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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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blue snail V natwest


blue snail
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Hello i am new here,

I have read many posts in the forum and its reassuring to find people in allmost the same situation as me with natwest advantage gold accounts. I have all my old statements going back 6 years and the total is going to be around £ 4,500. I still cant find any example letters or template letters here can anyone help ? ?

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Hi there and welcome to the forum :)

 

All of the templates you're looking for can be found here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/

 

Have you read the FAQ's? If not then I would seriously recommend that you do so before sending any letters in order to avoid problems further down the line...

 

Andy

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Hello ! my name is blue snail and i am just starting a claim against natwest on a advantage gold account because they have taken £ 3737.00 from me in the last 6 years and i want my hard-earned money back !

 

Right the bit i dont understand is in the template prelim letter is sais "What i require ; I calculate that you have taken £XXXXX plus £XXX which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum which you have taken"

 

O.K. now i have been reading the forums every night this week and from what i can gather you dont add on interest at the prelim stage only much later in the process so why is it in the prelim letter ? ?

 

I understand the concept of adding APR by dividing 8% by 12 to give a monthly figure, then multiplying by the number of months since the charge occured etc etc.

 

I just want someone who has allready been through this to say what they wrote in this part of the prelim letter to natwest, i am cool with everything else and want to get it sent off tonight . . any help please ? ?

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There are 2 instances of interest you can claim:

 

1.When you go overdrawn the bank will charge you interest, perfectly lawfully.

 

However, if part of your overdraft is made up of penalty fees, they are also charging you interest on these too and it is this interest which you are entitled to claim back, but it's tricky to separate out from the total interest figure.

 

Vampiress has a spreadsheet, (the advanced one), in the bank templates library, which attempts to calculate this

 

It's quite complex and unless your claim is large may not amount to that much, so for simplicity's sake, some people don't bother

 

This is the interest referred to in the preliminary and LBA letters.

 

2. Section 69 8% interest on your claim, but only when you submit a claim at court. Don't add this interest before moneyclaim

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thanks Michael. Therfore would you say its worth claiming the interest on £ 3,737.00 ? The charges were spread randomly over the last 6 years so i could take each charge in turn and work out the interest to the present day but it would take a long time.

I just wanted to find someone who has already successfully been through the process and what they put at that stage of the letter - i guess most people just left out the interest bit which is what i may do in the knowlegde that i may be able to add on this 8% apr thing at the court stage, am i making sense ??

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Claiming overdraft interest on £3737 esp dating from 6 years ago could add several hundred pounds to your claim.

 

Claiming contractual interest would add significantly more. This long thread explains more:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/18313-why-no-one-claiming.html?highlight=contractual

 

Vampiress and Mindzai both have s/s which work this out.

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Blue Snail here still struggling with interest element ;

 

Just to re-cap - I am just about to write my prelim letter to natwest

 

- I am going to claim £ 3737. in total going back 6 years, my overdraft limit is £2000. on an advantage gold account and during the 6 years i have allways been overdrawn and sometimes over the £2000 limit - but not for very long

 

- Here is what i am trying to work out, i wish to calculate and then add an interest element to list in the prelim letter as per the template and i want it to be realistic but not so ridiculous to give me a good chance i dont want to be too greedy i.e. on a £3,700ish claim + interest of 400 or so.

 

- this is how i have tried to work it out manually ( I didnt care much for the spreadsheets and they wont work on my mac anyway) ;

 

For example in 2001 in 1 month I had charges of £ 224.00 . . ok

- The monthly agreed % on agreed overdraft is 1.3%

- This would equate to £ 2.91 at the end of that month ( 224 x 1.3%)

- The charge occured 58 months ago so £ 2.91 x 58 = £ 168.78

 

So what im saying is using this method it will be hundreds of pounds - too much ? ?

 

Has anyone tried doing the same thing or am i totally barking up the wrong tree ? Im thinking of not including any interest at this stage cos its too much hassle but i dont like giving up !

 

Any help greatfully received as ive been thinking about this for days !

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  • 4 weeks later...

Question and update :

Ive got to the stage where I am ready to take natwest to court by moneyclaim online but ive been reading the threads to see what the likely outcome/response will be from corbetts.

 

It seems like they are requesting more details - when i sent my first letter i didnt itemise every single charge as there are many many over the last 6 years i just gave monthly totals. Ive since been back over every statement and noted the details of every charge and the problem is

 

a) Ive made two mistakes in my adding up totaling about £20. (not much in a 4K claim)

b) When i added the interest monthly i rounded it down to the nearest whole pound

 

This means my response to them if they request more details will be slightly different to the first letters to natwest is this going to be a problem ? should i put the revised totals on the court form N1 (or its online equivelent)

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If the errors are in their favour I wouldn't worry too much but be sure that you aren't claiming the Advantage Gold Fee. That is a legitimate service charge that you can't recover.

 

I suggest that you submit your itemisation on an excel spreadsheet stating the date the charge was made, the amount and the reason given for the charge.

 

Make sure you keep copies because they will almost certainly ask you for them again at a later date.

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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Thanks paul

 

The errors are in MY favour to the tune of £26. so I am a bit concerned. I sent the original list neatly typed up in a sort of table because I have an old applemac and exell doesnt work very well. The thing is do I send a revised (and more detailed breakdown) schedule now to cobbets or cobblers (whatever the name is) because I will be doing it online and shall I put the revised amounts on the N1 or whatever its online equivelent is ?

 

Your help is greatly appreciated, I want to do it tomorow as the deadline is up. please excuse my spelling by the way

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Brief update and a question from me ;

 

O.K. I am an advantage gold customer claiming charges back over the last 6 years a total of 118 different charges totalling £ 3763. i have then added interest myself (not using spreadsheet) at a rate of 1.22% per month (standard credit zone rate) this totals £ 833.

 

So I have just filled in a claim at MCOL which should have been begun to be processed this morning. I made a mistake - when i sent off my prelim letter/ LBA etc. I totalled the charges up to the end of each month and submitted those details on my schedule. I then read up about what would be the likely response from their solicitors Corbetts - requesting more info or a brakdown of charges etc. So I went back through the statements and wrote down every single charge, the amount, what it was for etc. This is when I found two mistakes I had made previously to the tune of about 25 quid - Silly me

 

Anyway I have now typed up a fully comprehensive list of all charges it looks very neat and fills 3 sheets of A4, the new revised totals I put on my MCOL claim.

 

Question : Should I now send the new very comprehensive and more accurate schedule straight to CORBETTS with a covering letter in anticipation that they are likely to ask for it later anyway ? ?

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As long as the amounts on your MCOL are accurate the previous error shouldn't present any sort of problem. Bear in mind that Natwest ALREADY KNOW how much they have charged you.

 

With regards to contacting Cobbetts in advance - definitely don't do that. There are several cases now where Natwest have kept things in house so I would advise that you do nothing further until you get a response to your MCOL. It will probably be the standard defence and CPR Part 18 request so wait for it and see what they say.

 

Paul

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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Thanks again Paul that has set my mind at rest. I read on here somewhere that someone was sending their revised schedule to the Northampton county court but I dont know, I think I will sit tight in the knowledge that I have the info here at my fingertips should they request it.

 

I dont hold much hope in getting my money this side of xmas but never mind I knew it would not be a 5 minute job from the outset. If i get board of waiting I can start my claim on HSBC ! !

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If i get board of waiting I can start my claim on HSBC ! !

 

 

Are you male or female blue snail?

Advice given is either my experience or my opinion and is given without liability. If in doubt, consult a qualified professional.

If you PM me for advice I will only reply in your own thread

 

Never under estimate your ability. I won over £17,000!

For the full story - look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/NatWest-bank/17630-thecobbettslayer-NatWest.html

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  • 1 month later...

Blue snail here. I couldnt find my own thread so i started a new one, sorry !

 

Ok here we go . . . Today as expected on the last day of the deadline I received Cobbetts defence, I am struggling with the legal language. Its quite short and appears to refer only to the particulars of claim. There is no mention of PART 18, or allocation questionaire or which track the claim would take. I have retyped it here verbatim ;

 

1) .This defence is filed and served without prejudice to the right of the defendant to apply for summary judgement in respect of and/or to strike out the p.o.c.

 

2) without prejudice to the non-admission set out in the foregoing paragraph, if and to the extent that the claimant proves the allegation that the defendant debited charges to his bank a/c , insofar as such charges were dibited on a date or dates more than six years prior to the issue of this claim, any remedy in respect of the same, whether damages, restitution or otherwise, is barred by the operation of the limitation act 1980 and/or the doctrine of laches and the defendant will apply to strike out this aspect of the claim and/or summery judgement.

 

3) The defendant is embarrassed by the lack of particularity pleaded in the p.o.c. to the extent that the p.o.c. fail to disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the defendant in particular ;

3.1 The p.o.c. set out no facts indicating what the claim is about, are incoherent and do not disclose any legally recognisable claim against the defendant.

 

4) the defendant invites the claimant to remedy the above. In the event that the claimant fails to so so within 14 adys of the service of the defence then the defendant will apply to the court for an order to strike out the p.o.c.

 

5) the defendant reserves the right to plead further to the p.o.c. once and if the claiment properly particularises the same. in the meantime, it is denied that the claiment is entitled to the relaif claimed or any releif whether as pleaded or at all.

 

 

My questions are if anyone can please help : I didnt put hardle any detail in the p.o.c. in my mcol and I realised this was wrong shortly after I did it so I can put more detail in but do I just send it to them in a letter ? ?

 

I have a good idea what to include in the letter but is there anything that I shouldnt mention ? I dont want to ramble too much in the response.

 

Also do i send a copy to the court ?

 

Why havent I been sent a A.Q. or will i get one soon ?

 

I have a more detailed breakdown of charges (schedule) now should I sent that as well ? ?

 

 

Any help whatsoever greatfully received ! !

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hi bluesnail

if you go into users CP at the top of every page and click on subscribed threads, you will be able to find your original thread

im no good on the legal stuff, but if you had used the POC in the library, then you shouldnt have had any problems , seems like they might have a point, but thats only my opinion

Bob and sue

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thanks rbrears thats a huge help. I had done everything so carefully up to the point of filling in my mcol then I just fluffed it ! I read the small claims pack but I didnt find the mcol details in the templates section until after I had gone through with it so I was annoyed with myself. Anyway I think I now have the right info to do a revised p.o.c.

 

I know this is a very simple trivial question but on the covering letter from cobblers it says " please acknowledge receipt " how exactly do I do that ? Do i phone cobblers or write to them or write to the court ? Or can I do it online on the mcol site ? ? I know its a dumb question but thanks anyway.

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blue snail here again still slightly confused ;

 

I have a letter ready to type up that runs allong similar lines to the threads ive been reading from 'natwesttookmymoney' , charleyspencer and rbrears . The letter contains basicly a revised and far more detailed p.o.c.

 

The question is do I just send a copy to the court and a copy to cobbetts, Im confused because I read somewhere that you are effectively doing another p.o.c. and you have to pay again. I also read that If you send it to the court they will somehow sanction it and create a sealed copy which they send back to you for you to then send to cobbetts ???

 

As i said i have formulated the letter ready to type up and i am happy that it contains all the relevant info im just not sure what to send where and when.

 

As ever any help greatfully received ! and thanks to all who have helped in the past

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The question is do I just send a copy to the court and a copy to cobbetts,

Yes.

 

Im confused because I read somewhere that you are effectively doing another p.o.c. and you have to pay again. I also read that If you send it to the court they will somehow sanction it and create a sealed copy which they send back to you for you to then send to cobbetts ???

This is if you file an amendment to your claim, but you shouldn't have to do this since Cobbetts in their defence 'invites the claimant to remedy the above. In the event that the claimant fails to so so within 14 adys of the service of the defence then the defendant will apply to the court for an order to strike out the p.o.c.' effectively agreeing to you submitting fuller POC's.

 

Cobbetts can't strike out the claim, only a judge can and if that happened you would be given notice to correct it before it was actually struck out.

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Thanks again Michael Browne. I shal put the letter in the post tomorow morning and see what happens after christmas. I started my claim in October thinking origionally I may get some money before xmas, never mind I expect it will be late January now but its well worth the wait.

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Thanks again Michael Browne. I shal put the letter in the post tomorow morning and see what happens after christmas. I started my claim in October thinking origionally I may get some money before xmas, never mind I expect it will be late January now but its well worth the wait.

 

 

I take it you are joking ?

Cobbetts are not known to pay in 2 months......in fact your user name and them have more in common than you might think !:rolleyes:

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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