abused discounted oyster card, if convicted/sentenced in court, consequence?

[imregretful]

Hi all;There is no excuses here, I was wrong using other's oyster card, so please kindly don't judge on what has already happened. I got caught yesterday by TFL inspector and am still at early stage of waiting for the prosecution letter,

 

I am just planning for the worst and hope to prepare what need to be done. I have read through many threads here and got some ideas on what will happened, and as the first time potential crimial, I have some additional queries.

Pre-court:

* 1. I was in panic status and was also under pressure as I was late for work, so not all the information provided to the TFL inspector were properly processed by my brain, but I have already signed it as I had to run, can I still adjust/confess my statements?

 

* 2.Would I need to inform my current HR about the offense, or the prosecution when I received the letter?

 

* 3.And I still allowed to travel business and personally before attending the court and even after?

 

* 4. If I am leaving the country for good prior receiving the summons, what will happen? understanding most of all TFL prosecutions are unlikely settle out of court, can I ask they to move the dates forwards?

 

* 5. What impact would it have the card owner, apart from the card being suspened.

 

* 6. I understand under certain circumstances, the court might consider a waver on crimial record, but give some sort of provisional discharges instead, where could I find some information on it?

 

* 7. would there be any recommendations on legal advisory services?

Post-court, if I was convicted and was crimial recorded.

* 8. Would I need to inform my current HR? and how likely can they terminate my contract with this type of offense? or would court?

 

* 9. Visa related, what impact might have this type of crimial records on my visa in the uk, will I be deported? will I be refused to re-entry the country? what impact would it have on my future visa applications? as well as tourist visas to other countries such as US/ Canada?

 

* 10. I would hope to find out a bit more employability with this type of crimial recod, there were some article here on when the conviction is spent, what about beforehand?

 

I am not saying fare evasion isn't a serious crime, but just in comparison to others like murder etc, would to be considered the same?I know some of the questions might be answered in other similar cases, but just wish to reconfirm.

 

Thank you all in advance.

Edited August 14, 2012 by imregretful

[imregretful]

Note, I am not sure I can re-format my post so that paragraphs are separated and questions are in bullets, sorry about that.

[honeybee13]

Hello there. I'll format your post this time to help the guys, but next time try clicking on the Edit Post button, bottom right of the relevant post.

 

My best, HB

[honeybee13]

Hi all;There is no excuses here, I was wrong using other's oyster card, so please kindly don't judge on what has already happened. I got caught yesterday by TFL inspector and am still at early stage of waiting for the prosecution letter,

 

I am just planning for the worst and hope to prepare what need to be done. I have read through many threads here and got some idea what will happened, and as the first time potential crimial, I have some additional queries.Pre-court:

 

* 1. I was in panic status and was also under pressure as I was late for work, so not all the information provided to the TFL inspector were properly processed by my brain, but I have already signed it as I had to run, can I still adjust/confess my statements?

 

* 2.Would I need to inform my current HR about the offense, or the prosecution when I received the letter?

 

* 3.And I still allowed to travel business and personally before attending the court and even after?

 

* 4. If I am leaving the country for good prior receiving the summons, what will happen? understanding most of all TFL prosecutions are unlikely settle out of court, can I ask they to move the dates forwards?

 

* 5. What impact would it have the card owner, apart from the card being suspened.

 

* 6. I understand under certain circumstances, the court might consider a waver on crimial record, but give some sort of provisional discharges instead, where could I find some information on it?

 

* 7. would there be any recommendations on legal advisory services?Post-court, if I was convicted and was crimial recorded.

 

* 8. Would I need to inform my current HR? and how likely can they terminate my contract with this type of offense? or would court?

 

* 9. Visa related, what impact might have this type of crimial records on my visa in the uk, will I be deported? will I be refused to re-entry the country? what impact would it have on my future visa applications? as well as tourist visas to other countries such as US/ Canada?

 

* 10. I would hope to find out a bit more employability with this type of crimial recod, there were some article here on when the conviction is spent, what about beforehand?

 

I am not saying fare evasion isn't a serious crime, but just in comparison to others like murder etc, would to be considered the same?I know some of the questions might be answered in other similar cases, but just wish to reconfirm.

 

Thank you all in advance.

 

Phew, well I've scanned what you've said and there are a lot of questions. I've numbered them and hope it will help if anyone feels able to start answering some all of these.

 

I have a couple of comments/queries that might start things moving a bit. But I certainly can't answer all of the points, hopefully the guys will see this and try to help.

 

Firstly, I'm guessing that you might not have English as your first language, would I be right please? And I have to say that Oyster card misuse is not well viewed by TfL or some of the guys here.

 

1. Did you sign a statement under caution or something else? And did you tell part of the truth or adjust the story?

 

2. I don't think you would normally tell HR, but what does your contract or terms of employment say?

 

3. I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't be able to travel. I would have said as long as you pay the right fare, it would be OK.

 

4. I'll post a link to a similar thread that's just started here. The court date isn't your choice, but you may be able to negotiate before it gets to court. But you could be found guilty in your absence.

 

5. The cardholder is your partner, I believe. Are they leaving the country with you? And did they know you had the card?

 

6. People have asked about discharges before, but I don't think I've seen a case where one was given. However, quite a lot of people don't come back and tell us what happened to them. You would need to look for threads about Freedom Pass misuse, if that's what you had.

 

7. I don't understand. The time for legal advice is before the case rather than when a judgement has been made, as I understand it. If you are thinking of legal advice before court, we can talk about that, but you may not need it. Are you able to pay a lawyer?

 

8. As above, your employment details should tell you if you could be sacked for this. I don't think a court can tell your employer to sack you.

 

9. I don't know about visas. I think the other thread had a post where someone thought that a criminal record could be a problem for a US visa.

 

10 . I'm not sure what you're asking here.

 

I hope this might get things started and that the guys will let me know if I've said anything daft, when they're able to get here.

 

HB

[firstclassx]

Quite a few questions there!

 

Basically you can continue travelling, you aren't banned. Make sure you have a valid ticket that belongs to you though.

 

If you are convicted, which is still 4-6 months away, it is entirely up to you whether you tell your HR Department or not. If you don't tell them, and they find out, could it be worse?

 

If you don't turn up at court for whatever reason, you are assumed "not guilty" and the case is heard on the prosecution evidence, in your absence. You will probably lose, be convicted, fined and given a criminal record.

 

I think you are probably wasting your time trying to negotiate with TfL over this one. When they write to you, let us know so we can consider your options. TfL usually prosecute unless there are EXCEPTIONAL circumstances. Unlike some of the other rail operators, TfL aren't interested in the financial aspect of prosecutions.

 

You won't be deported from the UK for being convicted of this, (unless you have extremely strict visa conditions or things like a suspended sentence already). It will probably be quite damaging for travel to the likes of the USA though, as it is effectively fraud.

 

The usual punishment for the offence, assuming a guilty plea, and attend in person is a fine of around £350, costs £150, criminal record.

 

I believe that this offence could fall under the category of "fraud" so perhaps some (future) employers would also take that view.

[Old-CodJA]

Phew, well I've scanned what you've said and there are a lot of questions. I've numbered them and hope it will help if anyone feels able to start answering some all of these.

 

I have a couple of comments/queries that might start things moving a bit. But I certainly can't answer all of the points, hopefully the guys will see this and try to help.

 

Firstly, I'm guessing that you might not have English as your first language, would I be right please? And I have to say that Oyster card misuse is not well viewed by TfL or some of the guys here.

 

1. Did you sign a statement under caution or something else? And did you tell part of the truth or adjust the story?

 

2. I don't think you would normally tell HR, but what does your contract or terms of employment say?

 

3. I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't be able to travel. I would have said as long as you pay the right fare, it would be OK.

 

4. I'll post a link to a similar thread that's just started here. The court date isn't your choice, but you may be able to negotiate before it gets to court. But you could be found guilty in your absence.

 

5. The cardholder is your partner, I believe. Are they leaving the country with you? And did they know you had the card?

 

6. People have asked about discharges before, but I don't think I've seen a case where one was given. However, quite a lot of people don't come back and tell us what happened to them. You would need to look for threads about Freedom Pass misuse, if that's what you had.

 

7. I don't understand. The time for legal advice is before the case rather than when a judgement has been made, as I understand it. If you are thinking of legal advice before court, we can talk about that, but you may not need it. Are you able to pay a lawyer?

 

8. As above, your employment details should tell you if you could be sacked for this. I don't think a court can tell your employer to sack you.

 

9. I don't know about visas. I think the other thread had a post where someone thought that a criminal record could be a problem for a US visa.

 

10 . I'm not sure what you're asking here.

 

I hope this might get things started and that the guys will let me know if I've said anything daft, when they're able to get here.

 

HB

 

 

Right, here's my responses, answers in bold type

 

1. Did you sign a statement under caution or something else?

 

It does not matter whether you signed the notes of your statement or not in the sense that even if you did not sign, the reporting inspector can still submit the report for action. If you signed to say that the notes are a true account of the interview, it becomes something that is difficult to deny later.

 

And did you tell part of the truth or adjust the story?

 

If you were not entirely truthful, you need to start facing up to the likelihood of being prosecuted for a deliberate fraud in relation to your journey.

 

2. I don't think you would normally tell HR, but what does your contract or terms of employment say?

 

There is no need to tell them anything until you have been convicted by a Court of law.

 

3. I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't be able to travel. I would have said as long as you pay the right fare, it would be OK.

 

Whilst conviction of the offence of "intent to avoid a fare" is a serious matter, it is a criminal conviction, but is rarely sufficient on its' own to create continuous major problems in the long run.

 

4. I'll post a link to a similar thread that's just started here. The court date isn't your choice, but you may be able to negotiate before it gets to court. But you could be found guilty in your absence.

 

HB is right, but don't do anything yet. This is a very fresh report. It will very probably be some weeks before you receive any letter from TfL so do not do anything until then. When you get the letter come back and let us know exactly what they allege.

 

5. The cardholder is your partner, I believe. Are they leaving the country with you? And did they know you had the card?

 

If your partner knew you were using their season ticket (on Oyster) they might be charged with an offence too. If you are leaving the country and if you get a letter from TfL, the case could be heard in your absence and could result in a conviction under S.5 (3) a of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889), which might create problems for you if you were to return in the future.

 

6. People have asked about discharges before, but I don't think I've seen a case where one was given. However, quite a lot of people don't come back and tell us what happened to them. You would need to look for threads about Freedom Pass misuse, if that's what you had.

 

Yes, both absolute and conditional discharges have been imposed by Magistrates in the past, but these are always in a direct response to the specific circumstances in the individual case heard. You cannot rely on either as a precedent.

 

7. I don't understand. The time for legal advice is before the case rather than when a judgement has been made, as I understand it. If you are thinking of legal advice before court, we can talk about that, but you may not need it. Are you able to pay a lawyer?

 

Spot-on advice there from HB, if this goes to a threat of prosecution and if you are unable to resolve it before issue of a Summons, you would be best to seek qualified legal advice before it is necessary to attend Court

 

8. As above, your employment details should tell you if you could be sacked for this. I don't think a court can tell your employer to sack you.

 

Absolutely right. The Court can only impose a penalty such as a fine if they feel the case has been correctly brought and the evidence supports conviction. Whether someone wishes to employ you or not has nothing to do with a Court

 

9. I don't know about visas. I think the other thread had a post where someone thought that a criminal record could be a problem for a US visa.

 

I would only worry about that IF you are convicted. That's a long way off yet.

 

10 . I'm not sure what you're asking here.

 

Neither am I.

[imregretful]

Re HBThank you for adjusting the format for me but I was still unable to break my paragraphs?

 

I understand I am in trouble and am not trying to justify myself in anyway, what is wrong is wrong, just hope for some help and some ideas on where I stand, and sorry for my bad english.

 

1. Did you sign a statement under caution or something else? And did you tell part of the truth or adjust the story?

 

Re: I am not sure what I have signed, but it was a little booklet carry by the inspector, and it was partly true and partly story. I thought I would just get fined.

 

2. I don't think you would normally tell HR, but what does your contract or terms of employment say?

 

Re: I will look it up tonight.

 

3. I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't be able to travel. I would have said as long as you pay the right fare, it would be OK.

 

Re: sorry for the confusion here, by travel, I meant in and out of UK, to other European or other international destinations.

 

4. I'll post a link to a similar thread that's just started here. The court date isn't your choice, but you may be able to negotiate before it gets to court. But you could be found guilty in your absence.

 

Re: I don't think I will have negotiation power here, so basically I won't be able to present in court? would you like share me the relevant thread?

 

5. The cardholder is your partner, I believe. Are they leaving the country with you? And did they know you had the card?

 

Re: no, the cardholder isn't a partner, but a friend who had left the country, I initially thought the expired student oyster card can be used as a normal card, my own mistake really.

 

6. People have asked about discharges before, but I don't think I've seen a case where one was given. However, quite a lot of people don't come back and tell us what happened to them. You would need to look for threads about Freedom Pass misuse, if that's what you had.

 

Re: mine was a student oyster card, but I guess it would be viewed the same anyway?

 

7. I don't understand. The time for legal advice is before the case rather than when a judgement has been made, as I understand it. If you are thinking of legal advice before court, we can talk about that, but you may not need it. Are you able to pay a lawyer?

 

Re: Eventhough I am still awaiting for the letter, I think it will most likely end up in court, so yes, I am looking for some legal advise before court, would there be some community legal advisor instead of laywer?

 

8. As above, your employment details should tell you if you could be sacked for this. I don't think a court can tell your employer to sack you.

 

Re: I am in one of the industry will crimial record would have huge impact even when it is spent, so I would really hope for some information on it.

 

9. I don't know about visas. I think the other thread had a post where someone thought that a criminal record could be a problem for a US visa.

 

Re: I don't actually need to apply for visa going into US, but just wondering if I would be reject to enter the country with this type of crimial record.

 

10 . I'm not sure what you're asking here.

 

Re: So, if I am fined and am got a crimial record, I will have to state so if I change jobs, would there be information on job hunting with crimial records?

 

Sorry for my english disability, this one of the most informative and helpful site I have encountered so far, very much appreciated.

Edited August 14, 2012 by honeybee13
Spacing.

[imregretful]

Quite a few questions there!

 

Basically you can continue travelling, you aren't banned. Make sure you have a valid ticket that belongs to you though.

 

If you are convicted, which is still 4-6 months away, it is entirely up to you whether you tell your HR Department or not. If you don't tell them, and they find out, could it be worse?

 

If you don't turn up at court for whatever reason, you are assumed "not guilty" and the case is heard on the prosecution evidence, in your absence. You will probably lose, be convicted, fined and given a criminal record.

 

I think you are probably wasting your time trying to negotiate with TfL over this one. When they write to you, let us know so we can consider your options. TfL usually prosecute unless there are EXCEPTIONAL circumstances. Unlike some of the other rail operators, TfL aren't interested in the financial aspect of prosecutions.

 

You won't be deported from the UK for being convicted of this, (unless you have extremely strict visa conditions or things like a suspended sentence already). It will probably be quite damaging for travel to the likes of the USA though, as it is effectively fraud.

 

The usual punishment for the offence, assuming a guilty plea, and attend in person is a fine of around £350, costs £150, criminal record.

 

I believe that this offence could fall under the category of "fraud" so perhaps some (future) employers would also take that view.

 

Thank you so much, firstclassx, I think I will most likely being prosecuted, when you say TFL are not interested in the financial aspect of prosecutions, do you mean, they would prefer to take you to court and sentence you with crimial records?Would you have some more legal information on offence under catergory of fraud, please.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I will try to edit this when I have time.

 

A couple of things: you may have a community law centre [not sure if that's the right term] near you, but you would probably need someone with knowledge of fare evasion or they might make things worse.

 

OC has clarified about what might happen if you want to re-enter the UK, but I thought you were leaving forever? I have a feeling that the US is less tolerant about criminal convictions.

 

Are you saying that your job requires CRB checks? I hope someone will know about this.

 

HB

 

PS thank you to OC for working with my questions. Great advice as ever.

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you so much, firstclassx, I think I will most likely being prosecuted, when you say TFL are not interested in the financial aspect of prosecutions, do you mean, they would prefer to take you to court and sentence you with crimial records?Would you have some more legal information on offence under catergory of fraud, please.

 

You have made clear that this is something that only happened this week.

 

I really do think that you are jumping the gun a bit. Wait until you get the letter from TfL.

[imregretful]

Dear Old Cod JA:Thanks you so much for your very advise! So are you suggesting I should wait till I have received the letter before I do anything, even though I think they very likely so prosecute me and issue me a summons, after reading many of the threads here?On Q10; I just hope to find out what would happen to my life if I was convicted, in terms of employement, travelling etc, so was hoping for some documents on it.

[imregretful]

Hi HB, yes OC is great, so are you; and to both of you, I know there is nothing I could do really before getting the letter, but I knew it was my mistake, so I am just hope to be ready to face it, and be prepared for the worst. I do plan to leave the country for the long term, but just in case I will have come back for work/personal trips.

[imregretful]

You have made clear that this is something that only happened this week.

 

I really do think that you are jumping the gun a bit. Wait until you get the letter from TfL.

 

Thanks OC, maybe I am jumping the gun, maybe I am not, it is just I am still shaking and in tears as I read articles and replies here. I don't know why I have got myself into such a big trouble just because I am being lazy. Do you think I write to TFL to explain and clarify the notes the inspector has taken done?

[honeybee13]

Here's a link to a thread about someone who's leaving the country that might help you. Not the same offence though.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?361647-Adult-travelling-on-child-travel-card

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

Dear Old Cod JA:Thanks you so much for your very advise! So are you suggesting I should wait till I have received the letter before I do anything, even though I think they very likely so prosecute me and issue me a summons, after reading many of the threads here?On Q10; I just hope to find out what would happen to my life if I was convicted, in terms of employement, travelling etc, so was hoping for some documents on it.

 

Yes, there is always a chance, no matter how smal,l that the report might fail to be processed. Why jump the gun and guarantee that it is?

 

Wait until you get a letter, then you will have the correct reference allocated to your case and can act more efficiently.

[imregretful]

Yes, there is always a chance, no matter how smal,l that the report might fail to be processed. Why jump the gun and guarantee that it is?

 

Wait until you get a letter, then you will have the correct reference allocated to your case and can act more efficiently.

 

Noted, OC, thank you for your advise.So before I received summons or even the prosecution letter, I should be able to travel aboard freely and re-entry the uk without issues? correct?

[Old-CodJA]

Noted, OC, thank you for your advise.So before I received summons or even the prosecution letter, I should be able to travel aboard freely and re-entry the uk without issues? correct?

 

Yes

[wtlh]

If you are using an EXPIRED student card used to belong to someone who is no longer in the country, would you be able to show that you paid for the season ticket on the card and you have used the ticket since the purchase?

 

An expired student card no longer have any discount and any ticket bought will be full price.

 

If you can proof (say credit card records etc) that only you have been using the card and you have paid the full price fare, then I think you have a reasonable case to present to TFL.

 

The most likely action TFL will take is to charge you with 5.3a RRA fare evasion, which requires the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt you had the intention to avoid paying the correct fare. From my personal experience with them, they will most likely to proceed doing so regardless your pleas etc, UNLESS of course that you provide them with hard evidence that it would be very hard for them to succeed to prove

Your intention to cheat. So please keep this in mind when you correspond with them in the future.

 

The key question here is: is the student card EXPIRED? And DID you pay for the full priced ticket and used it solely by yourself?