance notes for the FoI response.
  

As with the JCP, if she wants to be accompanied by and advocate/friend and/or record conversations, the provider must make suitable provision and can not refuse.

 

One last thing: She will still need to sign on at her usual time and this takes priority over any appointment that Seetec may make - If, at any time, the provider mandates an appointment or activity that clashes with the signing on time/date, ignore it and attend the JCP to sign on.

[Nystagmite]

When I was on the WP and had to sign on, I was given a form by JC and had to just hand the piece of paper in on the day I'd normally sign on.

[Guest]

The jc have shown her an agreement on the jc computer, which is the one they have told her she HAS to sign at seetec. It states they can call her in anytime and that job searches there at seetec must be done every day and for the hours that seetec say and this is all day or the majority of it. The jc advisor actually said that whatever is said in conversation about her child care limitations etc that the agreement actually states the all day/majority of day, 5 days a week , although she is expected

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the jc are saying that seetec have an agreement which she has to sign or she will not get her jsa. the agreement was put up on the computer screen for her to see, it stated 5 days a week, for the majority or all of the day. The minimum (the jc are saying) would be for example 9-3....which is ridiculous. the jc have also said that even if a conversation takes place with seetec and her with regard to her child care limitations, the actual agreement states majority or full day, and they can call her in and insist she is there at anytime, regardless. She has to do fully what is on that agreement, if she doesn't sign it and do it then she will lose her jsa. I am going with her to her appointment this week with anything I can find here printed off....although its the jc and not seetec this week. Surely the jc must know this is ridiculous?

Thanks for that thread Mr.P I will print off anything that applies.

[Mr.P]

A JCP adviser would not have access to any Seetec agreements on his/her screen, so this thing your friend is being pressured to sign sounds very much like a new Jobseekers Agreement - If this JSAg imposes conditions that ignore her childcare responsibilities, she can insist (dare I say, demand) that it be referred to a Decision Maker for a second opinion.

 

The more I hear, the more I'm thinking your friend really needs the support of a witness at her next appointment - In which case, ring the local JCP and advise them that you will be accompanying her and refusal is not an option for them.

[Guest]

Yes Mr.P I think your spot on then, as she was told it was the agreement she had to sign and adhere to, and it would not be at the jc but at this seetec place. Thankyou yes I will do that. I will let you know what happens, the appointment at the jc with advisor is on Thursday at 2.00 she is only ever there for half hour, on a 2.00 appointment as leaving at 230 is just enough time to get from one part of town to the other to collect her son from school at 3.00. The route is such that there is no bus that is really any point in using, its easier to walk as she can cut through roads that the bus doesn't travel along. And I will print off any js info that will be helpful to take with us. Thankyou again for your help.

[Guest]

Well I got in with her this time. You could hear a pin drop and cut the atmosphere with a knife. It was more than obvious that they were uncomfortable with her being in there with an advisor. What they were saying wasn't the same as she had told me from before, I suspect my presence was the reason, we asked for the form she had been shown last time to be put back up on screen for us to have another look at......computer said no, for some reason it wasn't possible. Upshot is that she is now 9 months into signing on jsa and under 25 so is to go on work programme, we had issue with the jsag (new) due to the input I have put in earlier posts on this. We put in writing the issues/reasons, and she asked for a second opinion by decision maker.........meanwhile she has found herself some cleaning work, on a self employed basis which will pay her slightly more than the £71 jsa and is going to go for that and hopefully build up some more work or find a part time job to boost it, so I think she will sign off next time anyhow. There is no way she is going to attend seetec and the work programme she would rather struggle on her own. Which I guess is what they want. If there were any reason to have faith in the work programme and its courses etc then she would feel differently of course...

[Guest]

A 25yr old lone parent mum going to study at college to gain qualifications, can she claim any benefits for living expenses?

 

Course woukd be part time, maybe some home study, depending whats available.

[Nystagmite]

How old is her youngest child? She would still be entitled to tax credits and child benefit.