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Claim Form DLC/Hillies old-MBNA credit card *** Settled by Tomlin Order***


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Just getting my ducks in a row before I start to construct my defence:-

 

21st Sept 09- CCA request to OC

 

6th Oct 09- Reply from OC with signed copy of application form and T&C which are current current. No T&C that were in place at the time of signing.

 

8th Oct 09- I reply back as though the T&C supplied were in place at the time of signing. I queried various sections, all valid queries if the T&C had been in place at time of signing i.e. on the application it says ‘read clause 11 on how we will process your data’, however clause 11 on the T&C is in relation to Altering the Agreement.

 

26th Oct 09- OC reply with ‘your objections are not well founded’ and you need to pay.

 

18th Dec 09- I reply explaining my disappointment at their reply and suggest they address my concerns.

 

8th Feb 10- OC issue invalid DN (1 day short of remedy time). Remedy time should have been 26th Feb, they suggested 25th Feb. I do not explain this to OC.

 

19th Feb 10- OC notify me the account has been sold to DCA (within the remedy time)

 

28th July 10- DCA supply same documents as OC did on 6th Oct 09 (signed application form and current T&C) and a lengthy letter why I need to pay.

 

29th July 10- I reply to DCA with my argument that the DN was invalid and the T&C supplied cannot have been for the application I signed as the clauses mention in the application do not correlate to the clauses on the T&C i.e. on the application it says ‘read clause 11 on how we will process your data’, however clause 11 on the T&C is in relation to Altering the Agreement.

 

6th Sept 10- OC send me a letter in reply to mine of 18th Dec 09, some 9 months after, and they enclose a new set of T&C which they state were in place at the time of signing and the previous set were current T&C.

 

17th Sept 10- I reply to OC stating the T&C you have now supplied have a ‘serious error’ by the author and I suspect they have been constructed after the agreement was signed and have been produced as a direct result of DCA contacting them regarding my queries on the original set of T&C supplied. I have asked them as they sold the account in Feb 10, do not contact me again.

 

22nd Dec 10- DCA also supply the same 2nd set of T&C as OC did on the 17th Sept.

 

24th Dec 10- DCA write to offer a 25% discount on the balance due.

 

8th Jan 11- I write to DCA to explain the T&C they, and OC, now state are the T&C in place on the signing of the agreement are incomplete. The application asks you to refer to clauses 2.4, 3.5 and 3.6 in the T&C with regards to repayments, however there is no 2.4 in the new T&C supplied. Further the application states these are ‘some’ of the condition contained in conditions 1 and 2 of the T&C and refer to the T&C for conditions 1 and 2. However the T&C now supplied start at clause 3.

 

18th Feb 11- DCA reply back after ‘referring back to the OC’ on 14th Jan, and supply a 3rd set of T&C. They state they have been provided by OC and these were the ones in place at the time of signing. There is no mention of the 2nd set of T&C supplied previously by OC; and DCA. The new set are supplied on one A4 sheet and one A3. The A3 runs from term 1 to term 19 and has no terms 4, 5 or 6. The A4 version has the title in the middle of the clauses and runs from term 1 to 19 and duplicates clauses 3.5 up to 7.3. The layout is just not logical and they have never been supplied previously by anyone.

 

28th Feb 11- My solicitor contacts OC to verify the 3rd set of T&C now supplied by DCA were in place at the time of signing or if the 2nd set were in place at the time of signing. If they were to change and state the 3rd set were actually in place we would require the following:- to see their ‘document storing copying and retrieval procedure’ including log entries for 6th Sept (when OC provided the 2nd set of T&C), internal and external audit reports for the period from the one before 6th Sept to present time, copies of quality assurance accreditation covering the same period and showing the process followed complies, a full audit trail from the terms in place prior to signing the application and every change including letters of notification of change to the present terms in place and copies of each terms that have been in place.

 

26th May 11- OC reply confirming the 2nd set were in place at the time of signing and enclose a further copy. This obviously contradicts DCA version of the 3rd set being in place. I have not discussed this with DCA.

 

8th Dec 11- DCA offer 50% discount.

 

2nd Feb 13- Receive Court Claim from DCA via Aplins

 

4th Feb 13- Acknowledge Service online with intention to defend.

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Hi

 

A bit of advice please.

 

I would like a veiw on the bones of my defence now I have started putting it together. When I post it up, should I leave the names of the parties to the claim in except mine! (they will get to see it anyway I suppose).

 

Thanks

 

Alloyz

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Up to you but if the Claimant/Sol is named we tend to know how they operate and their strengths and weaknesses and what possible course of action they will respond with.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Thanks Andy

 

Please see below- It is my first draft so will need some reference to relevant regs but any advice would be great thanks

 

I put the claimant to strict proof the execution of the agreement met the compliance standards set out in Consumer Credit Act 1974 s61, and is therefore enforceable under s127.

 

 

1.

Supplied 6th Oct 2009 by MBNA a document entitled “Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974” stated as up to date Terms and Conditions and a copy of the original Application with the Financial and Related Conditions supplied and on the reverse.

 

A.

The Financial and Related Conditions supplied and on the reverse of the application are not mentioned once throughout the entire application.

 

The applicant cannot be deemed to have read and understand them if they are unaware of their existence. The applicant is not required, on the application form, to sign that he has read and understood or even seen the ‘Financial and Related Conditions’.

 

The Application was filled in whilst visiting a Service Station and was on a clip board. The rear was not pointed out to me verbally or referenced in the application and was not visible before or after signing.

 

B.

There is reference of the document entitled “MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions” in the declaration section; however up to and including the 6th Oct 2009 documents with this title has not been supplied and was not supplied whilst applying.

 

 

2.

Supplied 12th February 2010 by MBNA a Default Notice dated 8th February 2010

 

A.

Default Notice sent 2nd Class.

Date of service is therefore 4 days after posting and therefore 12th February 2010. The remedy time is 14 clear days AFTER service. Therefore, remedy date should therefore have been 26th February 2010 (13th Feb to 26th Feb).

 

This is a point of law and makes the default notice invalid in accordance with Consumer Credit Enforcement, Default and Termination, Notices Regulations 1983 (Schedule 2, section 3,c)

 

B.

Aside from the allowable time to remedy the breach being insufficient to render the Default Notice valid, the account was sold inside the Default period (I was notified of the sale to Direct Legal- DTL on the 19th February 2010),

 

This is contrary to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 s87 (1) (a).

 

 

3.

Supplied 6th Sept 2010 by MBNA and 22nd December 2010 by Hillesdens a document entitled “Terms and Conditions” which are stated as Original Terms and Conditions with a reference number of MB 04/01, a copy of the original Application with Financial and Related Conditions supplied on the reverse and a document entitled “Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974” stated as up to date Terms and Conditions.

This document entitled “Terms and Conditions” has a reference number in the bottom left hand corner. This reference number is MB 04/01. This is suggesting they were current for the period of April 2001, 1 month previous to my Application.

 

A.

The document entitled “Terms and Conditions” supplied on 6th Sept 2010 by MBNA and Hillesdens on 22nd December 2010 and both parties stating these are the Original Terms and Conditions at the time of signing the Agreement are not referred to once throughout the entire application form and could be for any Agreement or Application.

 

B.

The Financial and Related Conditions on the reverse of the application form, condition 4, states in relation to “repayments” ‘...except as mentioned in 2.4, 3.5 and 3.6’.

 

In the document entitled “Terms and Conditions” supplied on 6th Sept 2010 by MBNA and Hillesdens on 22nd December 2010 and both stating these are the Original Terms and Conditions at the time of signing the Agreement, there is the absence of a condition 2.4 in the documents supplied to me.

 

Repayments are a Prescribed Term and as instructed by s61, should be included in the Agreement document.

 

A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

C.

In the document entitled “Terms and Conditions” supplied on 6th Sept 2010 by MBNA and Hillesdens on 22nd December 2010 and both stating these are the Original Terms and Conditions at the time of signing the Agreement, it states “please refer to your credit agreement for conditions 1 and 2” and this document then starts at condition 3.

 

On the Application it states “set out in paragraphs 1-15 are “some” of the provisions contained in Conditions 1 and 2 of the MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions”.

 

However up to and including 6th Sept 2010 I had not been supplied with a document entitled “MBNA Credit Card Terms and Conditions” and on the “Terms and Conditions” supplied there is no condition 1 or 2.

 

Prescribed Terms must be included in the Agreement documents and there is a lack of the full conditions 1 and 2 to be found in any documents supplied.

 

A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

4.

Supplied 18th February 2011 by Hillesdens 2 documents, both entitled “Terms and Conditions of the MBNA Credit Card and Credit Card Cheques”.

 

I was supplied with 2 documents and Hillesdens state these are from the original lender.

 

These documents are not set out in any logical format and the larger document does not contain all of the conditions the applicant is requested to refer to on the back of the application:

 

• The larger document runs from Term 1 to 3.4. There is an absence of Term 4, 5, 6 and resumes at Term 7.4.

 

• The Financial and Related Conditions on the reverse of the application form, condition 4, states in relation to “repayments” ‘...except as mentioned in 2.4, 3.5 and 3.6’. This larger document does not contain 3.5 or 3.6 however it states this document is a ‘…full set of terms and conditions of the MBNA Credit Card and Credit Cheques referred to on the back of your application’.

 

• There is no mention of referring to a document entitled “MBNA Credit Card and Credit Cheques” within the application I signed

 

• The smaller document duplicates Terms 3.5 to 7.3.

 

• The smaller document is illegible at A4 size.

 

• The smaller document has a title in the middle of the page.

 

• I have never been supplied with the documents previously at all.

 

 

5.

Supplied 17th June 2011 (dated 26th May 2011) by MBNA, after my request to MBNA to confirm the terms and Conditions supplied on the 6th Sept 2010 were the ones in force at the time of signing the application.

 

A.

I asked MBNA to re-confirm the Terms and Conditions in force at the time the application was signed due to a conflict of MBNA information and Hillesdens. The same copy as supplied in MBNA and Hillesdens letters on 6th Sept 2010 were supplied by MBNA and they were confirmed as the ones in force at the time of signing the application.

Therefore please refer to 3 A, B and C.

 

B.

Hillesdens have stated the original lender has supplied the previous terms and conditions in 4. This is contradicted by MBNA and shown in my defence section 5. I put the claimant to strict proof of authenticity of the documents under CPR32.19.

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Hi Alloyz

 

First draft...you mean its going to get longer?:!:

 

Defending any claim is like playing chess there is a process to follow.Vague Particulars of Claim entered..argument kept minimal ...less is best...less for you to find fault.So long as it complies with CPR 16 the court are happy.I call this testing the water to see what you will do.

Your initial response...you refute or agree anything not referred to is taken as acceptance and admittance by you the defendant.So your response will deal with what they claim and only what they claim...your response just as vague...now you are testing the water and see if they wish to proceed.

 

50% of claims are stayed if the defendants response is correct...do not forget 80% of claims are by way of assignment so its not the OP litigating...they know its pointless and not cost efficient to sue so they write it off and claim tax relief.

Not the debt buyers...but they can afford to submit an initial claim..they bought it for 10p in the pound so any litigation that is successful is good profit..and here on CAG we only see a snapshot so lets assume that 80% of claims are not defended...nice profit nice business.

 

Anyway I digress ......so to the 20% that do offer defence...this creates work and jeopardises their investment in that debt having to now pay further monies and even instruct council (in some cases) to process the claim.That 10p in the £1 now could become a break even trying to get judgment...with the obvious intention of a Charging Order to secure their investment.Not so profitable now.

 

So back to your draft...you have played your hand in one foul swoop and revealed all your argument/contentions that you could possibly offer...there is no surprises left along the way for the AQ or Witness Statement so they can now decide whether to proceed and take you on pay the AQ fee edge their bets with an application for Summary Judgment......game over you lose.

 

Here is an example of a defence drafted this week for another poster:-

 

Re: MBNA / LinkIDR Finance - claim form received... Help?

Particulars of Claim:-

 

1.The Claimant claims the whole of the outstanding balance due and payable under an agreement referenced XXXXX and opened effective from 07/04/2007. The agreement is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, was signed by the Defendant and from which credit was extended to the Defendant.

 

2.The Defendant failed to make payment as required and by 29/02/2012 a default was recorded. As at 27/04/2012 the Defendant owed MBNA Europe Bank Limited the sum of 8,036.95. By an agreement in writing the benefit of the debt has been legally assigned to the Claimant effective 27/04/2012 and made regular upon the Claimant serving a Notice of Assignment upon the Defendant shortly thereafter.

 

3.And the Claimant claims:- 1. 8,166.95 2. interest pursuant to Section 69 county court Act (1984) at a rate of 8% per Annum from 27/04/2012 to 04/01/2013 of 423.30 And thereafter at a daily rate of 1.70 to date of judgment or sooner payment.

 

Defence and Part 20 Counter Claim

 

 

1. Paragraph 1 is admitted with regards to the Defendant entering in to an Agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim ('the Agreement') with the MBNA Europe Bank Limited the Defendant did not enter into any Agreement with the Claimant.

2. Paragraph 2 is admitted but it is denied that MBNA ever served a Default Notice pursuant to the CCA1974 which precludes the claimant from any enforcement or relief.

3. Paragraph 3 is denied the Claimant has failed to serve any Notice of Sums Arrears since assignment pursuant to the CCA2006 amendments (sec 86C ) and precluded form adding any interest or seeking enforcement or relief and the Claimant is put to strict proof to:

 

(a) show service of a valid Default Notice and proof of delivery

(b) show how the Claimant has legal right by way of the Credit Consumer Agreement and Terms and conditions applicable; and

© show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;

 

4. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

5. On the alternative, if the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

6.Incorporated within the sum demanded by the Claimant are sums claimed for their administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions. It is denied (if it be alleged) that the Claimant has incurred any such fees and charges, alternatively that such fees and charges if incurred accurately represent sums lost by the Claimant by reason of late payment. The Defendant avers that the incorporation of such claims is penal and unenforceable at law.

 

7. By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

 

 

 

Part 20 Claim

 

8. The defendant/Part 20 claimant claims sums paid to the claimant /Part 20 defendant in relation to penalty Charges Incorporated within the sum demanded by the Claimant are sums claimed for their administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions.

 

 

And the defendant/Part 20 claimant claims:-

 

 

i) £ XX XXX XXXX unfair charges (expand on reasoning) (insert compound interest) show separate

 

ii) Interest pursuant to Section 69 of the County Courts act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum or up until judgment.

 

 

 

There you are one Defence and Part 20 Counter Claim.Let others verify it before your submission and do not forget to print off your poof of input date time stamp after submission

 

 

 

Time for a rethink Alloyz?

 

Regards

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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Time for a rethink Andy...

 

I guess I am naive on 2 points

 

1. I have not done this before so am a bit lost as to what is expected

 

2. This defence is really a summary of the 3 year episode.

 

I will go away and start again with the defence you have given as a example. Keep It Simple Stupid comes to mind :)

 

Thanks Andy

 

Alloyz

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Not to worry it is a common trap that most litigants fall into....understanding the process/game does bring it into perspective.

We could do with some help from you.

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I am still laughing at "first draft?? You mean its going to get longer??" ;)

 

:wink::boink:

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Ok... After Andy has provided some 'guidance' (still laughing at the above post!!) here is a shortened draft 2...

 

Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The Claimant claims is in respect of a credit facility, XXXXXXXXXXXX, provided by MBNA at the defendants request on 05/06/2001.

 

2. The agreement was subsequently defaulted. Failure to meet requests for payment resulted in the account being terminated.

 

3. On 23/02/2010 all legal and beneficial interest for the monies was assigned to Hillesdens Securities Ltd. The defendant was duly notified in writing of the assignment and that the balance of XXXXX was due. The balance of XXXXX remains owing from the defendant.

 

 

Defence

 

 

1. Paragraph 1 is admitted with regards to the Defendant entering in to an Agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim ('the Agreement') with the MBNA Europe Bank Limited.

 

2. Paragraph 2 is admitted but it is denied that MBNA ever served a Default Notice pursuant to the CCA1974 which precludes the claimant from any enforcement or relief.

 

3. Paragraph 3 is denied the Claimant has not provided an agreement pursuant to CCA1974, which subsequently precludes enforcement. The Claimant is put to strict proof to:

 

(a) show service of a valid Default Notice and proof of delivery

(b) show how the Claimant has legal right by way of the Credit Consumer Agreement and Terms and conditions applicable

© show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;

 

4. Incorporated within the sum demanded by the Claimant are sums claimed for administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions. It is denied (if it be alleged) that the Claimant has incurred any such fees and charges, alternatively that such fees and charges if incurred accurately represent sums lost by the Claimant by reason of late payment. The Defendant avers that the incorporation of such claims is penal and unenforceable at law.

 

5. The Claimant is put to strict proof the:

 

(a) amount claimed is only monies received by the Defendant plus interest, and not made up of any administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions.

 

6. By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

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Thats better......

 

5a is not required nor coherent they are not claiming monies you have payed...otherwise there wouldn't be a debt...and the fact you have already covered that in 4.

 

Your point 3 is also incorrect they dont have to provide a copy of the agreement to prove NoA (Assignment)

As per my above your response should be :-

 

3. On the alternative, if the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.The Claimant has failed to serve any Notice of Assignment. (unless they have then you just have accept the assignment providing it valid.)

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Hi Andy

 

Very much appreciate your input. The donation I am about to make pales into insignificance compared to my benefit.

 

Thank you

 

Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The Claimant claims is in respect of a credit facility, xxxx, provided by MBNA at the defendants request on 05/06/2001.

 

2. The agreement was subsequently defaulted. Failure to meet requests for payment resulted in the account being terminated.

 

3. On 23/02/2010 all legal and beneficial interest for the monies was assigned to Hillesdens Securities Ltd. The defendant was duly notified in writing of the assignment and that the balance of xxxxx was due. The balance of xxxxx remains owing from the defendant.

 

 

Defence

 

 

1. Paragraph 1 is admitted with regards to the Defendant entering in to an Agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim ('the Agreement') with the MBNA Europe Bank Limited.

 

2. Paragraph 2 is admitted but it is denied that MBNA ever served a Default Notice pursuant to the CCA1974 which precludes the claimant from any enforcement or relief.

 

3. Paragraph 3 admitted regarding the Notice of Assignment. The Claimant is put to strict proof to:

 

(a) show service of a valid Default Notice and proof of delivery

(b) show how the Claimant has legal right by way of the Credit Consumer Agreement and Terms and conditions applicable

© show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;

 

4. Incorporated within the sum demanded by the Claimant are sums claimed for administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions. It is denied (if it be alleged) that the Claimant has incurred any such fees and charges, alternatively that such fees and charges if incurred accurately represent sums lost by the Claimant by reason of late payment. The Defendant avers that the incorporation of such claims is penal and unenforceable at law.

 

5. By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

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So you have received a valid Notice of Assignment to enable the claimant to claim the debt in their name?

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Ok excellent... nearly there ....

 

 

Now on your point 2

 

They state" 2. The agreement was subsequently defaulted. Failure to meet requests for payment resulted in the account being terminated. "

 

You state "2. Paragraph 2 is admitted but it is denied that MBNA ever served a Default Notice pursuant to the CCA1974 which precludes the claimant from any enforcement or relief.

 

 

Most DJ would accept that there is a point in law that needs clarifying.. you admit defaulting but to beef up your response... lets add :-

 

2. Paragraph 2 is admitted but it is denied that MBNA ever served a Default Notice pursuant to the CCA1974 the claimant has also failed to serve any Notice of Sums Arrears since assignment pursuant to the CCA2006 amendments (sec 86C ) and precluded form adding any interest or seeking enforcement or relief until such time it is served.

 

 

The secret is knowing how to read a P.O.C and making them work/pay for their investment...dont accept all is said you always question and challenge and add doubt.If you dont the DJ will mostly accept it must be correct then.

 

Your good to go now Alloyz

 

Regards

 

Andy:wink:

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Excellent now should they wish to respond and proceed you can write chapter and verse in your Witness Statement.:wink:

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haha I was waiting for that!!

 

I still am not sure of what happens next but will be reading your litigation notes. When you get time could you explain a few things please?

 

When I submit this defence, do I send it to them as well, out of courtesy or does the court forward to them?

 

Should I wait for the CPR disclosure reply?

 

If they proceed, is a Witness Statement a more detailed insight into the case for the judge and both parties or just the judge?

 

How does an AQ differ from a WS?

 

Thanks

 

Alloyz

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haha I was waiting for that!!

 

I still am not sure of what happens next but will be reading your litigation notes. When you get time could you explain a few things please?

 

When I submit this defence, do I send it to them as well, out of courtesy or does the court forward to them? Northampton Copies them

 

Should I wait for the CPR disclosure reply? Yes only file your defence at the last possible moment (the day before)

 

If they proceed, is a Witness Statement a more detailed insight into the case for the judge and both parties or just the judge? Both Parties exchange and yes more detailed and can include anything relied upon

 

How does an AQ differ from a WS? an Allocation Questionnaire helps the court allocate the claim to its correct track and prepares it for trial (if they wish to proceed and pay the fee that is) a WS is as above

 

Thanks

 

Alloyz

 

Andy

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all now sorted then alloyz? :)

 

Hi ford

 

Yes thankyou. You have all, as usual, been brilliant.

 

I'm just waiting for a reply to my CPR disclosure and extension request.

 

Then I can submit my defence and wait for their move- proceed or not.

 

Feel like I have learned (or been taught) a lot!! Andy has really opened my eyes to how to only address their specific comments and not offer any more info, so not to play your cards too soon and make them consider the work they will have to do over the cost against investment.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Alloyz

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I'm just waiting for a reply to my CPR disclosure and extension request.

 

.....

 

Alloyz

 

and, if they don't respond, could include a short line in your defence mentioning their failure?

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Hi Ford/ Andy

 

If they do not respond or if they respond with an extension of time agreed- Is it possible to notify the court via MCOL or is it best special delivery? I can't say I have looked on MCOL so apologies if its obvious on the site.

 

Basic question I know but all help is very much appreciated.

 

A

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