Bus Penalty Fare today - Transferred Pass - but innocent!

[TFL is HELL]

Hi all!

 

I was approached by a ticket inspector, or whatever they are called now, earlier on this evening. I had paid for my fare with my Oystercard (yes my Oystercard!), however thanks to Boris Johnson I get bus travel at half price as I've been stuck on the Work Programme.

 

Unfortunately, I did not have my photocard with me as they didn't issue me a wallet, & I'd intended travelling home by the Tube.

 

He took me off the bus (though never revealed himself as a revenue inspector) & asked me further details, he said to verify that the card was mine. It was, so I was quite relaxed about it. However, despite taking my details, taking the card number & also seeing bank cards verifying who I was, he wound up giving me a fine. I did not expect this, & he would not explain why he had, & the 10 burly coppers with him wouldn't let me ask him. I did not sign anything.

 

The reason for issue is 9- Transferred Pass. I have looked on here & it seems this is a serious offence, however as mentioned, the pass has not been transferred & I provided all information asked.

 

He actually expected me to pay £40 on the spot, but gave me back the Oystercard, so I am confused.

 

Should I appeal, & how should I go about it? I also want to know if there is a facility on buses so that I can pay the extra 65p? I don't need a photocard to go on the Tube, so if I don't have the pass again, am I to be relentlessly fined?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[renegadeimp]

i would check with the company that he supposdly works for or TFL. Let them know what was going on and it was indeed your card. I'm curious to know why you gave your info to someone who didnt tell you who they were.

[TFL is HELL]

renegadeimp

 

I didn't at first, & refused point to give my date of birth without being given a proper reason, though I ultimately did. As mentioned, many police officers (one who only had a year 1 grasp of English)were there, & several more inspectors.

 

Unfortunately, it goes through IRCAS, & I would guess they are just rubber stampers. Has anyone had any positive experiences with them?

[firstclassx]

If he was with 10 x police then he was evidently real. He doesn't need to give you his name. His ID number is on the Penalty Fare.

 

Assuming it is the JobCentre 50% discount, you need the photocard on the tube AND bus. If you don't carry it, you are liable for a Penalty Fare (or even prosecution). Just because you are never asked for it, doesn't mean you don't need one.

 

You need to carry this at all times, regardless of what transport method you take:

 

or

 

As for the Penalty Fare, (although you are eligible for one), you can appeal that it has been incorrectly completed, (wrong reason selected). Don't think they'd pursue it...

 

Did you actually accept the Penalty Fare, or did you refuse and he has reported you?

Edited September 20, 2012 by firstclassx

[TFL is HELL]

If he was with the police then he was evidently real. He doesn't need to give you his name. His ID number is on the Penalty Fare.

 

Assuming it is the JobCentre 50% discount, you need the photocard on the tube AND bus. If you don't carry it, you are liable for a Penalty Fare. Just because you are never asked for it, doesn't mean you don't need one.

 

You need to carry this at all times, regardless of what transport method you take:

 

As for the Penalty Fare, (although you are eligible for one), you can appeal that it has been incorrectly completed.

 

Did you actually accept the Penalty Fare, or did you refuse and he has reported you?

 

I didn't know I was getting a Penalty Fare at all until he handed it to me! None of the Explanations of Reason for Issue seem to apply.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]38415[/ATTACH]

 

In this link, a revenue inspector talks about passes they suspect don't belong to the holder & their judgement (edit- I can't post links yet, but it's Hafiza Revenue protection Officer on the TFL site). This guy didn't even tell me he didn't think that it was mine.

 

By the way, there is no 50% reduction on the Tube, it is only on buses, which confuses things more, especially there being no facility to pay the standard Oystercard rate if you do not have a photocard, which is a bit of an error.

 

9-Transferred Pass - is considered one of the worst offences - I just didn't have a photocard. I thought they were meant to retain any fraudulently held oystercards.

 

I just know it's going to be a waste of time talking to any bored numpty at IRCAS. Has anyone ever had any luck? I'm having a seriously bad run of it.

Edited September 20, 2012 by TFL is HELL

[firstclassx]

All of the reasons for a Penalty Fare are all of the same "severity". No offence is worse than another unless you are being prosecuted, which you're not.

 

You need to give us more information on what pass it is that you hold, because if it isn't New Deal/JobCentrePlus Travel Card, we can't advise! Maybe upload a scan of whatever you have as well as the penalty fare?

[TFL is HELL]

The Penalty Fare is brutally non-descript. It has the time, place, badge, route etc, & the Reason for Issue 9.

 

It appears to be a JSA card. It is not Job Centre Plus. It's for 6 months, discounted for bus & tram use. No sanctions are threatened on the application form, & they are not straightforward either on TFL's Conditions of Carriage, which I doubt anybody has read.

 

I can see a few points that a judge would find interesting, but Ircas would completely ignore.

 

1/ Incorrect coding. A Penalty Fare must be correctly issued.

 

2/ Absolutely no definition of a Transferred Pass anywhere that I can find. It obviously refers to a pass given to someone else, but is it also an all encompassing thing acting as a catch al?

 

3/ No ability to use an oystercard at the full rate if you don't have a photocard. Honestly, this is an area to exploit as the full oystercard rate is £1 lower than the cash charge.

 

4/ No clear indication of any sanction, & its level for mislaying your pass & using your oystercard on a bus - when you are fine on the Tube.

 

5/ If the pass was transferred, surely they should have taken it back.

 

I wouldn't mind, but I haven't done anything wrong & this is a victimless "crime"! I think I've used it 5 times, saving me £3.25 versus £5 for the photos, & now a £40-£80 fine. If I'd done this last year it would have cost £25.

 

The full fine is 1230% of the value supposedly missing, but which I was entitled to.For someone on JSA! Cheers Boris.

[markl1987]

Is this what you have? If so it says a lot about it, the requirement for a photocard is printed on the front page of the application form...

 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14306.aspx

[firstclassx]

The Penalty Fare is brutally non-descript. It has the time, place, badge, route etc, & the Reason for Issue 9.

 

It appears to be a JSA card. It is not Job Centre Plus. It's for 6 months, discounted for bus & tram use. No sanctions are threatened on the application form, & they are not straightforward either on TFL's Conditions of Carriage, which I doubt anybody has read.

 

I can see a few points that a judge would find interesting, but Ircas would completely ignore.

 

1/ Incorrect coding. A Penalty Fare must be correctly issued.

 

2/ Absolutely no definition of a Transferred Pass anywhere that I can find. It obviously refers to a pass given to someone else, but is it also an all encompassing thing acting as a catch al?

 

3/ No ability to use an oystercard at the full rate if you don't have a photocard. Honestly, this is an area to exploit as the full oystercard rate is £1 lower than the cash charge.

 

4/ No clear indication of any sanction, & its level for mislaying your pass & using your oystercard on a bus - when you are fine on the Tube.

 

5/ If the pass was transferred, surely they should have taken it back.

 

I wouldn't mind, but I haven't done anything wrong & this is a victimless "crime"! I think I've used it 5 times, saving me £3.25 versus £5 for the photos, & now a £40-£80 fine. If I'd done this last year it would have cost £25.

 

The full fine is 1230% of the value supposedly missing, but which I was entitled to.For someone on JSA! Cheers Boris.

 

Your one and only valid point is that the Penalty Fare is incorrectly issued. That is your appeal basis. The rest is common sense. What else could "transferred pass" mean in the context of fare evasion? Don't mention anything other than the PF being incorrectly issued. You were certainly liable for a Penalty Fare or prosecution, you've gotten lucky they messed the notice up, otherwise it would have definitely been a lost cause.

 

Fare evasion is by no meansa "victimless" crime.

 

Furthermore, the TfL website has a very clear and simple indication of how to use it.

 

You need to use your photocard with an Oyster card.

 

Carry your photocard and Oyster card together when you travel

Touch in on the yellow card readers at the start of every journey

Don't let anyone else use your photocard or Oyster card

 

Make sure you carry a photocard with you at all times in the future.

[kayliecat]

Hello,sorry for being nosey but I was just wondering the outcome of your appeal? I was fined for a transferred pass on a bus monday, I too showed other forms of I.D and gave the inspector all my details.

 

I assume my son had been playing with my photocard with out my realising as it wasn't in my purse when the inspector got on and I found it at home. I even got on the bus at the same stop as the inspector, you would think it would be obvious that it was an honest mistake but despite everything he fined me.

 

I appealed with a copy of my discount photocard to IRCA and they rejected my appeal saying it was my responsibility to carry my photocard.

 

I agree but surely the fact the fine was issued for a transferred pass and I proved I was the rightful owner they should remove the fine?

 

surely because it was issued incorrectly I can dispute this.

 

The inspector told me I could send a copy of my photocard and it would be removed!

 

It would be really nice to know how you got on or if you have any advice.

 

Kaylie

[Aji]

Hello,sorry for being nosey but I was just wondering the outcome...

I assume my son had been playing with my photocard with out my realising as it wasn't in my purse when the inspector got on and I found it at home.

 

I appealed with a copy of my discount photocard to IRCA and they rejected my appeal saying it was my responsibility to carry my photocard.

 

I agree but surely the fact the fine was issued for a transferred pass and I proved I was the rightful owner they should remove the fine?

 

surely because it was issued incorrectly I can dispute this.

 

The inspector told me I could send a copy of my photocard and it would be removed!

 

Kaylie

 

 

Hi.

 

I am in the EXACT boat as u. I was doing the school run. In a rush. Cant find my photocard. Inspector said that i will need to submit my photocard as evidence on an online appeal.

 

So i did. Got refused. Then appealed again.

 

So instead of £40 they are telling me to pay £80. Because the deadline was breeched to reply.

 

Not taking in to consideration that it has been christmas, i have not been at home. I have been visiting family over that christmas break.

 

If the inspector did not give me false advice then i wouldve just paid the £40 fine. Instead of getting white hairs about this silly scenario.

 

So now. I am broke. I mean, doubley broke now because of this ridiculous fine. All because of a piece of cardboard...

 

What can i do now???

 

I cant afford 65p travel. Let alone a £80 fine.

 

Please let me know your out come,

 

Kind regards,

Abi

[Old-CodJA]

Hi.

 

I am in the EXACT boat as u. I was doing the school run. In a rush. Cant find my photocard. Inspector said that i will need to submit my photocard as evidence on an online appeal.

 

So i did. Got refused. Then appealed again.

 

So instead of £40 they are telling me to pay £80. Because the deadline was breeched to reply.

 

Not taking in to consideration that it has been christmas, i have not been at home. I have been visiting family over that christmas break.

 

If the inspector did not give me false advice then i wouldve just paid the £40 fine. Instead of getting white hairs about this silly scenario.

 

So now. I am broke. I mean, doubley broke now because of this ridiculous fine. All because of a piece of cardboard...

 

What can i do now???

 

I cant afford 65p travel. Let alone a £80 fine.

 

Please let me know your out come,

 

Kind regards,

Abi

 

 

How do I use my Bus & Tram Discount card?

 

You need to use your photocard with an Oyster card.

Carry your photocard and Oyster card together when you travel

 

 

The above is taken directly from the TfL site, it does make clear that you MUST carry your photocard with you when you travel, but if you had produced it within the 21 days allowed after you were issued a notice, then these are frequenty cancelled and a warning issued that you must comply in future. Going to visit relatives and the fact that it happened over the Christmas period are irrelevant I'm afraid.

 

Now, if you do not pay the penalty, they could attempt to proceed to prosecution, but I am interested in what reason was given for issue on the notice.

 

If the RPI / Ticket Inspector has marked '9 - Transferred Pass' there will need to be evidence of a second individual either owning and having transferred the pass, or being the person using the pass for a prosecution to succeed. That would also seem to be a charge of 'intent not to pay' rather than a strict liability charge under Byelaws although there is provision in the Byelaws to deal with the offence of a transferred ticket. Whether brought as a Section 5 charge, or as a breach of Byelaw charge, there will have to be clear evidence that the pass is actually transferred for prosecution to succeed.

 

The correct indication on the PF should be 'No ticket' because an incomplete ticket/travel document is not a valid travel ticket. That would comply with the requirement to bring a charge under TfL Byelaw 17.

 

Where a season ticket, Oyster or any other form of travel pass needs a photo identiy card to make it valid for use, it is only valid for travel if it is in date and both parts are shown together.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Old-CodJA

[kayliecat]

Hi Abi, I appealed mine twice and both got rejected. I applied to various appeal companies but they all said "human error" is not an excuse and I didn't have a leg to stand on, despite the fact they filled in my address wrong and giving me a penalty fare for a "transferred pass" The inspector told me all I had to do was send a copy of my photocard. Wonder if it was the same guy, do you live in London? I paid my penalty fare, it left me skint over christmas. I now avoid using buses where ever possible!